View Full Version : Who Actually Pioneered The Lifting of Left Front And All The Rear Steer
I'm curious as to who actually pioneered the evolution of laying over to the right side, the right front being way wider than the right rear and all the rear steer with the left rear half disappearing forward into the bodywork.
The first guy I ever saw hike the left front way up in the air was Tom Rients back in the early to mid 1990's at places like Fairbury, Kankakee and Farmer City.
I'm curious as to who should get the credit for this.
formercrewguy
10-12-2017, 10:23 AM
When they went to 4 bars I noticed it mostly. In my area it was the GRT's first. We were running Rayburn's at that time, mid 90's is correct.
cmmg42
10-12-2017, 11:12 AM
I always thought Skip Arp was the one
PRCKartRacer9
10-12-2017, 11:15 AM
I thought it was Around as well. It seemed like Masterbilt, Rayburn, Swartz, Warrior, etc. tried to stay on the ground for as long as they could but they couldn't keep up
PRCKartRacer9
10-12-2017, 11:16 AM
^^^^^Arp^^^^^
Hoosier_Dirt
10-12-2017, 11:22 AM
I thought Larry Phillips came up with the idea, then Skip Arp mastered it?
Krooser
10-12-2017, 11:55 AM
I've been told Skip Arp was the one that moved the LR shock behind the axle... that was the game changer. I believe it was around 1988... didn't take long for others to see what he had done.
The soft right front is relatively new... once the chassis builders went to a raised right side chassis rail and front crossmember things really looked different... that was around the mid-2000's.
Here's 1999... look closely how the cars 'lift' the rear on acceleration and drop when they get off the throttle. Good comment early on about the #32 modifying the Rayburn he's running...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKwWhjwvcOY
golddirt
10-12-2017, 12:36 PM
Tom was th first I saw too. He said if he said set it to stay on the ground it wouldn't run.
MI Dirt Fan
10-12-2017, 12:49 PM
GRT here also. I remember one night I can't remember who was driving but they were carrying the left front so high I thought the car was going to tip over. Dominated the event though. lol
The soft right front is relatively new... once the chassis builders went to a raised right side chassis rail and front crossmember things really looked different... that was around the mid-2000's.
Krooser, since I haven't been involved with anything regarding dirt late models other than enjoying watching them since around 1992 I'm obviously far removed from the loop in regards to chassis and shock dynamics. Given my lack of technical knowledge my question is this. Approximately when did the right front wheel get moved so far to the right and when did the dramatic rear steer become universally applied to DLM's chassis make-up?
TheJet-09
10-12-2017, 01:00 PM
I know Pierce often ran clamped up on both sides, so he had a lot of lift on accel and a lot of drop on decel as it basically dumped the rear of the car.
I see those old videos now and think of how boring the racing looked, even though you could never get enough back then. Cars just skating around, no grip, and looking like weight transfer hadn't yet been discovered (yes, even though it obviously had been). I think the racing was better back then (or at least more cars capable of winning, guys coming from the back, etc.), but I sure like the way things look now. Of course, many think we need to go back to the way things were, so who knows...
highspeeddirt
10-12-2017, 03:29 PM
Surprising how much different the attitude of the cars are now compared to 1999 time frame. I guess over time it was less noticable but when you look at old videos it is really noticable. Those cars ran pretty flat compared to all hiked up now.Not related but man did the lighting suck at some of those tracks back in the day, lol.
PRCKartRacer9
10-12-2017, 03:59 PM
The lighting wasn't as bright as the new LED but the video taping was also very poor quality in comparison to today. Cell phones capture better video than speedvision ever had
a25rjr
10-12-2017, 04:11 PM
It was Skip Arp in June, 1997. Skip was driving the GRT house car and shared a lot of info with our team.
Im not 100% sure when it was available for sale though.
davis2902
10-12-2017, 04:33 PM
Skip Arp and GRT pioneered it but I think Steve Francis mastered toting the LF.
