Droop Rule and State of DLM Racing

[hardracer32]

SO, y'all hear me out for a minute here. I know there is a lot of discussion going on about the droop rule and and whether it was intended for safety or to level the playing field. Now if it was intended to level the playing field then they should definitely come out and say that's what it is. Personally, I don't care what the reason is because you could pick either and be perfectly justified. These cars and the costs of building one and the technology involved in just being able to show up and race has gotten astronomically stupid!!

So as soon as anyone brings up the money point, you get all these people saying that DLM racing is supposed to be the top tier, it's supposed to be the best cars, the best equipment, the most sophisticated this, and fancy that. Well guess what people, so is NASCAR, so is F1, so is INDY, but they all have rules that put limits on cost, on body designs, on what parts are legal and what are not. You think the droop rules is bad? Go read a rule book and asphalt late models and see how you like that!

But I digress. THe thing is, that DLM's are the absolute best thing on dirt. THey have grown into a huge business, they have developed a fan base that is second to none, they have some of the best drivers in the entire country and we have some of the best racing that you will ever see. But the reason that all of this is possible is because even though this class has ALWAYS been the top class, it has always been ACCESSIBLE! The reason that it has grown into the premier sport that it is, is because the average joe who has some talent, and a good work ethic, could go to his local racetrack, on an open trailer, with a few tires, and compete in a car just like Scott BLoomquist, or Dale McDowell, or Freddy Smith, or insert driver here. THAT is what made late models so successful. The speeds vary so much from track to track and depending on condition of the surface but when people showed up to watch a race they new they were watching the best drivers compete. And when local heros showed up they knew that they had a chance to go door to door with the guys that they had been reading bout in the racing papers and seeing in the magazines.

Not too long ago, a guy could go find a decent used chassis, put a SPEC engine, or small cubic inch, affordable power plant, bolt on a "cookie cutter setup", to to the race track, and if he had some talent he could go out and have a chance to be competitive. But just in the last 5 years or so, the cost of cars, shocks and motors have grown very much disproportionate to the rest of the economy. Now, if you hit the wall and just bend up a few suspension components you're talking about almost as much to repair a shock as it would cost to get a whole front clip! That's insane!

But now all this stuff is out there and the series have let all this get so out of hand that they don't know how to reel it all back in. Well I'm here to tell you that Ray's answer may not be perfect but it is certainly a step in the right direction. DLM's have gotten so ridiculous looking with the bodies that they look wrecked before they ever get on the track. Noses twisted up, doors curved in and runnin up hill at the front so they dont plow going through the corner. Putting in place some rules to get this stuff under control is the only way to get our sport back on track. When I first started racing DLM's in 2001, there were about 6 tracks within a couple hours or less of me that ran Supers every week. Most of those tracks had pretty solid fields. Now, several of tracks have closed down completely, and the ones that are left dont have supers at all. THis has snowball has got to be stopped or the sport that we all love is going to fizzle out and die.

Look, NASCAR, F1, INDY, they are all top tier racing organisations. But you dont see INDY cars running around with giant sideboards, F1 outlaws parts and technology and changes the rules all the time in order to adjust cost and level the playing field. Every series puts out a box and says you have to stay in this box. it's time that the definition of that box for late models is set to a much more reasonable standard. What difference does it make if it slows the cars down a couple of tenths, or even several tenths? The cars at the Gateway Nationals werent going nearly as fast as they do at ELdora but I can tell you that it was one hell of a race.

I just know that something has to be done for our sport to live on for future generations to enjoy, and not just at the top levels, but from top to bottom. Tracks with local, entry level divisions, traveling sereis, all of it. IT's time to put some common sense back in all this.

I know this is a long post but I hope some of you made it all the way through and we can all start encouraging these promoters and series directors to make some changes that will help level the field and make DLM racing great again!

[3 wide]

Well you are correct but I talked to one of the top race car builders last year about this same thing and he tod me that the big money is here and in the sport and things are not going to change till the big money leaves he said it's just that simple.

[onlyfacts]

These rules will drive costs higher. The teams and chassis builders that are willing to spend money on more engineering and technology will have the advantage. The more rules the more important the engineers are. Look at what NASCAR has done they tried to fix it with rules and the big teams hired an engineer for every rule nascar made. Now Nascar is all but dead because the only teams left are the big ones. And it has gotten to the point the big teams can’t justify the costs. If promoters and series keeps making rules we will be talking about how great it was when we use to be able to go to a Late Model Race.The reason Nascar, F1 and top tier Motorsports has very limited number of teams is because they tried to fix the cost problems with rules. 5 years ago we didn’t have all these problems but when the series and promoters started making rules the big teams and Chassis builders stepped up and hired engineers to find speed within the rules. The other issue is the series or the tracks don’t have enough tech people to correctly enforce the rules they make so there is a lot of Grey area for teams to work for in.

[fastford]

hardracer32 ,I,m a little confused about your comparison of DLM to these other forms of racing , are you saying they should use these forms of racing as an example ? because i cant see how all the rules these other forms of racing have implemented have helped them......

[Krooser]

Maybe I'm just lucky but I found a brand new chunk of chain laying on my shop floor last night... guess I'm set if I ever go down south and run that series. That's good because I doubt I could afford the $8.00 it cost at the local farm store. I guess I can affford the droop rule.

