Steve Francis

[Mike]

Steve says the body has grown too much.

I say ofcoarse...Bigger Body is more area to create downforce. It's something I have been talking / complaining about for years. Good to see more people are finally opening their eyes.

https://racingnews.co/2017/09/26/steve-francis-dirt-late-model-rules-bodies/

[rickybrown1952]

Very good Article

[fastford]

stiil hard to argue cheap traction , as opposed to shocks and fancy gadgets....

[Forward Bite]

Not really cheap traction because you need fancy gadgets to then make car work with body mods.

[Mike]

Not really cheap traction because you need fancy gadgets to then make car work with body mods.

It always amazes me when someone says a body doesn't cost that much your not going to save any money with new body rules. Most people don't understand the body isn't only about air.

[billetbirdcage]

stiil hard to argue cheap traction , as opposed to shocks and fancy gadgets....

The argument for me is all the aero is helping traction thus increasing the HP that can be used thus increasing engine costs at the same time. The engine and more importantly the engine freshen costs are IMO what has driven most out of the sport and not allowed more people to get into it.

[00Hdmn]

The argument for me is all the aero is helping traction thus increasing the HP that can be used thus increasing engine costs at the same time. The engine and more importantly the engine freshen costs are IMO what has driven most out of the sport and not allowed more people to get into it.

Yep I agree and the price to get a new car has doubled also. Those two things are the killer. No stopping it IMO.

[fastford]

The argument for me is all the aero is helping traction thus increasing the HP that can be used thus increasing engine costs at the same time. The engine and more importantly the engine freshen costs are IMO what has driven most out of the sport and not allowed more people to get into it.

i agree , but when talking about aero individually , its pretty cheap to copy what has been done in a wind tunnel with metal that hasn't really went up much , but yes , it does create the need for more hp so in a sense it does contribute to cost increase overall . Problem is if you limit HP , then money will still be spent elsewhere to gain an advantage , just look at the crate classes over all.

[hucktyson]

Always the same stupid argument ... if you limit the HP people can put down they will use that saved money on something else lol. Ok but as of now they are buying expensive motors and the best of the best everything else too !! Plenty of crate races are won with older cars without the expensive bolt ons running against XR1 cars.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

i agree , but when talking about aero individually , its pretty cheap to copy what has been done in a wind tunnel with metal that hasn't really went up much , but yes , it does create the need for more hp so in a sense it does contribute to cost increase overall . Problem is if you limit HP , then money will still be spent elsewhere to gain an advantage , just look at the crate classes over all.

The best rules for cost containment don't address the issue directly. They promote conditions to lessen the advantage gained from the expensive pieces.

[fastford]

just look around huck , even at the local level , the most competitive crate cars are pulling up in stackers, which i do agree dont necessarily make the car faster but does have its advantages, and new top of the line chassis and shocks and every thing else , its not a stupid argument, its the truth...

[xray]

The more aero dependent, the faster the leader.

[fastford]

The best rules for cost containment don't address the issue directly. They promote conditions to lessen the advantage gained from the expensive pieces.

but doesnt these new conditions inspire folks to create new pieces that are within the new rule that will do basically the same thing , and then charge an outrageous price for it? this has happened before. I dont have an unlimited budget , so im for any way out there to help with cost and keep our sport alive , and having a constructive argument like this helps , but we have to be real , in this sport , its easy to give and hard to take away....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

but doesnt these new conditions inspire folks to create new pieces that are within the new rule that will do basically the same thing , and then charge an outrageous price for it? this has happened before. I dont have an unlimited budget , so im for any way out there to help with cost and keep our sport alive , and having a constructive argument like this helps , but we have to be real , in this sport , its easy to give and hard to take away....

That's what happens with a direct rule. Like outlawing specific pieces.

Making the body small indirectly impacts engine costs.

[Highwayman]

Steve says the body has grown too much.

I say ofcoarse...Bigger Body is more area to create downforce. It's something I have been talking / complaining about for years. Good to see more people are finally opening their eyes.

https://racingnews.co/2017/09/26/steve-francis-dirt-late-model-rules-bodies/

I think the body size has been the same for like 25 years, but the nose has been allowed to morph into a cow catcher and even the roof went from flat a few years ago to now it has rake. Same old story, lack of enforcement and appeasement of manufacturers, this how crates came about, yuck.

[Phatdaddy]

Wonder why the body rules have changed as Francis said in the article?? What are the determining factors for allowing these body design changes from year to year?? Does Lucas/Wo0 just take recommendation from racers, chassis builders, etc.. Is there $$$ incentive to change the rulebook ? Just a few questions.