MasterSbilt_Racer
10-12-2017, 04:41 PM
Guys were toting the LF long before Skip's LR behind deal. Everyone toted the LF on the clamped up deal.
MasterSbilt_Racer
10-12-2017, 04:42 PM
It was Skip Arp in June, 1997. Skip was driving the GRT house car and shared a lot of info with our team.
Im not 100% sure when it was available for sale though.
Most chassis builders started adding the mount to the lr in 1999.
a25rjr
10-12-2017, 07:27 PM
Most chassis builders started adding the mount to the lr in 1999.
We got on the Warrior deal, late 97, and before we even got it put together, they sent us a kit to make it lr behind.
Im pretty sure some were quite a bit earlier than 99.
MasterSbilt_Racer
10-12-2017, 07:49 PM
We got on the Warrior deal, late 97, and before we even got it put together, they sent us a kit to make it lr behind.
Im pretty sure some were quite a bit earlier than 99.
It was not known to a lot of small time guys til 1998. Pretty sure 1998 Masters cars didn't have it.
MI Dirt Fan
10-12-2017, 08:08 PM
Now it's all about the RF and having negative camber.
Krooser
10-12-2017, 08:13 PM
My '94 wide combo MB was a leaf car and was converted around '99-2000...
MBR is going to be my go-to advisor next season... he's guaranteed me a spot in the World 100 if I just follow his set-up... not sure if I can afford the J-2 jet engine right now but I'm saving my bucks.
Here's Chubzilla winning at Portsmouth circa early 2000's with a Rocket that was on the hook... the famous 'pass in the grass'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMAAFu0bWNE
MI Dirt Fan
10-12-2017, 08:19 PM
Here's Chubzilla winning at Portsmouth circa early 2000's with a Rocket that was on the hook... the famous 'pass in the grass'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMAAFu0bWNE
Speaking of Chub, I just saw somewhere he was going with a 06' or 07' throwback of his own for DTWC
Krooser
10-12-2017, 08:30 PM
cool.......
Illtsate32
10-12-2017, 08:58 PM
Lol we were carrying the lf on a mod all the way around the track with a 3 link in 96-97 easy drop the rr bar to the bottom hole simple...but wasnt always fastest...compare lap times today and yesteryear theres still track records from years ago just goes toto show todays setups arent necessarily the best...
Drop Shock
10-12-2017, 10:03 PM
Lol we were carrying the lf on a mod all the way around the track with a 3 link in 96-97 easy drop the rr bar to the bottom hole simple...but wasnt always fastest...compare lap times today and yesteryear theres still track records from years ago just goes toto show todays setups arent necessarily the best...
Track records don't fall because of a lack of water. These cars are not much faster in the mud, but easily 1 to 2 seconds faster in the slick than the cars of 15 years ago. The speeds really don't slow down that much throughout the night now.
Jim11h
10-12-2017, 11:01 PM
Very accurate true statement....... I wanna say was around 07 that noticed RF stuck out and the camber gain in corners & straights at Eldora. Rockets were main ones but think if memory serves right bloomquist was 1st to do so
zyoung25
10-13-2017, 12:12 AM
http://i65.tinypic.com/5u0aw.jpg
I done my best to find pics, so we could compare how the early 00 cars are to today's cars. Birky and tmac are both at coming off of turn 2 at east bay. Blair and Richards at coming off of 4 at prp.
I don't see any difference :D
Forward Bite
10-13-2017, 03:16 AM
Gary Webb had to be one of the first to lift the front wheel, if not the first.
I remember when lifting the left front was all the rage. A few guys like Moyer and Bloomquist never did it that much while many others were. Funny how so many quickly got away from that.
Illtsate32
10-13-2017, 01:02 PM
You always wanted more track width on the front but today that right front is a foot outside the rr at least..I honestly dont see how the rf tire holds up as well as it does as much camber as they are running now days...
MasterSbilt_Racer
10-13-2017, 02:04 PM
You always wanted more track width on the front but today that right front is a foot outside the rr at least..I honestly dont see how the rf tire holds up as well as it does as much camber as they are running now days...