Now I'm waiting to find the extra $60- 80,000 worth of shocks, motors and such that are laying around in the corners of my shop that I forgot I owned... that's the stuff I need to run up front on Saturday night.

As usual racers are their own worst enemy...

[CIRF]

I am a more than a decade detached from the science and geometry of dirt late model racing at the highest level so I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to mechanics of those machines.

However, what I'm pretty sure of is that the horse is out of the barn and it's going to be nearly impossible to put it back in. At this point if they go putting in place the restrictions needed to contain and/or roll back costs the cars will not be super dirt late models. They'll be late models but they won't be what we've come to know as unlimited SDLM's.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I am a more than a decade detached from the science and geometry of dirt late model racing at the highest level so I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to mechanics of those machines.

However, what I'm pretty sure of is that the horse is out of the barn and it's going to be nearly impossible to put it back in. At this point if they go putting in place the restrictions needed to contain and/or roll back costs the cars will not be super dirt late models. They'll be late models but they won't be what we've come to know as unlimited SDLM's.

They already made them limited late models. It already jacked the costs too. I disagree about this rule costing folks money. It doesn't tell you how to build the car. Those rules cost money.

[CageFaraday]

They already made them limited late models. It already jacked the costs too. I disagree about this rule costing folks money. It doesn't tell you how to build the car. Those rules cost money.

Wisest person on the thread, who is actually speaking "only the facts", not irrational BS.

[onlyfacts]

Wisest person on the thread, who is actually speaking "only the facts", not irrational BS.Let’s wait and see... if you want to run up front the Chassis builders or teams that have spent more on engineering and technology will be in control of the costs and that is only facts. Not trying to be irrational but I don’t want see Super Late Model Racing completely die.

[CIRF]

They already made them limited late models. It already jacked the costs too. I disagree about this rule costing folks money. It doesn't tell you how to build the car. Those rules cost money.

Please explain in clear and concise detail for those of us uniformed and unwashed as to the unlimited super dirt late division's degradation down into the ranks of limited late models. A self proclaimed bleacher jockey who expects nothing more than to be entertained doesn't know, understand or cares of the nuances of car construction. However, this intrigues me to the point of wanting to know.

[onlyfacts]

They already made them limited late models. It already jacked the costs too. I disagree about this rule costing folks money. It doesn't tell you how to build the car. Those rules cost money.I disagree they do tell you how to build your car... Nose max 13”.. rear deck jacked up 47”. Car must have under slung.. That’s pretty much telling you how to build your car. I just read Lucas and Dirt Car Rules there is plenty under suspension that tells you how to build your car. 4 link is the only suspension that’s legal. Swing Arm or leaf springs are not legal. Their rules also gives you perimeter for the 4 link suspension to fall with in. So these rules pretty much tells you how to build your car.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yes, Lucas tells you how to build the car. Ray gives you a couple measurements to follow. Totally different.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Please explain in clear and concise detail for those of us uniformed and unwashed as to the unlimited super dirt late division's degradation down into the ranks of limited late models. A self proclaimed bleacher jockey who expects nothing more than to be entertained doesn't know, understand or cares of the nuances of car construction. However, this intrigues me to the point of wanting to know.

Prior to 2016, I could build any suspension in my garage that I saw fit and bolt it on my car as long as the rear was a beam axle. Now, you are really only allowed a 4 link with very specific measurements given for bar locations. Many parts I used in the 90s, such as brake floaters and spring rods are expressly forbidden despite very low cost. You are not even allowed to use steel wheels! It's madness.

[race14]

It's all about the$$$ same as everything else. If you want to keep the cost down 500lb spring on all corners steel non adjustable shocks and 358 cu.in. steel block. Obviously no one cares about the money involved, it's gotten too big to make real change. That's all right one day supers will be a one series national tour.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

It's all about the$$$ same as everything else. If you want to keep the cost down 500lb spring on all corners steel non adjustable shocks and 358 cu.in. steel block. Obviously no one cares about the money involved, it's gotten too big to make real change. That's all right one day supers will be a one series national tour.

You gonna tell me where to mount those springs?

[hucktyson]

How is getting the spoiler down out of the air to slow cars down SUCH an offensive idea ?? It lets people keep everything they have except a 200 dollar cushioned limiter for the LR ...

[hucktyson]

As a follow up why can't we get decks back down to 36" and check them after the race like we used to ??

[GRT32]

Get the bodies back under control and enforce the rules

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Just put monoleafs back under them. One fixed eye and one fixed length shackle.

[onlyfacts]

[Quote Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer View PostYes, Lucas tells you how to build the car. Ray gives you a couple measurements to follow. Totally different.] Ray uses the same rules for suspension as Lucas and Dirtcar these new rules are in addition to what is already in place.. he doesn’t allow the “Rumley Device or Spring Rods” nor would he allow more than 2 radius rods per side which is all spelled out in the Unified Rules.

[onlyfacts]

Just put monoleafs back under them. One fixed eye and one fixed length shackle.Not legal in Lucas and Dirtcar.

[onlyfacts]

It's all about the$$$ same as everything else. If you want to keep the cost down 500lb spring on all corners steel non adjustable shocks and 358 cu.in. steel block. Obviously no one cares about the money involved, it's gotten too big to make real change. That's all right one day supers will be a one series national tour.With out perimeters on how the suspension must be built, where and how those springs are mounted this would be the most expensive rule ever. Chassis builders and engineers would have a field day with different motion ratios and components. Everyone would need a new Chassis and components.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Not legal in Lucas and Dirtcar.

