Aero/downforce

[Mike]

Wonder what took these guys so long to see this. Too bad they didn't have the foresight to see where the sport was headed years ago. It's almost like they had tunnel vision and couldn't see what was happening around them. SMH

https://racingnews.co/2017/09/15/steve-francis-dirt-late-model-aerodynamics/amp/

[TerryM]

I love your Sig. #WhoDey

[TerryM]

Good article.

Air is for breathing, not for racing. It's going to be a sad day when Steve Francis retires.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Sounds like he's voicing his opinion out of frustration because he hasn't run all that well this year regardless of body panel measurements, aero and what not.

[Josh Bayko]

Aero is a double edged sword. It is the cheapest speed in racing, however, it tends to lead to raised expenses in other areas of the car.

[Mike]

Sounds like he's voicing his opinion out of frustration because he hasn't run all that well this year regardless of body panel measurements, aero and what not.

:confused: I thought with the talk of retirement if he didn't find a sponsor it was more of a money thing then anything. Over the last several years many have walked away do to cost, while people keep searching for answers how to reduce cost with the latest tire rule that will save racing! SMH

[Mike]

Aero is a double edged sword. It is the cheapest speed in racing, however, it tends to lead to raised expenses in other areas of the car.

Not to beat a dead horse but people should have listened years ago. It wasn't that hard to see the direction things were headed all you had to do was open your eyes and look around, but It was too easy for some to blame it all on the economy back then I guess.

Let me guess.... you can't change aero now because it will obsolete parts people already have SMH

[dirtdobber45]

Id like to see em go back to the wedge car. I mean if their gonna run a 'throw back' race why not have em run a wedge car too?

[Mike]

Id like to see em go back to the wedge car. I mean if their gonna run a 'throw back' race why not have em run a wedge car too?

They are running the #ModernDayWedge going back to the old school wedge isn't going to solve anything.

[fastford]

good article , thanks for posting it mike, and he is right about the street stocks also , i know a lot of people only see the late models when they go , but if you think about it , or at least at our track, a lot of times these street stocks put on a better show....

[a25rjr]

Its called technology!

Now the racers know to get the front down and the rear up. No matter what rules are passed, they will figure a way to make it happen.

So in essence, the more rules that are passed, the more money, teams will spend!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Its called technology!

Now the racers know to get the front down and the rear up. No matter what rules are passed, they will figure a way to make it happen.

So in essence, the more rules that are passed, the more money, teams will spend!
Bodies are a cheap way to fix the cars. Bob Memmer did it. We got here by allowing companies that make body parts to essentially write the rules. Enforce body rules from 2005 and take the spoiler off. Racing would improve tremendously.

[Josh Bayko]

Not to beat a dead horse but people should have listened years ago. It wasn't that hard to see the direction things were headed all you had to do was open your eyes and look around, but It was too easy for some to blame it all on the economy back then I guess.

Let me guess.... you can't change aero now because it will obsolete parts people already have SMH

Most rule changes do obsolete parts and tend to actually raise cost. You'd obsolete the noses and some body braces with a body change, but most guys are buying new ones before each season anyways. They'd just be buying a different nose instead, so I don't really see an issue with body changes. Something as simple as making them go to solid sail panels would even help some.

Wouldn't change the fact that development of new ways to take advantage of the only thing in racing that is free would commence, and everybody else would do the same, and eventually we'll be right back here. The big money teams have ruled over the sport of auto racing since day one. No amount of rule changes is ever going to stop that.

[dirtdobber45]

They are running the #ModernDayWedge going back to the old school wedge isn't going to solve anything.So taking that lip off the fenders like the old wedge wouldnt change the aero?

[Bubstr]

The Areo thing is easily fixed with a few 2 inch holes around the deck and a straight splitter. My guess is, they don't want to fix it

[Mike]

Most rule changes do obsolete parts and tend to actually raise cost. You'd obsolete the noses and some body braces with a body change, but most guys are buying new ones before each season anyways. They'd just be buying a different nose instead, so I don't really see an issue with body changes. Something as simple as making them go to solid sail panels would even help some.

Wouldn't change the fact that development of new ways to take advantage of the only thing in racing that is free would commence, and everybody else would do the same, and eventually we'll be right back here. The big money teams have ruled over the sport of auto racing since day one. No amount of rule changes is ever going to stop that.

You have to enforce the rules don't allow it to get out of hand. That's why we are where we are now nobody wants to enforce the rules a little tweak here a little tweak there it may not be with in the rules but hey it looks cool. If someone gets away with it the next guy pushes it further and the next guy further until it gets out of hand..

[Mike]

Bodies are a cheap way to fix the cars. Bob Memmer did it. We got here by allowing companies that make body parts to essentially write the rules. Enforce body rules from 2005 and take the spoiler off. Racing would improve tremendously.