Look at the Blair picture. The tire is cambered the wrong way. Today's cars only have excessive camber on the straight. The tire isn't being tortured at that point.
b1eagle
10-13-2017, 06:04 PM
GRT was the first.I had a new one and they told me and Randal Chupp to put this set up on our cars at Bulls Gap.We both done it and thought they were crazy.Chuppp had mech..problems and we started 23rd and was passing for 2nd when we got spun out .We won 13 races and made the world 100 in 1996 in the Grt.
zeroracing
10-13-2017, 07:00 PM
As a guy that back in the LF high riding rage out some cars up on their side or over... I like that front end down feeling much better myself.
70satomic
10-13-2017, 09:39 PM
Freddie Smith's crew had set his car up one night during hot laps and it was 3 wheeling and he came in and was madder than hell , he quickly told the crew he had won all his race's on 4 wheels and to adjust the car right
Illtsate32
10-13-2017, 10:27 PM
Once again monkey see monkey do lol once somebody seen someone else do it then 98 percent of the guys were doing it the next week at that track...
STRONGERTHANDIRT
10-14-2017, 08:05 AM
Rick Aukland carried the left front as well. Thought the car was gonna turn over sometimes.
zyoung25
10-14-2017, 10:03 AM
I remember being a kid and standing in the pit area in turn 4 at prp seeing several cars raise the left front so high, you could see the driveshaft turning.
Looking back, these cars are not easy to see out of as it is. Vison couldn't have been very good at all when the cars were up like that.
It was awesome to see though.
BloomerHarvickFan
10-14-2017, 10:36 AM
My '94 wide combo MB was a leaf car and was converted around '99-2000...
MBR is going to be my go-to advisor next season... he's guaranteed me a spot in the World 100 if I just follow his set-up... not sure if I can afford the J-2 jet engine right now but I'm saving my bucks.
Here's Chubzilla winning at Portsmouth circa early 2000's with a Rocket that was on the hook... the famous 'pass in the grass'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMAAFu0bWNE
Wait a minute. Did they actually give that win to Chub Frank? after he drove through the infield???? How is that not a DQ or 1 lap penalty or something?
I remember being a kid and standing in the pit area in turn 4 at prp seeing several cars raise the left front so high, you could see the driveshaft turning.
Looking back, these cars are not easy to see out of as it is. Vison couldn't have been very good at all when the cars were up like that.
It was awesome to see though.
Tommy Rients said the exact same thing when he first started carrying the left front. Tommy said it got a little scary when all he could see directly in front of him was the top of the left front fender.
LIS20
10-14-2017, 12:25 PM
What did they do - what can you do - to calm down the left front hike
chupp n bloomer fan
10-14-2017, 02:19 PM
Wait a minute. Did they actually give that win to Chub Frank? after he drove through the infield???? How is that not a DQ or 1 lap penalty or something?Yes they did. At that time it was perfectly legal. Right after that they made a rule. I don't blame him one bit. PRP can really lock down, lapper was in the way, Billy went under the tire to pass him, so Chub said watch this sh!t.
I laugh at it, and watch it in disbelief. Chub is a cool dude who doesn't take no sh!t, so I am not surprised he did it.
mcarter815
10-14-2017, 02:53 PM
What did they do - what can you do - to calm down the left front hikeThe lf hike has mostly gone away with the rise of computer programs designing moment center locations. The setups are more balanced today than in the past. http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dirt-race-car-setup/
TheJet-09
10-14-2017, 05:06 PM
When I first went to the spring behind, I think I had a 300# spring on the LR with 300 lbs of bite! Not something you'd see today (at least I don't think so). And I didn't limit travel in any way (well, technically it was limited at some point), so it was as aggressive as it could be.
I'm not sure when they started limiting LR hike, at least across the board by everyone. It sure was fun messing around with stuff back then, though!