[Highwayman]

The argument for me is all the aero is helping traction thus increasing the HP that can be used thus increasing engine costs at the same time. The engine and more importantly the engine freshen costs are IMO what has driven most out of the sport and not allowed more people to get into it.

BINGO! If we ever meet I owe you a beer or your favorite beverage.


The best rules for cost containment don't address the issue directly. They promote conditions to lessen the advantage gained from the expensive pieces.

HALLELUJAH! And 1 for you as well.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Wonder why the body rules have changed as Francis said in the article?? What are the determining factors for allowing these body design changes from year to year?? Does Lucas/Wo0 just take recommendation from racers, chassis builders, etc.. Is there $$$ incentive to change the rulebook ? Just a few questions.
Usually to accommodate cars that are already outside the rulebook or parts manufacturers who built pieces that don't conform in order to have the piece everyone wants.

[Barbecueboy]

It always amazes me when someone says a body doesn't cost that much your not going to save any money with new body rules. Most people don't understand the body isn't only about air.

Thumbs up for your signature........more of us out there than I thought.

[Barbecueboy]

Always the same stupid argument ... if you limit the HP people can put down they will use that saved money on something else lol. Ok but as of now they are buying expensive motors and the best of the best everything else too !! Plenty of crate races are won with older cars without the expensive bolt ons running against XR1 cars.

Plenty of cars on jack stands because they know they can't compete too.....

[Barbecueboy]

just look around huck , even at the local level , the most competitive crate cars are pulling up in stackers, which i do agree dont necessarily make the car faster but does have its advantages, and new top of the line chassis and shocks and every thing else , its not a stupid argument, its the truth...

His most expensive bolt on and most used piece is his car cover........and that is also the truth.

[Phatdaddy]

Usually to accommodate cars that are already outside the rulebook or parts manufacturers who built pieces that don't conform in order to have the piece everyone wants.

Thank you for the insight. That makes sense (kind of). So does that mean that the sanctioning bodies conform the rules to what the racers want ?? it's interesting that a racer (Francis) shows dis-favor with body rules if it's the racers who initiate these rule changes. It doesn't seem logical that Rocket/BWRC/Longhorn etc.. would just one day start mass producing late models that are clearly out of specifications in hopes that they will be deemed legal in next years rule book. The demand has to coming from somewhere. I would love to know what the reasoning is. Another question : Who votes on these body specification changes ?? Just some thoughts.

[Phatdaddy]

I think I found most of my answers. Looking at the sponsors for the WoO and LOLMS, all the major chassis builders are the sponsors ($$$$) of these series. Atleast it is clear from which direction these changes come from. Still don't know why though.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Thank you for the insight. That makes sense (kind of). So does that mean that the sanctioning bodies conform the rules to what the racers want ?? it's interesting that a racer (Francis) shows dis-favor with body rules if it's the racers who initiate these rule changes. It doesn't seem logical that Rocket/BWRC/Longhorn etc.. would just one day start mass producing late models that are clearly out of specifications in hopes that they will be deemed legal in next years rule book. The demand has to coming from somewhere. I would love to know what the reasoning is. Another question : Who votes on these body specification changes ?? Just some thoughts.

It is usually a gradual thing. Car builders or individual racers push their body outside the rules. The series is too scared to run anyone off, so they let it go. Then, the next year, tweak the rules to make it legal. Then the same teams just push the envelope again.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I think I found most of my answers. Looking at the sponsors for the WoO and LOLMS, all the major chassis builders are the sponsors ($$$$) of these series. Atleast it is clear from which direction these changes come from. Still don't know why though.

Now you understand where the Rumley Rules came from.

[NormP]

Francis talks more about the costs, body changes, engine price increase, etc. in today's dirt on dirt article. If you have a subscription you should read the article. Pretty interesting.

[onlyfacts]

The best rules for cost containment don't address the issue directly. They promote conditions to lessen the advantage gained from the expensive pieces.100% agree

[a25rjr]

His most expensive bolt on and most used piece is his car cover........and that is also the truth.

I bet if ole BG was behind the wheel, that 69 car would be at least a second faster....maybe more! :)

[Senroc-Systems]

The argument for me is all the aero is helping traction thus increasing the HP that can be used thus increasing engine costs at the same time. The engine and more importantly the engine freshen costs are IMO what has driven most out of the sport and not allowed more people to get into it.

BBC, let me start by saying that I really enjoy your posts. Always informative and positive.