I am no Steve Francis, but I have been b!tching about the bodies and the direction they were heading since 2006. All anybody ever wanted to talk about was tire rules and how the latest tire would safe DLM racing SMH

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You have to enforce the rules don't allow it to get out of hand. That's why we are where we are now nobody wants to enforce the rules a little tweak here a little tweak there it may not be with in the rules but hey it looks cool. If someone gets away with it the next guy pushes it further and the next guy further until it gets out of hand..

Bingo!

The cars continue to evolve every February when tech doesn't have the balls to make anyone fix their bodies. I have a 2011 MasterS sitting in the garage. I have to remake the decking and T bars to make the body even competitive right now.

[Mike]

So taking that lip off the fenders like the old wedge wouldnt change the aero?

Yes the elephant ears are part of the package. They aren't alone though. You would still have the nose planted the rear hiked up with a big spoiler out back and a wide body to generate massive down force. It's still a wedge effect

[hucktyson]

I'm sure Mastersbilt racer doesn't mind the fact that a car with the proper stance and body is 2 seconds faster than one without . After all his car would smoke the field at the world 100 since he's " an engineer " he just doesn't want to make the pro racers feel bad. In fact if you make a straight afco 4 valve right front and a 600 lb spring and max ground clearance of 6" the rule he could engineer the car to go 2 seconds faster than they do now ! But his engineering fix would cost 5 mil per car just ask him and he'll tell you. Steve Francis is absolutely right , but all of You experts who maybe have a few wins at moler in a heat race know the sport much better than a Steve Francis

[a25rjr]

Bodies are a cheap way to fix the cars. Bob Memmer did it. We got here by allowing companies that make body parts to essentially write the rules. Enforce body rules from 2005 and take the spoiler off. Racing would improve tremendously.

Speaking of the spoiler.

Didn't Lucas do some testing with spoiler height, several years ago? The rules didn't change, and you never heard anymore about it!

[mcarter815]

Use a stock nose like cup guys or street stocks useThat would ruin the visual appeal.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm sure Mastersbilt racer doesn't mind the fact that a car with the proper stance and body is 2 seconds faster than one without . After all his car would smoke the field at the world 100 since he's " an engineer " he just doesn't want to make the pro racers feel bad. In fact if you make a straight afco 4 valve right front and a 600 lb spring and max ground clearance of 6" the rule he could engineer the car to go 2 seconds faster than they do now ! But his engineering fix would cost 5 mil per car just ask him and he'll tell you. Steve Francis is absolutely right , but all of You experts who maybe have a few wins at moler in a heat race know the sport much better than a Steve Francis

The roids must have effected your ability to comprehend. I said Steve was right. And I complained the first time a nose was approved with a valence. I remember when you said the Rumley device was a decoy. Carry on building decks and trying to beat Gray.

This sport is inbred to the point where product peddlers buy approval and people with influence over the rules are those who financially benefit from setting them as they please.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Speaking of the spoiler.

Didn't Lucas do some testing with spoiler height, several years ago? The rules didn't change, and you never heard anymore about it!

Yes, they tested a shorter spoiler. Maybe 4"?

[billetbirdcage]

This isn't a jab at DP as, just about every other car is this way to some degree. But shows you how everyone has pushed the rules and they don't enforce the rules we had and keep adjusting rules to meet where at the cars are on measurements. Remember when the rear deck hieght was 36" with no tolerance, now we are at 39"

https://i.imgur.com/frV3seQ.jpg


Rules are stated as no more then 1" of tolerance on that blue line I drew and that isn't even including that 4" hump English wheeled into the fender so the right side T-bar can be lowered that much to add rake to the body front to back and left to right

[Illtsate32]

The noses are so huge now its not even proportionate with the car...ugly too...and the tapered decking thats just extra unneeded work so it must provide a big advantage...

[Illtsate32]

Spoiler is huge too..even the fin on the rr is cut down compared to the others...

[dirtcrazy4u]

AERO has been a pain in thr rear in ALL of motorsports.

[Hoosier_Dirt]

Steve Francis nailed this. Bodies on these things are hideous!! They are so fast and equal, it does hurt the quality of racing. That's why the slick tracks take some of this out of the equation and put it in the drivers and set ups. It's not all about hammer down speed.

[Josh Bayko]

You have to enforce the rules don't allow it to get out of hand. That's why we are where we are now nobody wants to enforce the rules a little tweak here a little tweak there it may not be with in the rules but hey it looks cool. If someone gets away with it the next guy pushes it further and the next guy further until it gets out of hand..

