New droop rule

[#FALSuperman]

Here's link to the article... https://racingnews.co/2018/01/21/ray-cook-discusses-the-new-droop-rule/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[petesbuyin]

"I think I had three cars turn over this past year. Out of 30 races, that’s what? 1%? That ain’t like it’s a huge amount."
Ray Cook


And this is the guy that is making the rules? Guys like this making rules is way harmful to the sport than anything going on with the cars.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Ray is as qualified or more than the bozos involved in the Rumley rules.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Rumley rules ? Banned, Illegal, I don't get why your saying those involved ? It was pretty much open rule book, close rule book.

[crownman25]

what ray is trying to do is GREAT.First making older cars be competative so everyone doesn't have to guy buy a new $50,000 race car,2 trying to keep from getting someone injured.What about the car that turned over and burnt a guy up?Sure only 1 car turned over but any of them can catch on fire...The next step needs to be a suspension rule 1 spring per corner no bumps no rubbers ,no dual stage technology has gotten out of control ,lets face it the reason sat night guys cant cxompete its because set ups are so complex and lots of testing spent on them sat night racer has to work everyday he cant go test. if nascar can tell teams what springs they can use so can dirt series,I would like to see winner have to pull his shocks springs off after the race remove covers place on a table and let them be looked at and inspected by anyone nascar does this...

[CarolinaDirt]

It isn't going to matter unless every sanctioned series adopts the same rules . If anything by him doing this alone he has alienated his series from the big name drivers he needs to promote his races. I like Ray but unless everyone is on board this is only gonna harm not help his series.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Rumley rules ? Banned, Illegal, I don't get why your saying those involved ? It was pretty much open rule book, close rule book.

I think you are perhaps unaware.

[Matt49]

The more this sport ends up with essentially different classes due to rules packages being so different from one another, the more you are going to see car counts go DOWN. The last time the sport had a real surge in car counts was when Memmer made basically every race track use the same rules. A guy could take a car and hit the road and race at just about any track with the same race car. And what is happening with the crates is making it worse because so many people want to dumb that down to a street stock. If a guy has an open late model and blows the motor he should be able to drop a crate motor in and go racing in that class. But that isn't the case because all of these crate sanctions have made anything they don't understand illegal in the name of cost savings. Their car counts are going to continue dropping as a result.
What this sport needs is ONE RULES PACKAGE for the cars and keep a crate late model just that. A late model CAR with a crate motor in it. I understand there are going to be different tire rules at different tracks but I shouldn't have to bolt on a totally different suspension package to be legal from one track to another.
And keep the NASCAR mentality out. WAY the hell out! NASCAR cup series cars are glorified street stocks racing for millions of dollars. If you want to spend millions on engineering to win millions, NASCAR is for you.

And for the record, every time someone says, "the technology has gotten out of control", I hear, "I'm not smart enough to figure this out." Am I getting beat by guys that are spending more on "technology"? Absolutely. But instead of complaining about it, I try to figure out ways that I can (as cost-effectively as possible) get up to speed on what I need to stay on top of things. Am I the only racer that thinks like this anymore??? If you can't keep up with the advancements in the class you're racing and don't like it, consider changing classes before demanding that your class change the rules to cater to your lack of desire to learn new things. I'm tired of it. Rant over.

[Illtsate32]

Its a very small percentage of people developing the technology compared to everybody in dirt latemodel racing..as for people needing to "get smart" and figure out a way to compete...well I dont know Ray Cook and Steve Francis personally but id be comfortable saying im pretty sure they are fairly knowledgeable... and they are tired of technology getting out of control..they are tired of it...tired of getting beat by a guy who cant drive a hot nail in a snow bank but has a $110,000 car that is glued to the racetrack...