The costs of the engine program from start to finish is expensive. We all know that. The cost of freshening the engine differs depending upon what needs replaced. I know you know these things well. The whole wide bore engine deal is retarded. The new chassis' deal that costs $40,000+ is retarded. People with money are going to spend it. That's the big problem. Those people are not concerned about the little guy. In fact, it's the opposite. They relish in the fact that they can beat you with money. Both " Premier" late model series advertise having the latest and greatest, cutting edge DLM's. Fans love the sights, sounds and smells and flat out speed of today's hi tech product. The big events are having record attendance, while the local LM' division continues​ to suffer, to the point of Extinction all over the country. It's really is sad because there's almost no turning back. Unless several influencial people get together and make a " make or break" case as to the overall health of LM racing it's not going to change.

I'm not sure it can be fixed

More later, I've got to go pour concrete so I can afford to go to the DTWC as a spectator.

[Barbecueboy]

BBC, let me start by saying that I really enjoy your posts. Always informative and positive.

The costs of the engine program from start to finish is expensive. We all know that. The cost of freshening the engine differs depending upon what needs replaced. I know you know these things well. The whole wide bore engine deal is retarded. The new chassis' deal that costs $40,000+ is retarded. People with money are going to spend it. That's the big problem. Those people are not concerned about the little guy. In fact, it's the opposite. They relish in the fact that they can beat you with money. Both " Premier" late model series advertise having the latest and greatest, cutting edge DLM's. Fans love the sights, sounds and smells and flat out speed of today's hi tech product. The big events are having record attendance, while the local LM' division continues​ to suffer, to the point of Extinction all over the country. It's really is sad because there's almost no turning back. Unless several influencial people get together and make a " make or break" case as to the overall health of LM racing it's not going to change.

I'm not sure it can be fixed

More later, I've got to go pour concrete so I can afford to go to the DTWC as a spectator.
Very, very good post......sums it up nicely.

[Mike]

I think the body size has been the same for like 25 years, but the nose has been allowed to morph into a cow catcher and even the roof went from flat a few years ago to now it has rake. Same old story, lack of enforcement and appeasement of manufacturers, this how crates came about, yuck.

Did you read the article? Steve talks about having to take braces of just to get the car in the trailer now. Also talks about the stackers being longer now. He says you can only get one car up top where they use to put two. He also says the stackers have become taller to accommodate the new cars.

[Kromulous]

Body changes would be the simplest way to get a handle on the costs. Easiest to actually check.

The question is, are they interested in keeping the costs down?

My concern is that these cars are not designed strong enough, or well enough to support this speeds at large tracks. If the conditions are fast. I believe you will see, or start seeing these cars start to come apart in wrecks if the are not addressed.

Reducing the speed will help with the low budget guys, in engine costs, but like i said i am not convinced the big boys are interested in weekly racing. If that happens, i believe the end of SLM racing will be sealed. Like it or not, you need the weekly racing, and you need the low budget guys, if they lose sight of that its a done deal all around.

Flat decks
equal deck height (both sides within say 2")
reduced spoiler
Raise the front valance height
and maybe a hike check on the LR

Should be all thats needed to really steer the costs back in a positive direction.

[Cast-Iron-Junkie]

Body changes would be the simplest way to get a handle on the costs. Easiest to actually check.

The question is, are they interested in keeping the costs down?

My concern is that these cars are not designed strong enough, or well enough to support this speeds at large tracks. If the conditions are fast. I believe you will see, or start seeing these cars start to come apart in wrecks if the are not addressed.

Reducing the speed will help with the low budget guys, in engine costs, but like i said i am not convinced the big boys are interested in weekly racing. If that happens, i believe the end of SLM racing will be sealed. Like it or not, you need the weekly racing, and you need the low budget guys, if they lose sight of that its a done deal all around.

Flat decks
equal deck height (both sides within say 2")
reduced spoiler
Raise the front valance height
and maybe a hike check on the LR

Should be all thats needed to really steer the costs back in a positive direction.

Are they interested in keeping the cost down? Obviously not! The guy who said that a big majority of the people with the most influence are going to have to step up is right. I believe we the fans can facilitate this change by banding together. Force a meeting with the two heads of State. ( LOLMDS and WoOLMS separately) If someone can make them see it is a more profitable business plan to reduce costs dramatically, then and only then will the problem start to fix itself.

If anyone who reads this has passion enough to invest the time to prepare a petition, I'll be the first one to sign. Just thinking out loud here.

Something has to be done. It's dying a slow death. We've all seen it happen right in front of our eyes. JMO.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Are they interested in keeping the cost down? Obviously not! The guy who said that a big majority of the people with the most influence are going to have to step up is right. I believe we the fans can facilitate this change by banding together. Force a meeting with the two heads of State. ( LOLMDS and WoOLMS separately) If someone can make them see it is a more profitable business plan to reduce costs dramatically, then and only then will the problem start to fix itself.