Tech is already severely lacking most places, mostly due to a serious lack of knowledgeable people and proper equipment. Relying on tech is what got us here in the first place. There are no real easy answers to these problems. Only thing I can really think of is a dirt version of some sort of the ABC bodies that they use on asphalt late models. Open up the wheel wells some, lose the rear bumper cover or whatever and a flat deck through through the c*ckpit area with a 4 or 6 inch spoiler.

[Mike]

Yes, they tested a shorter spoiler. Maybe 4"?


Was that the year of the bogus Lucas Oil "cost saving test" at Florence Speedway a week before one of the first DTWC's at PRP. You know the one that resulted in the new Lucas Oil tire that was going to save weekly racing lol

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Was that the year of the bogus Lucas Oil "cost saving test" at Florence Speedway a week before one of the first DTWC's at PRP. You know the one that resulted in the new Lucas Oil tire that was going to save weekly racing lol

I think it was! Lol

[Highwayman]

Wonder what took these guys so long to see this. Too bad they didn't have the foresight to see where the sport was headed years ago. It's almost like they had tunnel vision and couldn't see what was happening around them. SMH

https://racingnews.co/2017/09/15/steve-francis-dirt-late-model-aerodynamics/amp/

Been down this road once with, "The Wedge" but like they say, "Those who don't know they're history are doomed to repeat it". And just like the 2008 economic disaster, the smart guys in charge thought they could manage around it, "It was different this time" so they thought. Here we are again, lots of people quitting regularly, costs are over the moon and leadership is absent and clueless.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Tech is already severely lacking most places, mostly due to a serious lack of knowledgeable people and proper equipment. Relying on tech is what got us here in the first place. There are no real easy answers to these problems. Only thing I can really think of is a dirt version of some sort of the ABC bodies that they use on asphalt late models. Open up the wheel wells some, lose the rear bumper cover or whatever and a flat deck through through the c*ckpit area with a 4 or 6 inch spoiler.

I remember taking hours to pass tech at the World 100 in 1993 with a crew of hillbillies not trying to cheat.

[Highwayman]

flat interiors could help also I THINK

Its already too tight in there now, unless your lowering the door height to get flat...

[Mike]

Bingo!

The cars continue to evolve every February when tech doesn't have the balls to make anyone fix their bodies. I have a 2011 MasterS sitting in the garage. I have to remake the decking and T bars to make the body even competitive right now.

Same thing is happening with the modifieds, but you can't tell them anything when Kenny Wallace tells them how great the sport and their class is. They eat it up and wonder why I say Kenny Wallace is bad for the sport lol

[ptown]

Same thing is happening with the modifieds, but you can't tell them anything when Kenny Wallace tells them how great the sport and their class is. The eat it up and wonder why I say Kenny Wallace is bad for the sport lol

Kenny Wallace is a dumb no driving hillbilly who would be changing oil at Wal Mart if he didn't have a brother named Rusty.

[Mike]

I think it was! Lol

I haven't been to a Lucas Oil sanctioned event since that test. I got buddies that don't understand why I choose not to support that sanction. lol In the grand scheme of things I'm only one person and I'm sure they don't miss my support plenty of other fans to replace me Without them missing a beat

[Josh Bayko]

I remember taking hours to pass tech at the World 100 in 1993 with a crew of hillbillies not trying to cheat.

I'm not so much talking about big events, but more about weekly/regional races, and even regular national series races aren't going to bust balls because neither one of them want to lose any racers. It's a vicious cycle that nobody really knows how to stop.

[Illtsate32]

I'm not so much talking about big events, but more about weekly/regional races, and even regular national series races aren't going to bust balls because neither one of them want to lose any racers. It's a vicious cycle that nobody really knows how to stop.And most local tracks have their favorites or people that race who have relatives that are officials at a track or contribute to a fairground or fairboard where the track is....

[Mike]

Bodies are a cheap way to fix the cars. Bob Memmer did it. We got here by allowing companies that make body parts to essentially write the rules. Enforce body rules from 2005 and take the spoiler off. Racing would improve tremendously.

Exactly......Bingo!

[Mike]

Tech is already severely lacking most places, mostly due to a serious lack of knowledgeable people and proper equipment. Relying on tech is what got us here in the first place. There are no real easy answers to these problems. Only thing I can really think of is a dirt version of some sort of the ABC bodies that they use on asphalt late models. Open up the wheel wells some, lose the rear bumper cover or whatever and a flat deck through through the c*ckpit area with a 4 or 6 inch spoiler.

Some of this stuff is/was so obvious it could be seen from the stands. It's not all rocket science and lack of knowledge. A lot of it has to do with who it is when things are allowed to pass tech when it shouldn't be

[Mike]

Been down this road once with, "The Wedge" but like they say, "Those who don't know they're history are doomed to repeat it". And just like the 2008 economic disaster, the smart guys in charge thought they could manage around it, "It was different this time" so they thought. Here we are again, lots of people quitting regularly, costs are over the moon and leadership is absent and clueless.