[Bubstr]

The more this sport ends up with essentially different classes due to rules packages being so different from one another, the more you are going to see car counts go DOWN. The last time the sport had a real surge in car counts was when Memmer made basically every race track use the same rules. A guy could take a car and hit the road and race at just about any track with the same race car. And what is happening with the crates is making it worse because so many people want to dumb that down to a street stock. If a guy has an open late model and blows the motor he should be able to drop a crate motor in and go racing in that class. But that isn't the case because all of these crate sanctions have made anything they don't understand illegal in the name of cost savings. Their car counts are going to continue dropping as a result.
What this sport needs is ONE RULES PACKAGE for the cars and keep a crate late model just that. A late model CAR with a crate motor in it. I understand there are going to be different tire rules at different tracks but I shouldn't have to bolt on a totally different suspension package to be legal from one track to another.
And keep the NASCAR mentality out. WAY the hell out! NASCAR cup series cars are glorified street stocks racing for millions of dollars. If you want to spend millions on engineering to win millions, NASCAR is for you.

And for the record, every time someone says, "the technology has gotten out of control", I hear, "I'm not smart enough to figure this out." Am I getting beat by guys that are spending more on "technology"? Absolutely. But instead of complaining about it, I try to figure out ways that I can (as cost-effectively as possible) get up to speed on what I need to stay on top of things. Am I the only racer that thinks like this anymore??? If you can't keep up with the advancements in the class you're racing and don't like it, consider changing classes before demanding that your class change the rules to cater to your lack of desire to learn new things. I'm tired of it. Rant over.

X2, Matt hit it out of the park here. One rule, same enforcement everywhere and less classes. There are a lot more smart racers than some people think. Then you do see a lot of local racers, that aren't smart enough to know, what tech to buy and are talked into anything. Some are no better than the people on 4m arguing about what engine or chassis is best. If it wins for you, it is best for you. Last I checked, just about all of them, have won for someone.

[DEKconsulting]

Hey does everyone think this brings older cars back into the game i understand if u dont want to work on ur car but with a little bit of inenuity and work u can make a 2012 car droop or risse up in the air just like the newer cars. Done people just dont like to work just dip into the ole pockets and buy speed

[grt74]

it wasn't very long ago we were killing guys with a 2002 grt, we had to use the hot wrench and updated it ourselves but we were up front, and it pissed off alot of people off that spent some serious money, guys a plumb bob, angle finder, and a tape measure will do wonders, then find a shock guy that will work with you !!! and listen to you, but have enough of an understanding of shocks yourself, so you can then look at what you have been running and where to have your shocks changed
and i agree with matt, if your not wanting to work on your car or look for speed, late models are not for you, as far as crates they have gotten way out of hand, no sense in even having that class anymore, 1/2 will go to supers the other half will go to open wheels and there is nothing wrong with that, its still racing

let the beatings begin

[Clayton_Wetter]

Gotta believe the "droop rule" will just go away fairly quick. Since nobody else is talking this rule. At least we don't hear about it.

[CarolinaDirt]

If Ray is still offering money to win his races, then whomever wants it will show up and make the "MINOR" adjustments to compete. Only some neckless goober would pout and leave over this small change.

You mean like his series champion Brandon Overton, how about Donald Macintosh that is now running Lucas or Mike Marlar that is running WOO.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You mean like his series champion Brandon Overton, how about Donald Macintosh that is now running Lucas or Mike Marlar that is running WOO.

I have only heard the argument that one of those is gone due to the rule. And who really knows?

[hucktyson]

You people and by " you people " I mean 95% are absolute clowns . Marlar and Overton are national touring talent that can and do win national touring events. 3-5k to win shows are beneath both of them. McIntosh will be back running those shows by June at the latest. Say 500lb per inch of hike which I think is high unless your running Knoxville or Pittsburgh times 10 inches the top guys will be down that's 5k of downforce.... let's say it's only 2500 ... you don't think that an extra 2500lbs pushing down on the back of the car jamming the rr deeper into a hole doesn't make the car more likely to roll at 130mph ?? It's common sense. 2500/5k in downforce somehow makes racing better ??? It does nothing but make it more expensive. For what ??? So a couple people on here can throw strokes in the sleazy chair watching track records be broken ?? And dudes sit out a year with a concussion ??