Nope. But if they really wanted to change the game for the better as far as $$$, they would do it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Why are we discussing the Lucas/Rumley rules? Lucas done screwed that pooch and everyone jumped on. That isn't Ray's fault. And it was way worse than what Ray is doing. That is all I said.

There is so much money being wasted to make a car get some of the benefits of Rumleys suspension. Had it became the norm, people would simply still be working to maximize it with parts that already existed. Yes, Ray is probably partially trying to help folks that think all they have to do is let their wheel drop down more.

[onlyfacts]

Maybe we could all learn something from this years Chili Bowl. 342 cars entered with no rules for 10,000.00 to win. Go to a the biggest USAC midget race with a lot of rules and you might see 70-80. The cost for a competitive midget to run that race isn’t far from a late model. Go to a local track with USAC midgets and the local racers there are finically stressed as Local Late Model teams at a Lucas or WOO race. So rules may be the problem.

[pfd60]

True, but the mechanics of the suspension of an open wheel car is much simpler than a DLM. Solid front axle and two link rear suspension on a birdcage.
Enforce the body rules and stop qualifying! I am an open wheel fan also. Most midget shows drivers pill draw and then they run passing points. 99% of those races there is more passing in a heat than you will ever see in a DLM
heat.
I used to race open wheel but have been in and out of the DLM for the past 4 years in central Illinois. I just hope to finish in the top half. I'm returning this year but I cannot believe the changes made in the 18 months I haven't raced. I agree the bodies are out of control. Something needs to be done. The chain rule is cheap and a easy way to keep the car from rolling over so far on the right front. Which will take some areo away from the new wedge cars. But they need to enforce a front nose height as well on the right front corner. Just my .02

[CIRF]

Prior to 2016, I could build any suspension in my garage that I saw fit and bolt it on my car as long as the rear was a beam axle. Now, you are really only allowed a 4 link with very specific measurements given for bar locations. Many parts I used in the 90s, such as brake floaters and spring rods are expressly forbidden despite very low cost. You are not even allowed to use steel wheels! It's madness.

Thanks for the explanation of how they've caused the obsolescence of parts and the imposition of certain measurements and wheel composition.

Again, for us uninformed, how does this make limited late models out of unlimited super late models?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Thanks for the explanation of how they've caused the obsolescence of parts and the imposition of certain measurements and wheel composition.

Again, for us uninformed, how does this make limited late models out of unlimited super late models?

The dirt late model was a racing machine with very simple rules. A carbed engine, a 104" wheelbase, engine setback location defined. Basic body dimensions. You could built it how you saw fit. Now, it is cookie cutter. Now it is in a small box. Now, you can only run one suspension. How much more limited does it have to be?

That is the definition of limited racing. The "cheap" limited classes spell out specific things you cannot have. This is what they have done. Perhaps you are trolling? The difference between a street stocks and a super street used to be screw jacks on the suspension.

A SUPER car would have flexible suspension links if the owner wanted. A SUPER car would have 2 rr shocks if the owner wanted. A SUPER car could have as many heims on the lr corner of the car as the creator wanted. A SUPER car would be allowed to have brake floaters that mod guys run. When I grew up at the dirt tracks, that was a SUPER LM. Free to be whatever it wanted under the sheet metal.

[onlyfacts]

The dirt late model was a racing machine with very simple rules. A carbed engine, a 104" wheelbase, engine setback location defined. Basic body dimensions. You could built it how you saw fit. Now, it is cookie cutter. Now it is in a small box. Now, you can only run one suspension. How much more limited does it have to be?That is the definition of limited racing. The "cheap" limited classes spell out specific things you cannot have. This is what they have done. Perhaps you are trolling? The difference between a street stocks and a super street used to be screw jacks on the suspension.A SUPER car would have flexible suspension links if the owner wanted. A SUPER car would have 2 rr shocks if the owner wanted. A SUPER car could have as many heims on the lr corner of the car as the creator wanted. A SUPER car would be allowed to have brake floaters that mod guys run. When I grew up at the dirt tracks, that was a SUPER LM. Free to be whatever it wanted under the sheet metal.You are 100% correct. What we have now is not what Late Model Racing evolved from. Series, Tracks, Racers and Promoters all have ideas for more rules. Problem is they have to make rules for the rules they already made. I remember when if you got beat you went home and worked harder. The guy that worked the hardest usually won. Now we have a bunch of winers that cry everytime someone wins with something they don’t have. So the series and promoters react to the wining with more rules. Sad where Late Models are headed.

[CIRF]

How much more limited does it have to be?I don't know, that's why I asked, you tell me.


That is the definition of limited racing. The "cheap" limited classes spell out specific things you cannot have. This is what they have done. Perhaps you are trolling?Perhaps I'm not.