Instead of addressing/admitting the problem in 2008 many stuck their head in the sand and blamed it all the on the economy. They said everything would be great again when the economy improved

[dirtcrazy4u]

Bla, bla, bla. If you don't get lucas and WoO to agree on a standard set of aero rules your just wasting your time. I do agree, aero is not a good thing. Every time I hear a driver say I was in bad air or aero this or that it makes my skin crawl. Y a go back to the 2005 bodies , do you realize what that would cost teams ? Shock packages, springs, tires, it's all going to change so were are you then ? You take that downforce away and your going to throw all those set up sheets out the window. The bodies are one of the cheapest items on a current slm. They need to make sure the engineers that are making these cars so expensive stops. As for steve francis, Yea he is right, but if he had a sponsor and was competitive I don't think he would be making the same comments.

[Mike]

Bla, bla, bla. If you don't get lucas and WoO to agree on a standard set of aero rules your just wasting your time. I do agree, aero is not a good thing. Every time I hear a driver say I was in bad air or aero this or that it makes my skin crawl. Y a go back to the 2005 bodies , do you realize what that would cost teams ? Shock packages, springs, tires, it's all going to change so were are you then ? You take that downforce away and your going to throw all those set up sheets out the window. The bodies are one of the cheapest items on a current slm. They need to make sure the engineers that are making these cars so expensive stops. As for steve francis, Yea he is right, but if he had a sponsor and was competitive I don't think he would be making the same comments.

Do you realize there use to be a thing called wedge cars and what happened to them:confused: We have been here before

There are two choices head in the sand and ignore the problem or address it head on.

We know what the choice was last time the only question now is which direction we go now. If the last several years are any indication it will continue to be fading sport with declining participation on all sides. Tracks closing, driver hanging up the helmet and fans staying home.

[Hovlane]

The cost of racing has alway caused drivers to call it quits for many years. A lot of drivers quit for personal reasons family, work ect.... All of which is true today. The big difference today is the generation of teenagers and 20 somethings have very little interest in racing. Guys can't drive forever they get old and the even if the younger generation had all the money in the world they for the most part are not interested on spending it on racing driving or spectating. Lets face it there is just not a interest in it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Bla, bla, bla. If you don't get lucas and WoO to agree on a standard set of aero rules your just wasting your time. I do agree, aero is not a good thing. Every time I hear a driver say I was in bad air or aero this or that it makes my skin crawl. Y a go back to the 2005 bodies , do you realize what that would cost teams ? Shock packages, springs, tires, it's all going to change so were are you then ? You take that downforce away and your going to throw all those set up sheets out the window. The bodies are one of the cheapest items on a current slm. They need to make sure the engineers that are making these cars so expensive stops. As for steve francis, Yea he is right, but if he had a sponsor and was competitive I don't think he would be making the same comments.

Fixing the bodies doesn't stop the aero from working. It simply lessens the effects.

[Highwayman]

Do you realize there use to be a thing called wedge cars and what happened to them:confused: We have been here before

There are two choices head in the sand and ignore the problem or address it head on.

We know what the choice was last time the only question now is which direction we go now. If the last several years are any indication it will continue to be fading sport with declining participation on all sides. Tracks closing, driver hanging up the helmet and fans staying home.
Snowflakes don't get it. No matter what you do somebody/everybody will spend some money due to change, but the elites are gonna spend that money anyway. Going backwards is infinitely cheaper than continuing the path we're on. I fully expect nothing to happen till the whole thing collapses because the younger generation don't get it. Things could be done very cheaply to diminish traction, which in turn would lower costs, but the flakes are too focused on equality, sharing and the collective to understand.

The elimination of bumps would do a lot as well as no stacked springs or travel limiters. 1 shock/spring per wheel only. Maximum nose height of 6 inches all the way across. All these are simple and cheap subtraction to costs.

[STRONGERTHANDIRT]

The younger generation can get on a computer and simulate just about anything they want now. Why go to races when you can sit at home and "drive". They have no interest in anything beyond that smart phone in their hands. Technology is great...except when it's not.

[Mike]

Snowflakes don't get it. No matter what you do somebody/everybody will spend some money due to change, but the elites are gonna spend that money anyway. Going backwards is infinitely cheaper than continuing the path we're on. I fully expect nothing to happen till the whole thing collapses because the younger generation don't get it. Things could be done very cheaply to diminish traction, which in turn would lower costs, but the flakes are too focused on equality, sharing and the collective to understand.