[warriorracerg9]

Did wedge cars turn over easier? I realize that they weren't "on the hook" but in your argument downforce is down force right? btw I think you are way off on your numbers. A top fuel dragster makes 10,000 pounds on downforce at 337 mph with a huge wing that is designed in a wind tunnel to do just that. I do agree with you that racing has gotten too expensive but this isn't the way to reign it back in IMO. You cant regress with rules as that only adds expense. You can draw a line and stop progression somewhat but again you cant regress. We race in the southeast mostly with the annual trip to Eldora thrown in and I have rarely seen any track records broken in the last several years. Trying to go backwards with rule packages inherently make racing more expensive. example, If we choose to continue running rays deal we now have to spend money renting tracks, wearing out tires, motors, cars etc to figure out how to be competitive again? basically throw our existing notebook away and start over. I get what you are saying but I respectfully disagree with you that it will make racing cheaper. take asphalt late models for example, they continued to change to rules and now what? they are basically extinct. BTW I am all for safety especially now that I am older and have 2 children but trying to tell me that limiting droop is for my safety is a joke. Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

[CageFaraday]

Did wedge cars turn over easier? I realize that they weren't "on the hook" but in your argument downforce is down force right? btw I think you are way off on your numbers. A top fuel dragster makes 10,000 pounds on downforce at 337 mph with a huge wing that is designed in a wind tunnel to do just that. I do agree with you that racing has gotten too expensive but this isn't the way to reign it back in IMO. You cant regress with rules as that only adds expense. You can draw a line and stop progression somewhat but again you cant regress. We race in the southeast mostly with the annual trip to Eldora thrown in and I have rarely seen any track records broken in the last several years. Trying to go backwards with rule packages inherently make racing more expensive. example, If we choose to continue running rays deal we now have to spend money renting tracks, wearing out tires, motors, cars etc to figure out how to be competitive again? basically throw our existing notebook away and start over. I get what you are saying but I respectfully disagree with you that it will make racing cheaper. take asphalt late models for example, they continued to change to rules and now what? they are basically extinct. BTW I am all for safety especially now that I am older and have 2 children but trying to tell me that limiting droop is for my safety is a joke. Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

Your comparing down force to center of gravity(COG). Todays cars have some of the down force the wedge cars had, but their mechanically induced HIGH COG is what makes them flip. No Wedge cars didn't flip. We went backwards before and it worked out better than anyone could've imagined. Anyone who insults Ray's integrity on what he's saying about why he made this rule, is NOT a man. Ray is one of the few in the sport that actually stands behind what he says, not like the clowns running WoO.

[warriorracerg9]

Well I guess I should tell you that I know and have tremendous respect for Ray cook but I don't have to agree with the rule or why he has imposed it. I am not questioning his integrity as I happen to know that he is an honorable fella. He has called several of us that race with him and I can tell you that no one I know of is in agreement with this rule. don't forget that in racing no matter what the rules are it will always be the have and have nots. the big teams can absorb the cost of rule changes much easier than the smaller local guys and that's exactly where I was going in using asphalt late models as an example. Sure there will be guys that will show up no matter what the rules are but I will leave it at this. Be careful what you wish for.

[Matt49]