A SUPER car would have flexible suspension links if the owner wanted. A SUPER car would have 2 rr shocks if the owner wanted. A SUPER car could have as many heims on the lr corner of the car as the creator wanted. A SUPER car would be allowed to have brake floaters that mod guys run. When I grew up at the dirt tracks, that was a SUPER LM. Free to be whatever it wanted under the sheet metal.I see where you're coming from and I now know what you believe an unlimited super late model should be. I would only add that if what you want is a totally unlimited, unencumbered, uninhibited then is it accurate to assume that you'd be in favor of any width tire, a right front that hangs 2' beyond the right rear instead of just a foot, a sprint car style wing and/or 6' left side boards? Now that's my idea of an unlimited super late model stock car.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I believe the very basic dimensions we had 20 years ago were fine and should still be in use. That includes tire size, track width, and wheel base dimensions.
Very basic rules are necessary so that we know what to bring to the track.

[Austin34471]

Gotta draw the line in the sand somewhere. In my opinion, they need to find the areas they want to leave for creativity then lock the rest down. The people saying “rules cost money” are flat out wrong. Those rules are made to keep us from spending money. And most of them do a decent job. Example: no carbon fiber or titanium suspension parts. Example: no enclosures under the car or underbody aerodynamic devices. Example: no inerters. Example: spoilers must be flat and can’t be elevated above the deck to create a winglike effect. Example: no independent rear suspension. Take those rules out and you could build a car that went SECONDS faster around a racetrack. The teams that spent 100s of thousands of dollars in the wind tunnel and using CFD simulations, engineering new rear suspension, etc would be in another zip code as ole Jimmy that shows up in his 2009 GRT. The droop rule is a decent rule and save money in the long run if implemented correctly. Those saying that they need to open up the rule book and give us a wide open sandbox to play in should be careful what they ask for. Jmo

[hucktyson]

A 4 link suspension with a panhard bar and shocks like we run leave you with hundreds of thousands of possible combinations , that along with track conditions that constantly change leaves plenty of room for the little guy to hit the setup on a given night. Geting the spoiler 70" in the air and the nose sealed off favors people with a lot of money to waste. The idea that with no rules a dude with a stick welder under an oak tree in his back yard is going to outsmart teams of engineers is absurd . The more open the rules are the more those engineers can do

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have never seen an affordable aero dependent car. I am in favor of Ray's idea, the Rumley rules, no way. The problem, Huck, is that 99.9% of those adjustments are worthless.

[CIRF]

I believe the very basic dimensions we had 20 years ago were fine and should still be in use. That includes tire size, track width, and wheel base dimensions.
Very basic rules are necessary so that we know what to bring to the track.

You sound like you want to somewhat limit late models. So, by definition you you want a partially limited late model as opposed to a totally open anything goes. That’s cool, Just making sure.

[CageFaraday]

Let’s wait and see... if you want to run up front the Chassis builders or teams that have spent more on engineering and technology will be in control of the costs and that is only facts. Not trying to be irrational but I don’t want see Super Late Model Racing completely die.The best rules make money less effective, but its impossible to stop someone from spending what they want, its a free country(for now). The droop rule is so minor in its effect, I don't see any cost involved at all, only setup adjustments. Super Late Model is at a cross roads, they can continue on there current path of, "High Downforce_High Traction_High Cost" which is unsustainable. Sure from a strictly fan perspective right now everything is cool, the cars are flying, the racing is good, Yip-Pee! On the downside, those of us who've been around a while are noticing some ugly trends. The first is, the cars are and have been turning over with greater and greater frequency. Second, with the increase in roll overs we've also had more injuries and sadly deaths too than in decades past, even with and sometimes because of the improved safety equipment we have today. We went decades with hardly a serious injury or death in the DLM ranks after Jim Dunn. Todays car is nothing more than a return to the infamous Wedge cars of the early 80's through mechanical manipulation and body rules being ignored. Third, people are leaving the sport with about as much frequency as the roll overs, for many reasons, but mainly cost involved. When I say cost I don't just mean money, I mean time and labor involved as well. The time needed to make these cars do what they do is more than most family men can afford to give. So while things may look great at the top of the sport to watch, the base is eroding alarmingly fast.

We no longer have the Dennis Erb's coming thru the ranks with only 1 helper(Dad), 1 car and 1 engine. We no longer have the "Shoe String Traveler" showing up for the World 100 with a suburban pulling an open trailer. The reason why is the costs, in money, in help and in time. Its a fools errand to try and even make a show against Wind tunnel shaped, shaker rig tuned, Nascar powered and NASA designed competitors. But a good bit of that bought and paid for advantage can be nullified by writing rules that hinder the traction potential of the cars, ie less downforce. The reason dirt late model has always been so appealing, both to fans and competitors is the dirt itself, the great equalizer. If you fix the downforce/traction issues, the engine/tire needs and costs take care of themselves.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

CIRF,

We can play semantics all day. It takes some skeleton rules to define what the racing vehicle is. We have to know what a late model is to build one. We had that from the early 80s until 2016. By your current stance, a super LM has not ever existed.

[Bubstr]

I don't believe there is any fix for more or less rules. They will make rules and the racer will find a way around them, until it implodes. Then there will be the next best thing coming out.

No rules was how Knoxville was in the 50s 60s. They started with a modified. Then it was OHV engines, then wings and larger tires. By the early 60s, they had sprint cars racing with sprint cars in desqise. I even seen a blown Hemi in a sprint car in 62. Trouble was, these cars couldn't run anywhere else. They needed some uniform rules or these cars couldn't run anywhere else. It's like Super Mods, If you want to race one, you better live close to NY.