The elimination of bumps would do a lot as well as no stacked springs or travel limiters. 1 shock/spring per wheel only. Maximum nose height of 6 inches all the way across. All these are simple and cheap subtraction to costs.

No fear the UDLMC will safe the day! lol

They already tackled the suspensions. lol Remember most if not all the sanctions in the UDLMC are sponsored by shock companies;)

Up next is aerodynamics and a couple small changes to address it according to Stan. SMH



‪ http://bluetoad.com/display_article.php?id=2790901&view=409995‬

[Illtsate32]

Ya once you take a little extra time to look at one of these cars you can see how twisted up the body is...the nose is all twisted up...you could basically change the spark plugs on the right side there such a gaping space between the fender and the tire...well not even a fender really whatever that big flare coming off the nose...

[Illtsate32]

Ump used to have a max rake on the deck from firewall to spoiler...hell they got 6-8 inches of rake from the rear tire to the spoiler...#wedgecar

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

No fear the UDLMC will safe the day! lol

They already tackled the suspensions. lol Remember most if not all the sanctions in the UDLMC are sponsored by shock companies;)

Up next is aerodynamics and a couple small changes to address it according to Stan. SMH



‪ http://bluetoad.com/display_article.php?id=2790901&view=409995‬

Somebody needs to tell Schwallie,
A) those guys replace wheels every year.
B) steel wheels are cheaper than aluminum wheels
C) Lucas cars have been on the track with steel wheels this season

[Mike]

Somebody needs to tell Schwallie,
A) those guys replace wheels every year.
B) steel wheels are cheaper than aluminum wheels
C) Lucas cars have been on the track with steel wheels this season

Somebody with money/influence needs to tell Schwallie

A) if your a steel wheel manufacturer I'm sure a little sponsorship could help you sell some wheels to his drivers ;)

B) if your looking at the driver and not the wheel your never going to notice what it's made of.

C) He doesn't care about steel wheels he just doesn't want them to win on steel wheels because then everyone would want them lol

[Krooser]

I know guys who spend $5k on pavement bodies... We need a change but that's the wrong way to go.

[Krooser]

My suggestion....'05 body rules 2200 lbs.... '17 body rules 2500 lbs. It's a start....

[Illtsate32]

Steel wheels wow...can somebody tell me why these guys want unsprung weight on the rearend now days?..especially rotating unsprung weight?

[Josh Bayko]

No fear the UDLMC will safe the day! lol

They already tackled the suspensions. lol Remember most if not all the sanctions in the UDLMC are sponsored by shock companies;)

Up next is aerodynamics and a couple small changes to address it according to Stan. SMH



‪ http://bluetoad.com/display_article.php?id=2790901&view=409995‬

Small changes are better than no changes. Simple changes within the current structure could be making them mount the nose straight, making the ears be even instead of wildly lopsided, flattening the deck, and closing in the sails. None of that really changes the body all that much but could certainly certainly help some.

[Mike]

Small changes are better than no changes. Simple changes within the current structure could be making them mount the nose straight, making the ears be even instead of wildly lopsided, flattening the deck, and closing in the sails. None of that really changes the body all that much but could certainly certainly help some.

Yes small changes can be better than no changes. Guess we will have to wait and see what actually gets changed if anything. I wouldn't be surprised if it took 3 years to implement the things you listed I mean you did list three things.

We would be in a better place now if more people would have took notice of what was going on around them 10 years ago

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Steel wheels wow...can somebody tell me why these guys want unsprung weight on the rearend now days?..especially rotating unsprung weight?

Traction control limits your ability to spin the tires. So does rotational inertia.

[CIRF]

It's been since the 1990's since I've been involved in dirt late model racing, both hands on and economically. You guys who are economically involved and/or work in the sport are way out of my league in regards to knowledge and tech savvy. However, aesthetically as seen from the grandstands, the dirt late models of the last 10 years or so have evolved way off the charts.

The amount of rear steer and the way the right front wheel hangs a foot beyond the right rear and the valence is 8 inches shorter on the right front as compared to the left front has caused me and some in our group to change how we look at dirt late models these days. In addition, half the left rear disappears forward of the wheel opening upon acceleration. I'm sure all this makes them faster and legislating this stuff out of the cars may be impossible, as well. But from a dirt late model loving bleacher jockey's point of view this stuff has made the cars less appealing, at least to us. I'm guessing the costs have greatly escalated as a result, too.

[Illtsate32]

I want the guy who has the best car for that night..the guy that set his car up with the best mechanical grip..I dont want to hear about clean air or dirty air in dlm racing...