Yes, huck's numbers are way off. If late models were generating 5000 lbs of down force we would need about 20 psi in all 4 tires just to keep the sidewalls stood up. Not to mention all of these aluminum body braces and 1/4" bolts would be shredded to pieces. And if they had 5000 lbs of down force they would NEVER turn over unless they went airborne first. As one of the clowns I'm sure he's referring to, I sure am way better at math than the non-clowns.
The uptick in rollovers is because of two things: softer overall suspensions (less roll resistance to get the attitude we want in the cars) and higher dynamic vertical center of gravity due to the lifting of the LR. What Cook has tried to do here is limit the latter with the hope of getting the cars safer. I've met Ray and he seems like a great guy. I don't doubt his integrity and I respect his intent but I think there are WAY simpler ways to do this. It starts by enforcing existing body rules. Get rid of all the "1 inch tolerance" here and "2 inch tolerance" there in the rules. Then (and only then), add a very simple rule that specifies and minimum and maximum nose height all the way across at ride height. Something like 6" minimum and 10" maximum NO TOLERANCE should just about do the trick. Simple to enforce and it would go a long way toward minimizing the affects of the dynamic wedge body. The body rules have gone unenforced and over the years rules have been changed because of the tolerances allowed. Nobody wants to tell a team to reel it in an inch or load up, so they just change the rules to allow it. That's stupid but it's what's been going on for about 30 years. The cars should be "aerodynamic" because the looks appeal to fans. But it shouldn't take 3 people to squeeze the thing into a trailer.
Quick Ray Cook story as it is ironic that the topic was the cost of racing. I was chatting with him at MasterSbilt and we were quickly tallying up all the specialty tools and equipment that a late model team needs. I said something to the affect of, "the cost of this stuff really starts to add up". He said, "well you don't buy it all the same week". I think about that all the time and try to apply it to how we do things.

[CarolinaDirt]

My original point if he wanted to do this he should have gotten all sanctioning bodies on board like what happened with the Rumley rule. When you go at it alone it only hurts his car counts .

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

My original point if he wanted to do this he should have gotten all sanctioning bodies on board like what happened with the Rumley rule. When you go at it alone it only hurts his car counts .

Lucas went at Rumley rule alone. Others just fell in line.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There were thoughts that Ray and others were not going along with the Rumley Rules. Ultimately, unfortunately, they did.

[CageFaraday]

Well I guess I should tell you that I know and have tremendous respect for Ray cook but I don't have to agree with the rule or why he has imposed it. I am not questioning his integrity as I happen to know that he is an honorable fella. He has called several of us that race with him and I can tell you that no one I know of is in agreement with this rule. don't forget that in racing no matter what the rules are it will always be the have and have nots. the big teams can absorb the cost of rule changes much easier than the smaller local guys and that's exactly where I was going in using asphalt late models as an example. Sure there will be guys that will show up no matter what the rules are but I will leave it at this. Be careful what you wish for.

Whether you know Ray or not is irrelevant, you accused him of lying about his intentions with the rules and I take issue with that. The winners, will always win and racing on dirt requires adjustments, always has. All this rule is, is an adjustment and you tune accordingly. Will it take a race or 2 to re-balance the car? Yes, well maybe. The argument about testing is flimsy at best, because most smaller teams don't rent tracks and test anyway. If this situation was reversed and you're chassis builder suddenly offered a new setup that would make you faster, you'd hand over the dough without blinking.

When I was first starting out all we got was a base setup and went racing. Each progressive week of racing was another test and we refined the setup(while we raced), as most any team does that has the drive to win. Unless you are racing for a living, I fail to see why renting tracks and whole day testing is necessary. 85% of those involved in racing do it as a hobby of sorts, not a line of work, so the expense of running won't change. You'll still be buying the same tires, the same fuel and going to the same races, only you may need to refine your setup. This is not the earth shattering event some are making out it is.

[warriorracerg9]

I didn't accuse anyone of lying about anything. I said to tell me that its for my own safety is a joke and in my opinion (which I have a right to as do you yours) it is. we have to have these high dollar cells too but no one says anything when someone has a hole clamp on the fuel line to the fuel pump lol. if we are worried about safetythen enforce the rules that are already in place not keep adding new ones. that's the problem with his board. no one can have a difference of opinion without being able to respectfully debate it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I didn't accuse anyone of lying about anything. I said to tell me that its for my own safety is a joke and in my opinion (which I have a right to as do you yours) it is. we have to have these high dollar cells too but no one says anything when someone has a hole clamp on the fuel line to the fuel pump lol. if we are worried about safetythen enforce the rules that are already in place not keep adding new ones. that's the problem with his board. no one can have a difference of opinion without being able to respectfully debate it.

Are you not saying the rule isn't about safety?

