How can late model costs be reduced

[ptown]

Starting a new thread to directly address the out of control cost of running a super late model.

I'm not an expert but let's start by getting the body rules back to the way they were in the 90s, plus these new bodies are just plain ugly.

[RCJ]

Motors are the biggest expense

[chad1888]

no shocks or springs behind the axle tubes, motor cost will then take care of themselves.

[DipStik]

.......Boycott!

[vande077]

This is an issue across all divisions of all racing (it's not just late model related).

Costs increase every year across all forms of motorsports from go-karts to F1. No one can control costs although every division thinks they can.

Controlling costs should not be what the promotors and sanctioning bodies focus on. They need to focus on growing the fanbase and putting more butts in the seats. This allows them to increase purses to help offset those increases in the cost to compete the car owners are having.

Unfortunately, most "promotors" do very little promoting to get more fans in the stands and thus purses are stagnant or regressing.

[superstock79]

Everyone thinking they need 6 new, $50k + chassis per year would help with the cost...

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

no shocks or springs behind the axle tubes, motor cost will then take care of themselves.

Not true. That doesn't matter.

[Cardirt0]

Cant Will NOT Happen, Greed will not let it happen ,Once you lost control you cant get it back........Nascar Tried and now they have to cause all the money is leaving the sport... They just cut back to Sat and Sunday to save money.. Do nothing on Friday now.. Big names driver are on there way out...Big time pay days are Going Going Gone for drivers...Indy Car is Dead they just dont know it...Nascar and IND racing use to have 10 to 15 cars fighting for the last spot...Nascar maybe 1 car goes home Now.. and the IND cars only race do they get 33 cars is the IND 500 most the time only 22 cars show up... Times are changing and its not coming back....

[Crashmagnet]

You CAN NOT let the inmates run the asylum. A new basic stock car needs developed, one tire, steel body shocks, and a common sense reasonable little motor. It's just laughable and sad what Saturday stock car racing has been allowed to turn into. If you let the people that make money from racing decide what racing is going to be then you get what we have now. We have a few wicked fast super technical racing machines blasting around a little old dirt track a 100 feet apart from each other.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Everyone of these answers has merit. The chassis of today is were cost have gotten crazy. One. They can't take any bumping because something will either break or bend. Two. You almost have to have a engineer today. Chassis simulators, shock dyno's, spring rate checkers. All add up to one thing. They need all of the above to hook up the 800 + HP in the motor they bolt in. I saw a fairly recent pic of Bloomquist shop. In the background I counter 8 or 9 motors. I'm not sure if they were all his, but come on. You eliminate the rear suspension all together in today's cars and go with KISS. Torsion bar, coil over in front of the axle, no more double 5th coils with a chain pulling the center mass of the chassis down. Give them all a 4 " deck spoiler with no wikerbill. Then see if you need those monster motors. You save on motors you save on chassis. The cars are going to look the same, they are the most popular class of racing today, then will see who can and cannot drive a race car. A top of the line motor and chassis alone are knocking on 100k. And that gentleman is stupid. Cya at the world. Millions of dollars will be there for our enjoyment.

[chad1888]

Not true. That doesn't matter.

how does it not matter, you take all the traction out of the car by moving shock in front, you may need 900 hp 430, at the beginning but they guy with a good solid 380 to 400 making about 800 is going to drive by you in the feature everynight.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

how does it not matter, you take all the traction out of the car by moving shock in front, you may need 900 hp 430, at the beginning but they guy with a good solid 380 to 400 making about 800 is going to drive by you in the feature everynight.

The traction doesn't have to leave the car because the spring is in front. It is a simple geometry problem. We have come too far in understanding to let 1995 kill the car.

[chad1888]

The traction doesn't have to leave the car because the spring is in front. It is a simple geometry problem. We have come too far in understanding to let 1995 kill the car.