[onlyfacts]

I want the guy who has the best car for that night..the guy that set his car up with the best mechanical grip..I dont want to hear about clean air or dirty air in dlm racing...That guy did win last night. Any type of vehicle at speed creates aero disturbances. Aero issues have always been a part of racing we just didn't understand it... these cars today are less disturbed in traffic than the cars from a few years ago. Just more so called experts that think they have the answers...the racing last night was awesome at Knoxville but it's because Knoxville is the best track period for racing. It's why I go every year. I would miss others but not Knoxville.

[onlyfacts]

I would give Eldora a 7 for racing last weekend and Knoxville a 10+

[tiger]

flat interiors could help also I THINK

I'm a little late replying, but this is the same thing I've thought all year. these cars now have the decks dished out 4-6 inches. They are getting a lot of extra spoiler because of it.

Also enforce the deck height rules post race. I saw them going through doing it prerace at knoxville and they had to push down on about 1/3 of the cars to get them to pass before the race. Post Race when Marlar was not inside his car it looked like it would have been 4 or 5 inches high. The only thing I can think of to help the LR's getting so high in the air would be to make them Run a Shorter Shock on that corner.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That guy did win last night. Any type of vehicle at speed creates aero disturbances. Aero issues have always been a part of racing we just didn't understand it... these cars today are less disturbed in traffic than the cars from a few years ago. Just more so called experts that think they have the answers...the racing last night was awesome at Knoxville but it's because Knoxville is the best track period for racing. It's why I go every year. I would miss others but not Knoxville.

5 years ago, guys didn't get aero push.

[onlyfacts]

5 years ago, guys didn't get aero push.Sorry to disagree but they did... It just wasn't something that was talked about like it is now. With DOD and PPVs you can go back and see what happened 5 years ago we didn't have much video to critic what caused the push.

[Highwayman]

No fear the UDLMC will safe the day! lol

They already tackled the suspensions. lol Remember most if not all the sanctions in the UDLMC are sponsored by shock companies;)

Up next is aerodynamics and a couple small changes to address it according to Stan. SMH



‪ http://bluetoad.com/display_article.php?id=2790901&view=409995‬

Your right they pretend to do things and then do the opposite of helpful, like politicians.

[rickybrown1952]

I would like to see the Late models go back to running about the same car as back in 94/95 now that used to be some sho nuf good racin back then

[Highwayman]

I would like to see the Late models go back to running about the same car as back in 94/95 now that used to be some sho nuf good racin back then

Agree 100%. We had great racing and suspension diversity.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Sorry to disagree but they did... It just wasn't something that was talked about like it is now. With DOD and PPVs you can go back and see what happened 5 years ago we didn't have much video to critic what caused the push.

It just isn't that mysterious of a phenomenon...

[Mike]

Sorry to disagree but they did... It just wasn't something that was talked about like it is now. With DOD and PPVs you can go back and see what happened 5 years ago we didn't have much video to critic what caused the push.

People weren't talking aero push 5 years ago. People had tunnel vision. They were more worried about downforce and sticking the car to the track. Wind tunnel test gave data for clean air over a single car. Nobody was worried about anything else.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0908-dirt-late-model-in-wind-tunnel/

[powerslide]

Tire dope talk was the craze before this aero push business. "my tire sealed up" was code for i put too much venom juice in it. Now you hardly ever hear someone mention a tire sealing up. Aero push is the flavor of the week. Yes the bodies are out of hand. No i don't think the sanction bodies are going to do anything. The speed difference between an IMCA car and an IMCA car with a 6in spoiler is a lot, so much so you that the crate isn't enough anymore.

Take the spoilers off is a cheap start since its obvious they don't want to enforce anything.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Heck let's just go back to the 84 to 86 camaro bodies, tires outside the fenders, flat floor interiors. Close the backend of them up so it acts like a parachute.

[a25rjr]

Some on here need to have their memories refreshed!

I've been on dlm teams since 1988, and have been to tracks from Florida to Tennessee. The racing today is 10x better than ever! More times than not, the racing is 2 wide! The lr spring behind changed racing for the better. Now, the cars can be driven around the track instead of breaking the rears loose to make them turn.

Yall can have the old school days of racing......Ill take todays version!

[onlyfacts]

Some on here need to have their memories refreshed!I've been on dlm teams since 1988, and have been to tracks from Florida to Tennessee. The racing today is 10x better than ever! More times than not, the racing is 2 wide! The lr spring behind changed racing for the better. Now, the cars can be driven around the track instead of breaking the rears loose to make them turn.Yall can have the old school days of racing......Ill take todays version!I Agree with you 100%. People forget how bad the racing really was. Today's dirt late model has its own identity. If you want to watch street stocks most local tracks still have that class. The current dirt late model has become recognized as a top level class of racing in America and some other countries.

[Mike]

Some on here need to have their memories refreshed!