The real problem is pricing the local guy out. With him a lot of his fans go away. Believe it or not, there was Miget races that got 50,000 fans in the seats of Soldier field in Chicago in the 50s. Tech priced out the little guy and took his fans with him. It will happen to DLMs sooner or later, but something will emerge as the next best thing. If you don't think it can or will happen, just talk to a few of Birkey or Brady Smith, or Daren Miller fans. They have trouble going to races since their driver isn't there.

[fastford]

We no longer have the Dennis Erb's coming thru the ranks with only 1 helper(Dad), 1 car and 1 engine. We no longer have the "Shoe String Traveler" showing up for the World 100 with a suburban pulling an open trailer. The reason why is the costs, in money, in help and in time. Its a fools errand to try and even make a show against Wind tunnel shaped, shaker rig tuned, Nascar powered and NASA designed competitors. But a good bit of that bought and paid for advantage can be nullified by writing rules that hinder the traction potential of the cars, ie less downforce. The reason dirt late model has always been so appealing, both to fans and competitors is the dirt itself, the great equalizer. If you fix the downforce/traction issues, the engine/tire needs and costs take care of themselves.

I hear you mr, robin hood , lets take from the rich and give to the poor , which im one of , and that will make the playing field level again , that way when i pull up with my old ford camper and my 1999 hallmark trailer , i will have just as good of a chance of winning as joush richards , that would be great.......

[CageFaraday]

I hear you mr, robin hood , lets take from the rich and give to the poor , which im one of , and that will make the playing field level again , that way when i pull up with my old ford camper and my 1999 hallmark trailer , i will have just as good of a chance of winning as joush richards , that would be great.......

I never said take from the rich, I said make his cash less effective so he can't just buy a victory. You can do what you want to, but Bubstr is right, it will eventually kill itself and something else will hopefully spring up to take its place, maybe... In business they have found its much more cost effective to keep a customer than to try and win them back after they leave or quit. I'd rather see the same logic used on supers, just like they did in the mid 80's with the wedge, change the rules around some so money has less effect. I myself am not holding my breath, I've already found something else to do. I'm done with the discussion, but I hope Ray's attempt at bringing back a minuscule amount of sanity is fruitful and contagious.

[Illtsate32]

Its already become like nascar where as you got your super teams..nevermind the shoestring traveler theres guys that run the whole woo or lucas tours that will never have a chance to win a race...its what makes sports great is when the underdog at least has one...

[Hovlane]

Ok now that the dirt late model crisis has been solved, what solutions can we come up with for PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

[a25rjr]

Just put monoleafs back under them. One fixed eye and one fixed length shackle.

On certain tracks that would be an advantage. I know one car owner, a few years ago, won some big races against the best 4 bar cars!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

On certain tracks that would be an advantage. I know one car owner, a few years ago, won some big races against the best 4 bar cars!

I'd have to see it. I remember running second, 2 weeks in a row, to a better driver with a monoleaf car back in 2001. I wanted to kill myself. LOL

[fastford]

I never said take from the rich, I said make his cash less effective so he can't just buy a victory. You can do what you want to, but Bubstr is right, it will eventually kill itself and something else will hopefully spring up to take its place, maybe... In business they have found its much more cost effective to keep a customer than to try and win them back after they leave or quit. I'd rather see the same logic used on supers, just like they did in the mid 80's with the wedge, change the rules around some so money has less effect. I myself am not holding my breath, I've already found something else to do. I'm done with the discussion, but I hope Ray's attempt at bringing back a minuscule amount of sanity is fruitful and contagious.

so let me see if i understand your logic , lets just say for the sake of argument , joush richards and my self are of equal talent when it comes to driving , now we both show up to race and me , on my shoe string budget , now has a chance to be competitive with him and his unlimited budget because of rules ? ..... I feel the same concern as you guy,s about the survival of our sport , I just cant see where going backwards with the rules will help , JMO.......

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

so let me see if i understand your logic , lets just say for the sake of argument , joush richards and my self are of equal talent when it comes to driving , now we both show up to race and me , on my shoe string budget , now has a chance to be competitive with him and his unlimited budget because of rules ? ..... I feel the same concern as you guy,s about the survival of our sport , I just cant see where going backwards with the rules will help , JMO.......

We already went backwards once and it saved the sport. It can work again. But it has to be done the right way.

[old_wedge_nut]

We already went backwards once and it saved the sport. It can work again. But it has to be done the right way. That sounds logical. Saving the sport is a different objective than making sure the havenots are competitive with the haves. But some of these responses sound like folks are looking for IROC on dirt.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That sounds logical. Saving the sport is a different objective than making sure the havenots are competitive with the haves. But some of these responses sound like folks are looking for IROC on dirt.
That's what the idiots in charge are trying to do now. And they are just making folks invent new necessary parts to spend money on.

[CageFaraday]

so let me see if i understand your logic , lets just say for the sake of argument , joush richards and my self are of equal talent when it comes to driving , now we both show up to race and me , on my shoe string budget , now has a chance to be competitive with him and his unlimited budget because of rules ? ..... I feel the same concern as you guy,s about the survival of our sport , I just cant see where going backwards with the rules will help , JMO.......
No, you obviously don't understand my logic, but I don't expect you too because you've made it abundantly clear you like the status quo. History shows what me and some others advocate for, it works, its proven, its a fact. The problem is there are a lot like you who want your cake and to eat it too. In the small body pre-hike days we had tons more diversity than we do now, much more innovation and experimentation. There were wide frames, narrow frames, over-rail & under-rail, a kaleidoscope of rear suspension designs and much much more diversity. The reason why was limited down force, which in turns limits traction, which in turn levels the playing field. It made it where you could match money against wits. Its hilarious to me the hellacious outrage displayed over a man taking away 1-1/2 inches of hike, you'd think he stole the needles from some heroin junkies.