[Kromulous]

I'm with Warrior on this one, safety is kind of on you when you strap into a 900 hp race car made of sheet alum and tube steal. Dont come crying to me when you hit a wall, were all big boys here.

As for flipping over, non issue being beaten to death.

Enforce the rules you got, yes, how about a safety tech inspection? back in my old Karting days, they would safety tech your kart, and you could NOT run if you didn't have all the bolts wire tied, and or captured. All they want to do now is mandate stuff for the racers to buy $1500 dollar seats, fuel cells, and fire devices, mean while you got guys out with stuff half a$$ put together, doesn't make any sense.

[Illtsate32]

Whether you know Ray or not is irrelevant, you accused him of lying about his intentions with the rules and I take issue with that. The winners, will always win and racing on dirt requires adjustments, always has. All this rule is, is an adjustment and you tune accordingly. Will it take a race or 2 to re-balance the car? Yes, well maybe. The argument about testing is flimsy at best, because most smaller teams don't rent tracks and test anyway. If this situation was reversed and you're chassis builder suddenly offered a new setup that would make you faster, you'd hand over the dough without blinking. When I was first starting out all we got was a base setup and went racing. Each progressive week of racing was another test and we refined the setup(while we raced), as most any team does that has the drive to win. Unless you are racing for a living, I fail to see why renting tracks and whole day testing is necessary. 85% of those involved in racing do it as a hobby of sorts, not a line of work, so the expense of running won't change. You'll still be buying the same tires, the same fuel and going to the same races, only you may need to refine your setup. This is not the earth shattering event some are making out it is.Ya testing is stricly your personal decision no ones saying you have to go blow money on tires, motor etc dont try blaming that on a rule...

[let-r-eat]

Rolling over is an issue. Anyone saying that there haven't been more rollovers in the last few years than in the last 40 years hasn't been to enough dirt track races. Rules should be made with the poor boy racer in mind but often works in the exact opposite manner. Limiting the height of the deck/spoiler/nose are no brainer rules..... like wheelbase/engine type............

[CageFaraday]

Ya testing is stricly your personal decision no ones saying you have to go blow money on tires, motor etc dont try blaming that on a rule...

Try reading my post again... That's what i said, most teams didn't test or rent tracks before this rule, to claim that now as an expense, that is being a bit disingenuous.


...Its like telling me you are feeding me a steak but I good and well its liver.

You're saying Ray is telling you that you're eating steak when you KNOW it is liver. Which is the same thing a as saying Ray is lying to you about his motives behind the new rule. Bottom line, cars flip more now than they ever have and if left unchecked it will get worse as the cars get higher and higher. We've already had at least 1 death and 1 serious burn injury and several concussions related to flipping and these guys all had the "hot shot" FC seats, which helped to trap them in the car as well. Ray, like a lot of more experienced racers can see the writing on the wall and is making a change. I can debate rules all day long, but I won't tolerate anyone insulting or accusing Ray, even in an indirect manner. Ray is one of the few honestly good guys in racing and should be respected as such. Every point I've made with you you side stepped and now want to talk about hose clamps on fuel lines. I'll make my questions more direct:

1. Prior to this rule did you rent tracks and do all day testing to get your current setup?
2. Do you plan to rent a track and test as a result of this rule?

[crownman25]

it something isn't done next year or by the end of the year the nose height will be 20" what about that guy yall mentioned that does not even have a rf fender top? nascar controlled drop with there splitter you got to have rules and control...between high dollar motors and now high dollar cars our sport is dissolving.My first car was a mastersbilt kit car for $7995.00 that was shocks , springs complete roller. ..you can not buy chassis for that now...the one thing that would solve everything would be move the spring back in front hooked to birdcage!!!!!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

it something isn't done next year or by the end of the year the nose height will be 20" what about that guy yall mentioned that does not even have a rf fender top? nascar controlled drop with there splitter you got to have rules and control...between high dollar motors and now high dollar cars our sport is dissolving.My first car was a mastersbilt kit car for $7995.00 that was shocks , springs complete roller. ..you can not buy chassis for that now...the one thing that would solve everything would be move the spring back in front hooked to birdcage!!!!!
Cash money series will see your last sentence is incorrect.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Want no hike? Monoleaf.