I've been on dlm teams since 1988, and have been to tracks from Florida to Tennessee. The racing today is 10x better than ever! More times than not, the racing is 2 wide! The lr spring behind changed racing for the better. Now, the cars can be driven around the track instead of breaking the rears loose to make them turn.

Yall can have the old school days of racing......Ill take todays version!

Which version Super, Crate, Limited ect.

Why is there a need for so many classes of the same type of cars....

[Highwayman]

Some on here need to have their memories refreshed!

I've been on dlm teams since 1988, and have been to tracks from Florida to Tennessee. The racing today is 10x better than ever! More times than not, the racing is 2 wide! The lr spring behind changed racing for the better. Now, the cars can be driven around the track instead of breaking the rears loose to make them turn.

Yall can have the old school days of racing......Ill take todays version!


I Agree with you 100%. People forget how bad the racing really was. Today's dirt late model has its own identity. If you want to watch street stocks most local tracks still have that class. The current dirt late model has become recognized as a top level class of racing in America and some other countries.

You 2 need to wake-up and smell the coffee. No body has said they aren't FAST & EXCITING, they are, but... The cost of your excitement is leading to the death of the patient, no different from using cocaine or meth. Sure you can have the night of your life with illicit substances, but if the price is your death in the morning, what good is it? We want longevity, vitality and health for the sport, not an un-natural jolt that leaves it dead for all time... Do you not see the symptoms? Does it not trouble you the string of retirements from top to bottom all sighting the costs in both time & money as to why? I've been active in DLM since 86' and this course is unsustainable and unhealthy, period. We had popularity greater than F1 in the 70's, before the wedge came along and nearly killed it. Now here we are back at the same juncture.

[fastford]

Some on here need to have their memories refreshed!

I've been on dlm teams since 1988, and have been to tracks from Florida to Tennessee. The racing today is 10x better than ever! More times than not, the racing is 2 wide! The lr spring behind changed racing for the better. Now, the cars can be driven around the track instead of breaking the rears loose to make them turn.

Yall can have the old school days of racing......Ill take todays version!

Im with you 25, ive been around dirt racing since the 70s and i guess i still love speed , and technology creates speed , there is no answer to the rise in cost , its the nature of the beast . on my budget , i have doubts my self some times, but me and my 3 kids just get out there in the shop and work harder because if you really love it , you will keep digging and there just getting started in racing and in life.

[onlyfacts]

You 2 need to wake-up and smell the coffee. No body has said they aren't FAST & EXCITING, they are, but... The cost of your excitement is leading to the death of the patient, no different from using cocaine or meth. Sure you can have the night of your life with illicit substances, but if the price is your death in the morning, what good is it? We want longevity, vitality and health for the sport, not an un-natural jolt that leaves it dead for all time... Do you not see the symptoms? Does it not trouble you the string of retirements from top to bottom all sighting the costs in both time & money as to why? I've been active in DLM since 86' and this course is unsustainable and unhealthy, period. We had popularity greater than F1 in the 70's, before the wedge came along and nearly killed it. Now here we are back at the same juncture.What you don't understand is that air is cheap.... bodies will cost the same..what won't cost the same is the technology and engineering that comes with tighter rules. It's what has caused the problem now. About 2-3 years ago Lucas and WOO starting making suspension rules so engineers where hired to counter act the rules. That caused the prices to rise. Then safety rules came last year and created another burden for low budget teams. If they continue to make rules the people with the most cash will be the last ones standing. Your way of fixing things is why we are at the point we are. WOO and Lucas are killing this sport one rule at a time. Everyone wants tire rules I talked to a couple teams that say they buy more tires now with tire rules than they did when it was open tire rule. And have you ever seen so many flat tires like there was Sat night at Knoxville.. I asked a crew chief after the race why all the RFs blew out.... he said because of the tire rule. At some point we need to understand they are making the problem worse with rules.

[Krooser]

New UMP body rules for 2018....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

What you don't understand is that air is cheap.... bodies will cost the same..what won't cost the same is the technology and engineering that comes with tighter rules. It's what has caused the problem now. About 2-3 years ago Lucas and WOO starting making suspension rules so engineers where hired to counter act the rules. That caused the prices to rise. Then safety rules came last year and created another burden for low budget teams. If they continue to make rules the people with the most cash will be the last ones standing. Your way of fixing things is why we are at the point we are. WOO and Lucas are killing this sport one rule at a time. Everyone wants tire rules I talked to a couple teams that say they buy more tires now with tire rules than they did when it was open tire rule. And have you ever seen so many flat tires like there was Sat night at Knoxville.. I asked a crew chief after the race why all the RFs blew out.... he said because of the tire rule. At some point we need to understand they are making the problem worse with rules.

Your points here are spot on. But I think body rules can certainly slow the cars down. And they can be implemented with a tape measure and maybe a string.