That sounds logical. Saving the sport is a different objective than making sure the havenots are competitive with the haves. But some of these responses sound like folks are looking for IROC on dirt.IROC is the furthest thing from my mind, that would be crate, which suck. Today its already IROC-esque, with everyone polishing on the same turd and a dozen chassis builders duplicating the same 2 basic designs, XR1 and Longhorn and all those with the exact same suspension. How much more IROC can they be than they are today anyway? Then you go to a race and 80% of the field is running the same car and most likely the same shock package, same tires. That is IROC.

[CIRF]

CIRF, By your current stance, a super LM has not ever existed.Sure they have. I've seen plenty of pictures. They look much like every other dirt late model that ever existed but with some added wingage and/or plexiglass. Everything else is, in fact, a limited late model. Semantic's aside, it's your definition, not mine.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

No, you obviously don't understand my logic, but I don't expect you too because you've made it abundantly clear you like the status quo. History shows what me and some others advocate for, it works, its proven, its a fact. The problem is there are a lot like you who want your cake and to eat it too. In the small body pre-hike days we had tons more diversity than we do now, much more innovation and experimentation. There were wide frames, narrow frames, over-rail & under-rail, a kaleidoscope of rear suspension designs and much much more diversity. The reason why was limited down force, which in turns limits traction, which in turn levels the playing field. It made it where you could match money against wits. Its hilarious to me the hellacious outrage displayed over a man taking away 1-1/2 inches of hike, you'd think he stole the needles from some heroin junkies.

IROC is the furthest thing from my mind, that would be crate, which suck. Today its already IROC-esque, with everyone polishing on the same turd and a dozen chassis builders duplicating the same 2 basic designs, XR1 and Longhorn and all those with the exact same suspension. How much more IROC can they be than they are today anyway? Then you go to a race and 80% of the field is running the same car and most likely the same shock package, same tires. That is IROC.I surprisingly really like these posts.

[Josh Bayko]

I don't believe there is any fix for more or less rules. They will make rules and the racer will find a way around them, until it implodes. Then there will be the next best thing coming out.

No rules was how Knoxville was in the 50s 60s. They started with a modified. Then it was OHV engines, then wings and larger tires. By the early 60s, they had sprint cars racing with sprint cars in desqise. I even seen a blown Hemi in a sprint car in 62. Trouble was, these cars couldn't run anywhere else. They needed some uniform rules or these cars couldn't run anywhere else. It's like Super Mods, If you want to race one, you better live close to NY.

The real problem is pricing the local guy out. With him a lot of his fans go away. Believe it or not, there was Miget races that got 50,000 fans in the seats of Soldier field in Chicago in the 50s. Tech priced out the little guy and took his fans with him. It will happen to DLMs sooner or later, but something will emerge as the next best thing. If you don't think it can or will happen, just talk to a few of Birkey or Brady Smith, or Daren Miller fans. They have trouble going to races since their driver isn't there.

You make a god point about rules, but supermodifieds do exist in a few other pockets around the country, though if you want to run non-wing, you had better live close to Oswego.

[Illtsate32]

I just seen a picture of a woo drivers meeting and 90% percent of the people in it have xr1 shirts on. I just dont think its a good thing too many sheep out there is that because of the rules set in place, I dont know but the market is pretty much cornered right now and a few people have the dlm world eating right out of their hand... not good imo I want competition in every aspect of our sport if this rule helps competition im all for it...

[hucktyson]

The current aero packages are allowing more and more power to be put down ... the more power you are making the more often it needs serviced. The purses promoters can afford to pay can't justify cars costs 110k plus .... it's not brain surgery.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The current aero packages are allowing more and more power to be put down ... the more power you are making the more often it needs serviced. The purses promoters can afford to pay can't justify cars costs 110k plus .... it's not brain surgery.
Yup. We have a better wedge car with better suspension.

[Bubstr]

I'm not sure that all the fans really want a even playing field. It would be very boring races, if everyone was the same. Thank goodness all racers aren't the same. We have passing, because some are faster. Some are smarter or wealthy enough to buy smart. Some polish their salesmanship and get sponsors. There is always a new way to skin the cat. Then there are the ones that can't and want rules to make them competitive. It takes more than just buying a car to make you competitive.

[fastford]

The current aero packages are allowing more and more power to be put down ... the more power you are making the more often it needs serviced. The purses promoters can afford to pay can't justify cars costs 110k plus .... it's not brain surgery.

but thats what the crate cares were suppose to do , limit the cost of the engines so like cagefaraday said , the have nots would have a chance , look how that turned out .......

[fastford]

Ok , we have people on her complaining about HP , some complain about safety , others complain about aero and expensive , and sometimes not so expensive gadgets that creates speed , sure sounds like were headed to nascar conditions to me , and no cagefaraday , im not just referring to ray,s hike rule , but where DLM,s are headed in general. rules are good if there fair across the board , but they have to be enforced and fair to all , even us have nots , Im done with this topic for now , because I can see where this argument could go on for ever , I personally dont see this "rays rule" ever getting of the ground , but time will tell........