I agree, but would we rather have 1995 kill our car or our understanding kill our sport. i know as well as other you change this rule you will have many people laying on shop floors trying to figure out how to get the traction back. think about where our understanding has gotten us. started when the spread bore motor came out it should have been outlawed before it got going. so now with 900hp or more we have to figure out how to get it on the ground, which led to better rear traction. then led to trying to seal the car off on the nose for air so they will steer and shocks that will hold a house down in a hurricane. and it hasnt stopped since. i understand our sport is about innovation, i mean there was a couple of cars built that were 4wd, so you just can't stop it, but it just seems like a simple step to help things by moving the shock and spring in front.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I agree, but would we rather have 1995 kill our car or our understanding kill our sport. i know as well as other you change this rule you will have many people laying on shop floors trying to figure out how to get the traction back. think about where our understanding has gotten us. started when the spread bore motor came out it should have been outlawed before it got going. so now with 900hp or more we have to figure out how to get it on the ground, which led to better rear traction. then led to trying to seal the car off on the nose for air so they will steer and shocks that will hold a house down in a hurricane. and it hasnt stopped since. i understand our sport is about innovation, i mean there was a couple of cars built that were 4wd, so you just can't stop it, but it just seems like a simple step to help things by moving the shock and spring in front.

I agree about the wide bore motors. I just think that rule would have little long term effect. I am 100% confident I would be back to speed in a couple weeks.

[ride height]

Here is reality...... I dont care if you held a big wheel tricycle race in a wal mart parking lot.....there will be people show up in stacker haulers with big wheel trikes you wont freakin believe. The people with the money are going to ruin it no matter what. We raced crates when they first came out....it was a ball. Then it started.....big money...cheating out the wazoo...no teching. Now its totally dead in our area.

[Illtsate32]

Everyone of these answers has merit. The chassis of today is were cost have gotten crazy. One. They can't take any bumping because something will either break or bend. Two. You almost have to have a engineer today. Chassis simulators, shock dyno's, spring rate checkers. All add up to one thing. They need all of the above to hook up the 800 + HP in the motor they bolt in. I saw a fairly recent pic of Bloomquist shop. In the background I counter 8 or 9 motors. I'm not sure if they were all his, but come on. You eliminate the rear suspension all together in today's cars and go with KISS. Torsion bar, coil over in front of the axle, no more double 5th coils with a chain pulling the center mass of the chassis down. Give them all a 4 " deck spoiler with no wikerbill. Then see if you need those monster motors. You save on motors you save on chassis. The cars are going to look the same, they are the most popular class of racing today, then will see who can and cannot drive a race car. A top of the line motor and chassis alone are knocking on 100k. And that gentleman is stupid. Cya at the world. Millions of dollars will be there for our enjoyment.Good post..the shocks are insane with the bump stops and what not..it has taking driving out of the equation..I would say put them on 4 hockey pucks but im sure juicing would run rampant..but 5k shock package prob even more is making the guys who arent rich say the hell with it when they are getting out run by drivers who they know they are better than...

[Josh Bayko]

Every rule ever created to save racers money ends up costing them more in the long run. That's something to consider.

[old17ford]

Down here we run llms and there are some teams that dont care what they pay to win they just have to win at all cost .I have said before that big money teams have killed racing for the die hard racer . I think down here we need a shock and spring rule . Everybody cant buy the new trick thing every mouth .

[ClampedUp]

Every rule ever created to save racers money ends up costing them more in the long run. That's something to consider.

You always say that. So what's your input on how to save dirt late model racing??
Just take a look at the pi$$ poor super late model counts at your area tracks PPMS and Lernerville. Other than Stateline and Eriez the super late model counts flat out $uck in the Western Pa. area.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Lernerville cans the super lates in 2018 and brings in the Rush crate lates.

[Tireguy17]

I do not understand why chassis prices have ballooned out of control in recent years, other than the simple fact that chassis builders have all chosen to simply raise prices. Yes some manufacturers are using some "exotic" tubing, but for the most part, today's chassis is still just a bunch of tubing and brackets like it was 10 years ago. Yet pricing has increased considerably.

[Josh Bayko]

You always say that. So what's your input on how to save dirt late model racing??
Just take a look at the pi$$ poor super late model counts at your area tracks PPMS and Lernerville. Other than Stateline and Eriez the super late model counts flat out $uck in the Western Pa. area.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Lernerville cans the super lates in 2018 and brings in the Rush crate lates.

Super late model racing in general doesn't need saving. Regional shows and specials do pretty well.

Weekly racing has big problems though. One thing that definitely affects weekly racing in a negative manner is the proliferation of specials. On any given weekend, within a few hours, there a special show paying a solid purse somewhere, and that's where the cars go.

And Lernerville isn't dropping supers for next year. Theyre not freaking out or anything. Sprints went though car counts like this just a couple years ago, and now they're back to pretty healthy. Car counts there go in cycles, and they have for years.