[crownman25]

look guys super racing is like an endangered species ,if you dont figure out what is killing it it will be gone..sure lucas and woo is flourishing in most areas but that because its the only super stuff in certain area and people flock to it but on the local sat night end racing is dying in alot of places...Ray is looking ahead trying to help save the sport...everytime a car rolls I hold my breath that it doesn't go up in flames...

[Illtsate32]

Try reading my post again... That's what i said, most teams didn't test or rent tracks before this rule, to claim that now as an expense, that is being a bit disingenuous. You're saying Ray is telling you that you're eating steak when you KNOW it is liver. Which is the same thing a as saying Ray is lying to you about his motives behind the new rule. Bottom line, cars flip more now than they ever have and if left unchecked it will get worse as the cars get higher and higher. We've already had at least 1 death and 1 serious burn injury and several concussions related to flipping and these guys all had the "hot shot" FC seats, which helped to trap them in the car as well. Ray, like a lot of more experienced racers can see the writing on the wall and is making a change. I can debate rules all day long, but I won't tolerate anyone insulting or accusing Ray, even in an indirect manner. Ray is one of the few honestly good guys in racing and should be respected as such. Every point I've made with you you side stepped and now want to talk about hose clamps on fuel lines. I'll make my questions more direct:1. Prior to this rule did you rent tracks and do all day testing to get your current setup?2. Do you plan to rent a track and test as a result of this rule?Ya Cage I was just referencing your statement, no I agree with you 100%...

[Bubstr]

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.

If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.

Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.

So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?

You can not move mass so high and stay below the ridiculously dropped decking.

[a25rjr]

We've all seen the major heavy components get mounted higher and higher and now even the framerails themselves are higher. It would probly call for a new chassis design to get them back down. I don't think that would fly with the racers or mfrers at this time.

The top of the rollcage def needs to be higher. If you have ever seen the video where the sprint car is used as a test sled, the drivers head moves about 6 inches above the rollcage at impact. I know the cars are totally different but there is a correlation of how far those belts stretch upon a sudden impact.

Something def needs to be done before some of our stars are severely hurt or killed! imo

[Bubstr]

You can not move mass so high and stay below the ridiculously dropped decking.

There are more than one way to skin a cat. Moving a engine and tranny up 1 inch is like moving 20 lbs of ballast 10 inches above that deck. Back in the 60s, I filled a upper rear cage tube full of #8 lead shot. It was too much. Just saying the sheet metal isn't what weighs the most.

If you was really intent on reducing down force, the front end is where you should be looking. Raise that nose and let air under it. The difference of air pressure above and below is what causes down force or airplanes to fly. No seal on the front, no skirts, no carb pans and eliminate the venturi effect of those elephant ear fenders. More effective than a droop rule. This will not keep drivers from head injuries. Getting their head out of the way of the track, can solve this. The way it is now, we hold that head up with a containment seat and hons devise and wac it with the weight of the car. Easy to understand if you look with an open mind. That is just the way I see it, not bashing anyone.

[crownman25]

Here is something else Probb. number one cause of rollovers are broken rf shocks ,yes when a car goes into corner loads bump up shock becomes a solid rod then those hollow stem shock shafts snap off or upper shock mount breaks causing the crossmember and rf frame rail to go into the track and flip the car.. this is why we need rules...its dangerous to be racing on a solid rf suspension its going to break....

[let-r-eat]

I personally think it's just a rule that is derived from the progression of DLM racing. I look at McGuire's incident a few years ago. Rolling the car without doing anything more than catching a rut. I've noticed more and more doing this exact same thing. It's usually early in the night on a hooked up track that is rougher than usual due to moisture. You are solid on that RF in a rut and the car snaps loose. I've seen other incidents of cars just plasted sideways in front of the oncoming traffic due to solid RF hitting ruts and the least little bit and they are on their top.