Illtsate32
10-14-2017, 07:49 PM
I guess to save the shock but a chain limiter or the shock full extension is still trying to pull the lr off the ground? Is that why they trying to bolt lead to the axles and all this steel wheel heavy birgcage bs... it sound alot to me like robbing peter t o pay paul...
Crossbones
10-14-2017, 09:01 PM
I see those old videos now and think of how boring the racing looked, even though you could never get enough back then. Cars just skating around, no grip, and looking like weight transfer hadn't yet been discovered (yes, even though it obviously had been).
I was thinking the same thing while watching that 99 North/south video (I was at that race).
7tracks
10-15-2017, 12:59 AM
Tom Rients in 1991 won 10 features at Kankakee Speedway, starting the season off by winning 5 or 6 straight with the left front tire way off the ground. Nobody could touch him. First time I ever seen it and back then I was going everywhere. Haven't missed a world since 1978.
MasterSbilt_Racer
10-15-2017, 09:20 AM
What did they do - what can you do - to calm down the left front hike
Roll center location, soft rf spring, stiffer RR spring.
Tom Rients in 1991 won 10 features at Kankakee Speedway, starting the season off by winning 5 or 6 straight with the left front tire way off the ground. Nobody could touch him. First time I ever seen it and back then I was going everywhere. Haven't missed a world since 1978.Kankakee started their season before most other tracks in the area in those days and Tom was winning right out of the gate that year. Word traveled fast at the spectacle Tom putting on at Kankakee and we talked to folks that came to triple K mostly to see Tom lift that left front. The stands were much abuzz when ol' Tom got in his rhythm with the left front hanging about a foot off the dirt.
Tom Rients may or may not have been the very first to hike the left front but one thing is for sure, he definitely was the first in his part of the country to do it. Much like 7tracks I was attending a lot of dirt late model races in those days both as a spectator and as a crew member and Tommy was the first I ever saw.
Highwayman
10-15-2017, 01:42 PM
Tom Rients in 1991 won 10 features at Kankakee Speedway, starting the season off by winning 5 or 6 straight with the left front tire way off the ground. Nobody could touch him. First time I ever seen it and back then I was going everywhere. Haven't missed a world since 1978.
Wasn't that a Bullitt car he ran?
#FALSuperman
10-15-2017, 04:14 PM
Here you go... http://fairburyspeedway.com/gallery/drivers-and-cars-from-yesteryears/tom-rients-1991-260#joomimg
Forward Bite
10-15-2017, 11:45 PM
This thread must be about the first Late Model racer who first hyked up the left front. Midwest racing news had pictures of mods in WI. hyking left fronts late 1960 s and early seventies.
Car Biz
10-16-2017, 12:02 PM
Wasn't that a Bullitt car he ran?
IIRC yes it was. It might have been a Mastersbilt.
Car Biz
10-16-2017, 12:04 PM
Kankakee started their season before most other tracks in the area in those days and Tom was winning right out of the gate that year. Word traveled fast at the spectacle Tom putting on at Kankakee and we talked to folks that came to triple K mostly to see Tom lift that left front. The stands were much abuzz when ol' Tom got in his rhythm with the left front hanging about a foot off the dirt.
Tom Rients may or may not have been the very first to hike the left front but one thing is for sure, he definitely was the first in his part of the country to do it. Much like 7tracks I was attending a lot of dirt late model races in those days both as a spectator and as a crew member and Tommy was the first I ever saw.
I remember it pretty much the same way.
dirty-white-boy
10-16-2017, 12:39 PM
Now its all about air shocks on the LR. Most cars never really settle down "off the bars" anymore. You can see them in the pits just sitting there and the LR is not settled, the air shocks are applying rebound as they sit there.
Back in the day I can recall a race where every car was carrying the LF around the track yet Bloomer wasnt and he set fast time and won his heat going away. When the announcer asked him about the attitude of his car vs. the others he simply said that these cars have 4 tires for a reason. :)
I still say he was one of the first to have REALLY long LF shock travel as well :)
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