[billetbirdcage]

Here is part of the problem with any rule you make: YOU CAN’T UNLEARN TECHNOLOGY

Think about that for a second, no matter how a rule is written there will be a way around it or another way to do it that likely costs more money.

Example: Modifieds and there steel non adjustable shock rule. Shock tech has came a long ways over the years so that rule might have saved some dollars originally, but the tech was out there in the high end aluminum shocks. So the shock manufacturers just made a take apart steel shock with all the same tech and they now cost 425.00 and you can’t adjust it. So not you got mod guys that have 10 shocks for the car at 425.00 instead of having just 4 at 800.00 each. Look at a USMTS guy before they could run adjustable shocks, many had 30 or more shocks hanging on the wall. Not saying you needed that many but if you got a couple different RF shocks and a couple different ones per corner it’s easy to end up with a minimum of 6 to 12 shocks.

On to the LR behind: This rule won’t change anything. We had a discussion with a promoter (very well known and a former racer) about this at a private test, he was of the opinion that doing away with this would slow the cars down and help. I told him that I could remove the shock/spring off the back right now and could run about the same lap times. He didn’t believe me, so I proved it too him by using the transponders to get lap times and came in and moved the spring to the front and reran the car. Now granted we happened to be testing something that allowed this really easy, but we ran within hundredths of what we was running before and there was 8 LM’s there and we was 2nd quick out of the cars that where there and several of them was nationally touring guys. It’s just motion ratio and spring rate, I can mount the spring about where ever and will the right changes can make the car react the same as behind the axle.

Some rules will shuffle around the speed of the cars and who is fast as guys redo and figure out what they need to do to get the car back where it was but it’s just temporary IMO.

The vast majority of the people that left the sport can't afford the engines anymore. It's not so much the cost of the engine as it's the freshening costs to run one. The average freshening on a LM engine today is around 10K for 1200 laps, so it costs around 10.00 a lap just in engine costs and nothing else. People wonder why guys don't run all the laps, well a 50 lapper cost you 500.00 just on engine costs if you don't break anything.

I don't have the answer but the engine costs are the number one reason, IMO. Somehow get rid of the need for 900HP, most likely taking away the traction and aero is a start

[RCJ]

1.Motor
2.tires and wheels
3.Shocks
4.Fuel (car and Rig)
5.General maintenance
6.Body
You could make rules to reduce the cost of each one ,but why.''Run what you brung and hope you brung enough" has always been the draw of L/M racing.The toughness and level of skill is what makes it so special if you do succeed.

[GRT32]

The bodies are out of control. Bodies that were run 20 years ago, 1 shock per wheel and a smaller spoiler with hard rear tires will take care of alot of the engine problems

[ptown]

The bodies are out of control. Bodies that were run 20 years ago, 1 shock per wheel and a smaller spoiler with hard rear tires will take care of alot of the engine problems

I like everything you say except tires, leave those as is and let them groove and sipe.

[No_Weak_Links]

I with you guys on a lot of things, but how on earth is changing the way you bend sheet metal going to change the amount of money a body costs?.....and I have never heard of body prices out of hand and ruining the sport.

[fastford]

man , this thread has about depressed me , i might as well put all my crap on racing junk and go fishing because no suggestions on here will help, if all you are worried about is money, then its over, like someones statement about the 3 wheeler race at walmart above , money will still be there and will always have an advantage.

[President Clinton]

8" hard tire and all the $$$ in the world will not matter!!!!!!!

[Barbecueboy]

This is some really good reading guys......I like vandes post concerning promoting......for every great promoter out there , 50 others run it like a motel 6 and just think that turning on the lights still works.

The Jeanie is out of the bottle on the supers, and when they price themselves out of reality finally I'll be just as content watching a great sportsman race.........but for now, I'll pay extra to be there when they come.

[Josh Bayko]

8" hard tire and all the $$$ in the world will not matter!!!!!!!

Tell that to the guys that are spending late model money to run modifieds. There's a reason b-mods are thing now.

[Barbecueboy]

It's across all divisions.......a successful team I'm pretty close with has won multiple track championships and tons of races in the local superstreet class using the same motor ( refreshed each year) and they take care of their stuff.

Motor new was 7k( huge spend for them) but as stated, they take care of their stuff , the driver is smooth and easy on equipment........but in their class like every other ,there are always "those "guys that roll in with a 25k (or more)chassis/motor combo to race for 500 bucks every Saturday night......some of those guys can actually drive, most just have a bigger checkbook and a smaller bottle of talent and the 7k motor is still sitting in victory lane or on the podium more times than not.