[golddirt]

Air is cheap?! Have you aired up a tire at a gas station recently?

[Hovlane]

What you don't understand is that air is cheap.... bodies will cost the same..what won't cost the same is the technology and engineering that comes with tighter rules. It's what has caused the problem now. About 2-3 years ago Lucas and WOO starting making suspension rules so engineers where hired to counter act the rules. That caused the prices to rise. Then safety rules came last year and created another burden for low budget teams. If they continue to make rules the people with the most cash will be the last ones standing. Your way of fixing things is why we are at the point we are. WOO and Lucas are killing this sport one rule at a time. Everyone wants tire rules I talked to a couple teams that say they buy more tires now with tire rules than they did when it was open tire rule. And have you ever seen so many flat tires like there was Sat night at Knoxville.. I asked a crew chief after the race why all the RFs blew out.... he said because of the tire rule. At some point we need to understand they are making the problem worse with rules.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You are one of the few on here that actually gets it. Could not have said it better.

[Krooser]

Maybe add 50lbs to the car even with the #1 spark plug... or keep the weight and just require it have 50 at the #1... that might help the old bodies to be competitive

[Bubstr]

I really don't think anything can be done about the cost escalation. There is always more than one way to skin a cat and these teams ill find it or buy it.

As far as tires at Kville, What I saw is most failures where from gambling on a rain shortened race. They leaned on them too hard and it didn't rain.

[Mike]

What you don't understand is that air is cheap.... bodies will cost the same..what won't cost the same is the technology and engineering that comes with tighter rules. It's what has caused the problem now. About 2-3 years ago Lucas and WOO starting making suspension rules so engineers where hired to counter act the rules. That caused the prices to rise. Then safety rules came last year and created another burden for low budget teams. If they continue to make rules the people with the most cash will be the last ones standing. Your way of fixing things is why we are at the point we are. WOO and Lucas are killing this sport one rule at a time. Everyone wants tire rules I talked to a couple teams that say they buy more tires now with tire rules than they did when it was open tire rule. And have you ever seen so many flat tires like there was Sat night at Knoxville.. I asked a crew chief after the race why all the RFs blew out.... he said because of the tire rule. At some point we need to understand they are making the problem worse with rules.


The two biggest myths in racing. Air is cheap and monopolized tires will save money.

I have said for years the current tire rules will never save anybody money. When you take away the compition a tire company can charge you what ever they want and can provide you with an inferior product. The more tires they sale the more money they make. What can you do about it?



As for the body yes it may cost the same but if that's the way your looking at it your looking at it wrong. Speed cost money. As MasterSbilt_Racer some changes to the body would slow them down some.

[Bubstr]

The two biggest myths in racing. Air is cheap and monopolized tires will save money.

I have said for years the current tire rules will never save anybody money. When you take away the compition a tire company can charge you what ever they want and can provide you with an inferior product. The more tires they sale the more money they make. What can you do about it?



As for the body yes it may cost the same but if that's the way your looking at it your looking at it wrong. Speed cost money. As MasterSbilt_Racer some changes to the body would slow them down some.

Speed does cost money and the more restrictive the rules are, the more it cost to get back to where they were. You know they are going to do it. Good point on tires.

[Hovlane]

Tire rule is bad. Tire rule when they tell you what compound you are going to use and on what corner really bad because it's normally too soft and they get trashed. It's worse when the tell you NO GROOVING OR SIPING. Not doing that causes the tire to blister in a short heat race. We are buying more tires now than we ever have. These soft compounds that they are choosing just cant handle it with out the grooving to release heat build up. We used to have piles of pretty good used tires at the shop that local racers would come purchase at really cheap prices but not anymore when we take them off the car the are junk. The local racers just have to buy new anymore for the most part since the good used tire are few far between. Why not at least mandate a hard compound????? Because Hoosier wouldn't sell as many tires. Oh one more the on these dry slick track that are most common these days a hard compound will blister also without Grooving and siping. People that argue for the above mentioned type of tire rule have never pulled our their personal check book to pay for a truck load of Hoosiers.

How can we sell more tire: Make track and sanctioning bodies mandate everybody runs our tire. Ok now how can we sell more. Have tracks and sanctioning bodies ban grooving and siping. That way the tire can only be used once. We will tell them it's a big time saver

[Mike]

Speed does cost money and the more restrictive the rules are, the more it cost to get back to where they were. You know they are going to do it. Good point on tires.

They will do anything you let them do. You have to enforce the rules that are set. That's one of the biggest reasons why we are where we are now. Some rules weren't/aren't enforced other rules were changed because the "right" person/people complained.

Just reading this thread you will see some people think rules are bad they would rather have no rules. Apparently they want it to be a run what you brung class.