[Illtsate32]

I'm not sure that all the fans really want a even playing field. It would be very boring races, if everyone was the same. Thank goodness all racers aren't the same. We have passing, because some are faster. Some are smarter or wealthy enough to buy smart. Some polish their salesmanship and get sponsors. There is always a new way to skin the cat. Then there are the ones that can't and want rules to make them competitive. It takes more than just buying a car to make you competitive.I agree with you Bubs but so many people think that is all it takes..and thats why people can charge $50,000 for a chassis...people think if they buy it thats the magic wand to sucess and its driving up the costs of racing... I dont have the answers but at this point in time I dont think shaking things up will hurt...

[rcmaster]

when nascar engineers got involved our great sport started on a downhill spiral , you people yelling for no rules better like watching a handful of traveling drivers because the locals and the local late model tracks will be gone, the day of the individual building his own motors working on his equipment all night to get to go to races on sat. night over, countless test hours , data acquisition , and tie down rigs, our beloved sport RUINED !

[a25rjr]

I'd have to see it. I remember running second, 2 weeks in a row, to a better driver with a monoleaf car back in 2001. I wanted to kill myself. LOL

I was there turnin wrenches.......more to it than just monos, but still!

[CageFaraday]

but thats what the crate cares were suppose to do , limit the cost of the engines so like cagefaraday said , the have nots would have a chance , look how that turned out .......

Your comparing apples and oranges, crates were an attempt to force everyone to spend the same on engines and a very liberal minded progressive approach in my book. I don't advocate for rules that stipulate that everyone run exactly the same thing of anything, that always leads to cheating. I'll try one last time to help you see the light, but its up to you if you even want to. You simply write the rules so the cars can't hike up excessively and have a maximum body height rule all the way around so they can't roll the car over on the nose without tearing it off. What this does is "Un-Hook" the car so you can't hook up 900HP anymore. Without traction it becomes really stupid to spend $45K on an engine that you are unable to take advantage of. Why buy 900Hp, when you can only use 700HP? If I were writing the rules, first I'd say limit the hike to 2-3 inches above ride height. Second I'd make the body height rule of 6 inches maximum all the way around the car. Third, I'd put in an RPM limit and make the ignition boxes claimable. Now you can buy whatever you want, spend whatever you want, but the car will only let you take advantage of so much.

The crate idea could've been something decent for the very low budget teams had they kept the purses low enough, instead of going head to head with super purses. Now its a Frankenstein monster, that is under powered and over hooked and regularly scalped by professionals looking to pad their income stream. Dumb, dumb, dumb. If you want to have a low budget class, you can't call it "Pro" late model and offer huge purses and not expect people to spend whatever is required to win. But again they are over hooked, so power/speed by any mean$ nece$$ary i$ a mu$t.

To me its not about limiting spending, its about making that spending less fruitful. Be as creative as you want to be, but you have to fit it in this box.

[fastford]

Your comparing apples and oranges, crates were an attempt to force everyone to spend the same on engines and a very liberal minded progressive approach in my book. I don't advocate for rules that stipulate that everyone run exactly the same thing of anything, that always leads to cheating. I'll try one last time to help you see the light, but its up to you if you even want to. You simply write the rules so the cars can't hike up excessively and have a maximum body height rule all the way around so they can't roll the car over on the nose without tearing it off. What this does is "Un-Hook" the car so you can't hook up 900HP anymore. Without traction it becomes really stupid to spend $45K on an engine that you are unable to take advantage of. Why buy 900Hp, when you can only use 700HP? If I were writing the rules, first I'd say limit the hike to 2-3 inches above ride height. Second I'd make the body height rule of 6 inches maximum all the way around the car. Third, I'd put in an RPM limit and make the ignition boxes claimable. Now you can buy whatever you want, spend whatever you want, but the car will only let you take advantage of so much.

The crate idea could've been something decent for the very low budget teams had they kept the purses low enough, instead of going head to head with super purses. Now its a Frankenstein monster, that is under powered and over hooked and regularly scalped by professionals looking to pad their income stream. Dumb, dumb, dumb. If you want to have a low budget class, you can't call it "Pro" late model and offer huge purses and not expect people to spend whatever is required to win. But again they are over hooked, so power/speed by any mean$ nece$$ary i$ a mu$t.

To me its not about limiting spending, its about making that spending less fruitful. Be as creative as you want to be, but you have to fit it in this box.

Sorry , still cant see it new member , but carry on ............

[james white]

This chain is just so the capital cars can keep up as they don't lean as much as the other cars,the higher you get the lr and lower you get the rf the faster you go,most turn overs are getting to one another or the wall not this chain deal ,if you don't want them to lean put the leafs on, this rule has already cost him the race at Boyds.

[Brian Gray]

I’ve already been overwhelmed with requests for my spring rated chain. Each link is +$60 each. You do the math. This is another rule that back fired already. Some of the links are over $100

[CageFaraday]

This chain is just so the capital cars can keep up as they don't lean as much as the other cars...
...so said the rocket dealer.

[hucktyson]

Gray who are these people inundating You with requests for your guidance and parts ?? Surely the are prolific winners and you would be proud to name names ...