And yes Josh, some of the mods that run down our way are every bit as high dollar as some of the late model classes.........

[grt74]

everyone always screams engines, you can buy a piece that will compete with national guys for 15-20,and guys are putting 15 in crates(just insane in my opinion)
i always hear someone say it take 70-90 thousand to build a super today, its just not true, you can buy a new (i cant use chassis names here, so don't ask) chassis 25000(a very well known top piece)engine used 20,shocks(people need to learn more on this as its not as expensive as these shock guys say) and trans, a top of the line piece for 50-55,it can be done
start money and winning purses(so people will to take a chance for the reward) is what it will take, just my 2 cents
facts are facts, have a sensible entry fee and raise the purse to 2000-2500 per week and watch the cars grow, it will happen and most guys running supers that i have talked too are will to pay a reasonable entry fee

[cgrace]

everyone always screams engines, you can buy a piece that will compete with national guys for 15-20,and guys are putting 15 in crates(just insane in my opinion)i always hear someone say it take 70-90 thousand to build a super today, its just not true, you can buy a new (i cant use chassis names here, so don't ask) chassis 25000(a very well known top piece)engine used 20,shocks(people need to learn more on this as its not as expensive as these shock guys say) and trans, a top of the line piece for 50-55,it can be done start money and winning purses(so people will to take a chance for the reward) is what it will take, just my 2 cents facts are facts, have a sensible entry fee and raise the purse to 2000-2500 per week and watch the cars grow, it will happen and most guys running supers that i have talked too are will to pay a reasonable entry feegood post. personally i also think there is too many classes which causes lower car counts in ALL classes.

[Forward Bite]

I think Josh is right about all the special races for late models as a reason fans don't go to weekly late model races. Why should a fan go to weekly shows and watch 10 - 15 late models when he can see a special with 30 - 40 late models or more ?

[roughride]

I think this is actually pretty easy. Remember the wedge era and dwindling car counts? UMP saved late model racing. These bodies are out of control. Look down the front to back they are tunneled out so bad they are very close to big block mod bodies. Lift the nose off the ground a few inches, make the decking be level side to side, and reduce the spoiler to 4 inches or so. The cars would look exactly the same from the stands! And what the crap is wrong with a harder tire rule as long is everyone is on the same thing. Sipe it, grind it, I don't care. No soaking or treatments as I think that is a big part of rubbered up tracks. That Batesville race was a fiasco if you ask me and it can and will happen again. Dirt late model races should not be won on pit strategy. Whats next, 10 gallon fuel tanks so we have to have pit stops like NASCRAP?

[STRONGERTHANDIRT]

Great post!!!

[GRT32]

It's not the cost of bending metal, it's about taking the aero affect away so the engines are less effective. The bodies and deck heights are ridiculous.

[B_K]

Look at pictures of cars from a few years ago and now. Guys are basically driving wedge cars again. With the advance of suspension technology and as aero is these cars are now, you can use all the power that overpriced engine can produce. Not to mention the racing has suffered IMO, because you get out of line and the air messes with handling.

Need a nosepiece height rule.
Need to enforce and rewrite body rules.


Racing will always be about $$$ that's just reality. The powers that be need to make these things a little tougher to drive and put more emphasis back on the seat and no so much on all the other stuff.

[Bcollins82]

You want to save it you'll have to take traction away. Period. To take traction away you've got to limit rear axle down travel to take away the mechanical grip attained by it, along with the wedge car aero affect, then get the bodies back in check. Outlawing spread bore motors, allowing springs to be mounted to only one side of the axle, and worrying about tire rules is taking a piss in the wind until these other issues are solved.

[Barbecueboy]

As stated , I'll watch about anything race.......but watching supers and crates run together but scoring them differently is not at the top of the list.......confusing and dangerous in my opinion depending on what track your at.

[Illtsate32]

Also last night they ran the pro 4 race before late models they pull the moisture back up in the track it saved last night from rubbering up in the feature imo..

[Bubstr]

Easy, rob all the sponsors and backers of the cars. As long as they have money, they will spend it to win. Therefore the rest have to spend it to keep up.

Short of making any part illegal that doesn't have a factory part number, I don't think there is anything you can do with the rules to make it cheaper. How do you think a whole car claim rule would go over? lol

My Dad used to say, "The bigger he prize, the bigger the greed. The bigger the greed, the bigger the crime." Buying a championship or even a race win, seems like a crime to a lot of people.