If anyone who reads this has passion enough to invest the time to prepare a petition, I'll be the first one to sign. Just thinking out loud here.

Something has to be done. It's dying a slow death. We've all seen it happen right in front of our eyes. JMO.

Good luck with that. The Lucas and WoO brass care not about weekly racers. The stars care not about weekly racers. Many car builders care not about weekly racers. They will only care when there are no weekly racers to subsidize their racing.

[Josh Bayko]

Plenty of cars on jack stands because they know they can't compete too.....

He won track championship this year, and with that should be in the starting lineup for the Pittsburgher. He's raced this year more than he has the past few yeass, and is a little faster each night. Dude could be way more competitive with more seat time, however, if he dedicates more time to racing that means he spends less time working and making money, which funds the race car. Chicken and egg kinda deal.

[Kromulous]

Consider this, if there is no weekly racers, who is out there thats gonna buy all this stuff?

Sweet, Keyser, Integra, on and on.

Who is left to buy all the products that are currently out there?

One thing i have wondered about. Are they of the mind that Crate racing can replace Supers in every venue other than a Touring Series? is that what their working towards? Its something to be considered.

If so, i believe they have sorely under estimated the average consumer on both side of the coin. Most would chose not to race, and most fans i believe would not go to see Crates exclusively. At the end of the day Supers are the big draw.

[fastford]

One thing i have wondered about. Are they of the mind that Crate racing can replace Supers in every venue other than a Touring Series? is that what their working towards? Its something to be considered..

thats what GM would like to see......

[riddle28]

while i agree bodies have gotten out of hand, i agree more so with steve in the DoD article talking about the spring/shock setups. He says he doesnt mind working on racecar setup but not in front of a spring smasher all day. these cars can drive in so much harder with the rf/lr combos than even just 5 years ago. Which is also some of why theres been bigger crashes and more injuries the last 2-3 years. the whole dlm package needs re-evaluated

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

while i agree bodies have gotten out of hand, i agree more so with steve in the DoD article talking about the spring/shock setups. He says he doesnt mind working on racecar setup but not in front of a spring smasher all day. these cars can drive in so much harder with the rf/lr combos than even just 5 years ago. Which is also some of why theres been bigger crashes and more injuries the last 2-3 years. the whole dlm package needs re-evaluated

The 1000# of downforce is a big part of the suspension setup magic.

[Nobody]

Are they interested in keeping the cost down? Obviously not! The guy who said that a big majority of the people with the most influence are going to have to step up is right. I believe we the fans can facilitate this change by banding together. Force a meeting with the two heads of State. ( LOLMDS and WoOLMS separately) If someone can make them see it is a more profitable business plan to reduce costs dramatically, then and only then will the problem start to fix itself.

If anyone who reads this has passion enough to invest the time to prepare a petition, I'll be the first one to sign. Just thinking out loud here.

Something has to be done. It's dying a slow death. We've all seen it happen right in front of our eyes. JMO.


The problem is people have too much pull with the council. There is a reason why you can't Bolt lead on the axle but you're allowed to buy a heavy cage or other manufactured component. That's also the reason the council voted to ban the air shock back in May yet it's still legal because someone had enough pull to overturn the entire council.

[old17ford]

Good luck with that. The Lucas and WoO brass care not about weekly racers. The stars care not about weekly racers. Many car builders care not about weekly racers. They will only care when there are no weekly racers to subsidize their racing.

Your spot on that my friend !

[Mike]

The 1000# of downforce is a big part of the suspension setup magic.

Many don't realize this. They just think of air going over the car when people talk aero/downforce.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

They look nothing like this.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://lucasdirt.com/2014-LOLMDS-Rule-Book.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiek_CMrc3WAhXDSyYKHbmWBgQ4ChAWCDEwBQ&usg=AOvVaw2D8F6H2Oj1Ug7UyceZFetB

[STRONGERTHANDIRT]

Wish they did. I live minutes away from Dixie but stayed home and watched Georgia/Tennessee. Go Dawgs!!!

[Highwayman]

Wish they did. I live minutes away from Dixie but stayed home and watched Georgia/Tennessee. Go Dawgs!!!

I’m not sure that was really a game, more of a slaughter. Heard TN will possibly fire coach over that loss.

[Mike]

Add Jason Feger to the aerodynamics discussion.

https://racingnews.co/2017/10/01/jason-feger-cutting-costs-of-dirt-late-model-racing/

[Mike]

Add another one


https://twitter.com/K_Rob7/status/916682521324212224