[chupp n bloomer fan]

...so said the rocket dealer.So Highwayman, Leafmaster, etc, etc, etc, James White is a Rocket dealer? Capital ain’t keeping up with anyone, not just your favorite chassis brand.

[Necrosis]

Okay Brian Gray, here's an easy enough question. Who is your supplier? There are 2 patents on spring rated chains, and I'm involved with both companies. It's not like it's a secret who they are, so please elucidate!

[rcmaster]

that's ok he will just hand you a piece of chain.

[hucktyson]

Obviously they will be checking the chain ...

[COKEandaSMILE]

Elucidate - make (something) clear, explain.

You're welcome.

[fastford]

man , I cant believe it , I sat and watched all the late models at the ice bowl this week end and not one of them flipped without the droop rule , maybe they all just got lucky, i dont know , maybe some one on here can " Elucidate" this.......

[JabberJaws83]

Okay Brian Gray, here's an easy enough question. Who is your supplier? There are 2 patents on spring rated chains, and I'm involved with both companies. It's not like it's a secret who they are, so please elucidate!

I doubt you’ll get an answer on this, but we’ll see.

[onlyfacts]

Not one car flipped in Arizona and the racing was great with 50 cars for 5,000 to win without a droop rule. Guess when Ray actually has his first race with 15-20 cars and no big name drivers this will all go away. Pretty sure it will go away or Rays series will go away. One or the other.

[DV8]

Did any cars burst into flames this weekend? Have any cars burst into flames since the extinguisher rule was implemented? I really don’t know, I only read here but it seems like someone would have posted that the dirt LM onboard system saved a life. Do we need the rule?

If you guys don’t want to run the series don’t run it, or cheat the chain like we do with everything else in the sport. I’m almost positive that no tech person has enough sense to bounce the LR to see if it stretches. I wish I was a smasher so I could drive these LM sprints.

[Necrosis]

Obviously they will be checking the chain ...They don't have anything to check it with, unfortunately. You could load this chain all you wanted and you'd never know it has any spring effect whatsoever. It's VERY stiff, and really only provides any dampening at the extremes of loading.

[CageFaraday]

They don't have anything to check it with, unfortunately. You could load this chain all you wanted and you'd never know it has any spring effect whatsoever. It's VERY stiff, and really only provides any dampening at the extremes of loading.

So even if you use it you won't gain back the height you lost, just a little dampening at full travel.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Okay Brian Gray, here's an easy enough question. Who is your supplier? There are 2 patents on spring rated chains, and I'm involved with both companies. It's not like it's a secret who they are, so please elucidate!
Anyone can make a spring steel chain.

[Necrosis]

Anyone can make a spring steel chain.Sure can, but make it the same strength of high quality chain AND able to dampen a specific frequency range (fairly wide) very effectively? That's a very tough proposition that fortunately material science has caught up with, and only very recently. Hopefully people won't infer that this was developed for anything racing related, because it's intended application couldn't be further from racing.

[hucktyson]

If a ft long piece of chain would stretch 2" with 200 lbs of load on it , it's going to be pretty obvious

[Necrosis]

If a ft long piece of chain would stretch 2" with 200 lbs of load on it , it's going to be pretty obviousAbsolutely. I don't know what Gray invented in his top secret speed factory, but the chain I'm referring to only has 4-6% elongation.

[CageFaraday]

Absolutely. I don't know what Gray invented in his top secret speed factory, but the chain I'm referring to only has 4-6% elongation.

So any possible gains would be so minuscule as to go unnoticed on the stop watch. No worries, just snake oil.

[a25rjr]

Okay Brian Gray, here's an easy enough question. Who is your supplier? There are 2 patents on spring rated chains, and I'm involved with both companies. It's not like it's a secret who they are, so please elucidate!

Are the patents referring to steel chain or another material?

Im pretty sure a rubber type material could be made into a chain.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Are the patents referring to steel chain or another material?

Im pretty sure a rubber type material could be made into a chain.

A composite would be best for built in damping.

[Necrosis]

Are the patents referring to steel chain or another material?Im pretty sure a rubber type material could be made into a chain.Steel chain.

[Necrosis]

So any possible gains would be so minuscule as to go unnoticed on the stop watch. No worries, just snake oil.What would make you arrive at that conclusion? What do you think are the goals of someone using such a chain? What percentage of elongation have you determined is necessary for any appreciable benefit?Where was the implication that it was worth any speed? Snake oil would imply someone was trying to convince you of the purported benefits in hopes of making a sale. You'll not find that I claimed it to have any benefits. Check out the Reading Rainbow for other helpful hints!

[CageFaraday]

What would make you arrive at that conclusion? What do you think are the goals of someone using such a chain? What percentage of elongation have you determined is necessary for any appreciable benefit?Where was the implication that it was worth any speed? Snake oil would imply someone was trying to convince you of the purported benefits in hopes of making a sale. You'll not find that I claimed it to have any benefits. Check out the Reading Rainbow for other helpful hints!

I was agreeing with you... The percentages you listed were quite small in the grand scheme, so to me its a non-issue as to whether a person need be concerned with getting beat by a chain that barely stretches/springs.

[Necrosis]

I was agreeing with you... The percentages you listed were quite small in the grand scheme, so to me its a non-issue as to whether a person need be concerned with getting beat by a chain that barely stretches/springs.My apologies, I took your post the wrong way. I started drinking early today.