[CageFaraday]

I'm not looking to argue either, matter of fact I agree with you on several points, just not all.


I'm not looking for an argument, but lets take a pragmatic look at this droop rule.

Have you ever seen down force flip a car? They build down force into NASCAR and Indy cars to keep them from flipping.
This statement is 50/50 right and wrong. First, no I have never seen downforce(ie, aerodynamic load) induce flipping. Second, "Downforce" isn't used specifically as an, "Anti-Flipping" measure, although I concede it can help. Down-force/Aerodynamic load is typically sought to add traction by adding downward pressure on the body, which in turn loads the tires thru the suspension, which in turn increases overall traction. This higher traction increases cornering speed capability, which in turn increases overall speed. The pressure does push down on the car and can make flipping more difficult, but its a side effect not the motive.



If a Go Kart can bicycle and flip, it not just height.

A lot of late models dig the nose in the dirt and just turn the nose under, so it isn't the low nose.
I raced Karts for many years and have never seen a kart bicycle or flip without physically being pushed over by another kart. No matter what is done, in racing sometimes things turn over. I will add though, from 1986 to 1997 I only ever saw 3 late models ever turn over. 2 were pushed over in a group by other racers and the other 1 left the track @ over 150 mph, climbed the wall and sailed thru a chain link fence and landed upside down. Since 1998 when the hiking up got started I have lost count of the number of cars that just dig in and flip. You are correct in that the nose piece itself isn't what makes the cars dig in and flip, its a combination of attributes that includes the noses attitude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDr0ukyq8I "Its here on video."


Fact is, it is the relationship of the roll centers and the center of gravity. Makes you ask why would they do that? Answer is the closer you are to bicycling, the more side bite and forward bite you have. There is also a balance between front and rear that can put you in a tippy condition at times. It's easier to adjust ballast and rear roll center than the front roll center. Stuff happens. This has been true since the first car raced.

100% correct, no argument in any of this statement.


So if we change the droop, the crew chief changes roll centers and center of gravity, to try and get some of that bite back. Once again a tippy car at times, with out the down force to help it stay on all four. This doesn't sound like a fix to anyone that understands this.
Once again you nailed it. Even with this rule change, the smart people will make adjustments to get the traction back and raising the ballast and changing roll centers will help. The thing is with this new "Droop Rule", even though it refers to droop it really is a, "deck height" rule which brings the ceiling lower and limits how high the ballast can be raised. I'm sure if this works out that in the future if all the racers raise there ballast to adjust and the flipping continues, then the deck height will be made lower until we reach a point of equilibrium.


So, just exactly what are we trying to fix? I suspect it's not getting drivers hurt. So lets look at why they are getting their bell rung. Answers, are cages are lower, containment seats hold that noggen up and in the way for the blow.

It's just my opinion, but droop is not causing broken noggens. The rule should be, so many inches of clearance above the helmet and while we ar at it, easy egress from right or left side. Does this make any sense to you guys?
Once again you are exactly right, droop alone isn't the source of concussions. Its just as you said, the combination of low roof lines and FC seats hold the drivers head up nice and straight like holding a nail before you drive it and whack! These things also contribute to entrapment when the car flips over, small window and if your a larger fellow like me that FC makes it pretty much impossible to go out the RS even sitting upright in the shop. So this is how I believe this solution was arrived at, Ray looked at what was happening and followed the chain of evidence back to the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is just like you said, the MASS of the car is too high and makes cars more likely to flip. The droop rule isn't about minimizing downforce, its about lowering the ceiling on the height of the mass. Sure a lower deck does reduce downforce, but it isn't the motivator. The bit about the nose height also hinders the ability to "Roll" the car into the attitude where the mass is so high. I agree that racers will simply adjust by moving things around, but this I believe is just the first move in limiting how high the mass can be. Otherwise if they'd wanted to fix the low roof lines, a whole lot of cars would have to be cut up or scrap'd. So what do you do? You either attempt to make the cars less sensitive to flipping or scrap a ton of cars at a huge expense to a lot of people who might not go for it... To me this rule is the simplest with the least expense involved to anyone.