This cost thing has been set in motion in the 50s, with the after market parts and chassis. The only thing we can do is let it play out and see what comes out of the ashes. We will most likely end up with some kind of hobby racing, with hot pockets of racing and nothing everywhere else and maybe a national tour.

The only form of racing, I see growing is the IMCA crate mods. Most new cars are open motor mods backing down because of cost. The small tire makes this possible. The draw back is the tracks will cut purses, because the racers are saving money and they end up in the same money crunch. Much like crate LMs. Although there are high dollar specials, most other purses dropped by a third and savings are no here near a third. The money crunch got worse instead of better. This doesn't account or the missing fans, because the think it's a lesser show.

[a25rjr]

You CAN'T stop technology! There will ALWAYS be teams that spend more money for the most technology!

Put guys like Bloomer in a sportsman lm, and in a short time, he will be competing head to head with the supers!

You guys keep talking about, taking traction away, what do you think the dryslick racetrack is doing in the features?

Technology and money will always buy the most speed!

[Highwayman]

You CAN'T stop technology! There will ALWAYS be teams that spend more money for the most technology!

This part is partially true, some will always spend their last dime and that's their right. What you can do is make those dimes less effective.



You guys keep talking about, taking traction away, what do you think the dryslick racetrack is doing in the features?

Dry slick surface on its own doesn't do much anymore, due to what technology/setup is allowed to be used today. The way they are allowed to run the cars today makes it possible to maintain nearly the same speed all night. More HP than whats needed should be allowed, if you try to go about it with just minimizing HP then you get a bunch of over-hooked go karts(602/604 crates). Agree with me, don't agree with me I don't care. I agree with the guy who said we'll have to let it all burn down and see whats left because the powers that be are selfish, short sighted, greedy and stupid.

Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.

[a25rjr]

[QUOTE=Highwayman;2131048]This part is partially true, some will always spend their last dime and that's their right. What you can do is make those dimes less effective.



Dry slick surface on its own doesn't do much anymore, due to what technology/setup is allowed to be used today. The way they are allowed to run the cars today makes it possible to maintain nearly the same speed all night.

HUH? Go to Race Monitor and compare qualifying, heats , and feature lap times. There usually 2-3 seconds apart!

Plus, go ask a super driver after the feature, how much throttle they were using!

[Illtsate32]

Easy, rob all the sponsors and backers of the cars. As long as they have money, they will spend it to win. Therefore the rest have to spend it to keep up.Short of making any part illegal that doesn't have a factory part number, I don't think there is anything you can do with the rules to make it cheaper. How do you think a whole car claim rule would go over? lolMy Dad used to say, "The bigger he prize, the bigger the greed. The bigger the greed, the bigger the crime." Buying a championship or even a race win, seems like a crime to a lot of people.This cost thing has been set in motion in the 50s, with the after market parts and chassis. The only thing we can do is let it play out and see what comes out of the ashes. We will most likely end up with some kind of hobby racing, with hot pockets of racing and nothing everywhere else and maybe a national tour.The only form of racing, I see growing is the IMCA crate mods. Most new cars are open motor mods backing down because of cost. The small tire makes this possible. The draw back is the tracks will cut purses, because the racers are saving money and they end up in the same money crunch. Much like crate LMs. Although there are high dollar specials, most other purses dropped by a third and savings are no here near a third. The money crunch got worse instead of better. This doesn't account or the missing fans, because the think it's a lesser show.
This part is partially true, some will always spend their last dime and that's their right. What you can do is make those dimes less effective.Dry slick surface on its own doesn't do much anymore, due to what technology/setup is allowed to be used today. The way they are allowed to run the cars today makes it possible to maintain nearly the same speed all night. More HP than whats needed should be allowed, if you try to go about it with just minimizing HP then you get a bunch of over-hooked go karts(602/604 crates). Agree with me, don't agree with me I don't care. I agree with the guy who said we'll have to let it all burn down and see whats left because the powers that be are selfish, short sighted, greedy and stupid. Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it.I agree boys its snowballed into an avalanche and now cant be stopped..let the chips fall and pick up the pieces..aftermarket parts like a arms and such aint bad for you need them now that stock ones are scarce..but local racing needs spec shock rules spec suspension like solid pull bar no 5 coil start there. That shoul equalize high $ motors if they are blowing the tires off the car..