[Kromulous]

I'm sorry but if you go out on a tacky track with ruts on a bump stop and or air shocks, you deserve to flip. Like i said before were all big boys here, take some responsibility.

Never seen a Kart bicycle? on pavement or dirt? hmm my brother passed 3 guys in one corner on 2 wheels, Kart was close 60* degree's form horizontal on 2 wheels. After the race they came whining about cutting off their line LOL... That was the last time we race on pavement, a bunch of follow the leader whiners.

[Bubstr]

We are close enough to agreeing, other than I have seen a dual engine dirt kart bicycle and do wheelies.Think they no longer run them now.

No one is going to rule stupid out of center of gravity height, so the only reasonable thing is to make the cage safer. You could start with a suggestion and a warning that low roof lines will be fazed out by the time today's car needs replaced. That may be too slow or even unfair to the racers that upgrade before it's mandatory, but it's not a easy fix. You could probably fix it faster if chassis makers had a up grade available. Set seat in lower or tilt it, just get that head clearance. Possibly a quick disconnect roof would be the answer for getting out. Even with the fire suppression, it's only a matter of time before one of our drivers turn into a crispy critter again..

[IZZOJR16]

Good reads in this thread fellow 4mers👍👍. Very knowledgeable stuff, learned something from it.

[TBSprintFan]

Good reads in this thread fellow 4mers. Very knowledgeable stuff, learned something from it.

Here is a question and maybe someone in the know can answer, why haven't we heard from Steve Francis regarding all of this? Wasn't he as a driver complaining on the way things were going with the bodies and now as Lucas Oil technical director (since November) there is nothing out of him.

[Illtsate32]

By my eye it looks to me like the cages are taller than they've ever been. Am I wrong on this?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

By my eye it looks to me like the cages are taller than they've ever been. Am I wrong on this?

Some are taller. Not enough in many or all cases.

[Bubstr]

Here is a question and maybe someone in the know can answer, why haven't we heard from Steve Francis regarding all of this? Wasn't he as a driver complaining on the way things were going with the bodies and now as Lucas Oil technical director (since November) there is nothing out of him.

Francis knows anytime you write in that rule book, it costs someone money. It's something you put a lot of thought into. Up till now, Steve had only the racers point of view, It's hard to vote against your own pocket book. Now he has responsibility to the Series, Vendors, Promoters and the racers. There have been too many rules made too fast in the past. If it was me, I'd enforce the rules we have that are enforceable and throw out or change the ones that are not. Then see what we have. The rules didn't get this way over night and they won't be fixed over night, if at all.
.

[CageFaraday]

I'm sorry but if you go out on a tacky track with ruts on a bump stop and or air shocks, you deserve to flip. Like i said before were all big boys here, take some responsibility.

Never seen a Kart bicycle? on pavement or dirt? hmm my brother passed 3 guys in one corner on 2 wheels, Kart was close 60* degree's form horizontal on 2 wheels. After the race they came whining about cutting off their line LOL... That was the last time we race on pavement, a bunch of follow the leader whiners.


We are close enough to agreeing, other than I have seen a dual engine dirt kart bicycle and do wheelies.Think they no longer run them now.

No one is going to rule stupid out of center of gravity height, so the only reasonable thing is to make the cage safer. You could start with a suggestion and a warning that low roof lines will be fazed out by the time today's car needs replaced. That may be too slow or even unfair to the racers that upgrade before it's mandatory, but it's not a easy fix. You could probably fix it faster if chassis makers had a up grade available. Set seat in lower or tilt it, just get that head clearance. Possibly a quick disconnect roof would be the answer for getting out. Even with the fire suppression, it's only a matter of time before one of our drivers turn into a crispy critter again..

All my karting experience was on dirt, single engine, Stock up thru Limited Briggs Flat head. I don't do asphalt anything, bores me to tears. Good talking with y'all. Later.