Whats next?

[a25rjr]

We have seen several innovations the last few years on dlm's. Some that even defy the laws of physics. Whats next on the horizon or where do you see room for improvement? Here's mine: I believe fuel cell design to enhance weight transfer. Whats yours?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

We have seen several innovations the last few years on dlm's. Some that even defy the laws of physics. Whats next on the horizon or where do you see room for improvement? Here's mine: I believe fuel cell design to enhance weight transfer. Whats yours?

defy physics? Not sure about that one. LOL. Some fuel cell work has already been done.

[billetbirdcage]

Harmonic frequencies

[a25rjr]

defy physics? Not sure about that one. LOL. Some fuel cell work has already been done.

Probly not the correct words.....How bout chassis theories that turned out to be wrong or could be overcome? The fuel cell design has changed very little and could be radically re-designed easily, to fit modern set-ups!

[Kromulous]

Billet is on it IMHO.

Designing a Chassis in a good CAD system and getting some stress analysis done on the various tubing and materials etc would pay big dividends.

Aero is still big, and i think there is room to make some improvements.

How about air springs !!!

[Mopar DLM]

Tires, variable durometer tires. They start the race soft then get hard for the middle of the race then go soft for the last 10 laps or so. Or even a tire that never goes away and never wears down. Would sure help my yearly tire bill.

[a25rjr]

Harmonic frequencies

In relation to _________?

[billetbirdcage]

In relation to _________?

All I'm gonna say is ¯\_( ' ' )_/¯

[mickley.28]

For the price of a new xr1 fuel cell there better be some pretty trick stuff inside.

[a25rjr]

What about tires? Anyone cutting them up and having an engineer examine its construction and evaluating its ingredients? Seems to be far more money spent on the chassis side than the actual part that contacts the track!

[fastford]

i have wandered about going to a down tube chassis , with a bar running from the top , right corner of cage , to where top of right front shock is , kind of like a sprint cage , with the load being applied to the right front these days , less flex might help......TNT built one like this several years back....

[Mr.Kennedy777]

In relation to _________?Everything on the car is in pulses. Engine power production all the way down the drive train to the tires. Tires are a spring and also have a frequency. Springs have a frequency, everything in nature, even, happens in waves and has frequencies. Some of these frequencies create overtones by being multiplied over a certain area. The harmonic frequency would be any type of vibration that would be the result of the smaller fundamental vibrations. I think with race cars you would find these harmonic frequencies in the chassis structure itself as a result of the numerous fundamental vibrations, tires, springs, links and power input, brake forces and cornering forces and even the way the frame is put together and the material it’s made from. Changing the shape of the car, by testing the way it behaves under frequency input could help get rid of the resonance frequency making the car more stable.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

They’re doing quite a bit of this testing in F1 cars if I am not mistaken.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

We have seen several innovations the last few years on dlm's. Some that even defy the laws of physics. Whats next on the horizon or where do you see room for improvement? Here's mine: I believe fuel cell design to enhance weight transfer. Whats yours? Honestly, this is a bit of a long shot, but improvements in the materials themselves that make up different parts of the car. For example, graphene. While it’s still expensive at over 200 a gram, it’s use in the development of low oxide polymers has allowed for better products to emerge. Increased thermal conductivity and dimensional stability, increased fire resistance, electromagnetic shielding, stain repellant, reduction of plastic mass, increased impact resistance, increased electrical conductivity if desired, and one better yet, is that it can be incorporated as nanoplatelets in (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) near any type of rubber, urethane or polymer compound. The potential for use of this product are limitless, graphene is the strongest material ever tested, with an intrinsic tensile strength of 130.5 GPa and a Young's modulus of 1Tpa. Some scientists have been experimenting with it, trying to create an alloy and they’ve made a nickel and copper graphene alloy that makes the copper 500 times as strong as it would be on its own and the nickel 180 times as strong. 0.00004% in weight of graphene increased the strength of the materials by hundreds of times. Those are some direct quotes regarding the implementation of graphene as a structural material. What does this mean for racing though? I think we’re on the brink of super materials becoming common place not just in society but soon levels of competition around the world. I think if they find a way to incorporate it into tires in a legal fashion, the durability of soft compounds could be increased exponentially, which means tire prep could be taken to levels not even seen before. Even without tire prep graphene will increase the tires ability to create traction and increase tread life. Also, it will allow for even lighter tires which is currently not something we can do with current construction and compounds. Something to think about.

[fastford]

Mr. K , I think what you are talking about above would be another nail in the coffin for SLM,s , no average , do a lot of it your self racer like me , would ever be able to afford this , we need ideas within the means as a whole . I do think the tire manufacturers could improve there product though , especially with what there charging for about 10 bucks of raw materials these days , or at least thats what i was told by a distributor a tire cost as far as raw materials go......

[dirtrace09]

i have wandered about going to a down tube chassis , with a bar running from the top , right corner of cage , to where top of right front shock is , kind of like a sprint cage , with the load being applied to the right front these days , less flex might help......TNT built one like this several years back....

I have had two modifieds that I have added an adjustable bar to from a down tube to the rf stub by the shock. It made a very noticeable difference playing on the right track situations by stiffening or letting it flex more. I am not sure though on the late models now how much you need that with all the other adjustments with shocks, tires, springs setups, etc... and no big heavy stub. But, another trick in your tool box I am sure is always helpful.

[petesbuyin]

i have wandered about going to a down tube chassis , with a bar running from the top , right corner of cage , to where top of right front shock is , kind of like a sprint cage , with the load being applied to the right front these days , less flex might help......TNT built one like this several years back....

Charlie Swartz did that 30 years ago. Had them on both left and right, from the top of the cage forward to the upper shock mount. Ran it half a season before he cut them back off.

[Kromulous]

The hand writing is on the wall, it wont be but about 5 years or so and these Chassis will have to SFI Inspected and Certified. Just like Drag racing, Certified to there level of competition. Their doing it on seats now, wont be long. SO that's gonna leave the door open for new designs and materials, plus more $$$

You could go all Tig welded, stress relieve them etc. I see the Chassis cost reaching 10k bare easy.

LOL on the XR1 Fuel Cell too ! I about fell out of my chair, I think that would be a good business to be in !

[fastford]

Charlie Swartz did that 30 years ago. Had them on both left and right, from the top of the cage forward to the upper shock mount. Ran it half a season before he cut them back off.

things have changed a whole bunch in 30 years , the load that is placed on the rt upper shock mount is tremendous when you consider when momentum begins on a soft spring and basically comes to an abrupt stop when it hits the bump stop or second stage.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

Mr. K , I think what you are talking about above would be another nail in the coffin for SLM,s , no average , do a lot of it your self racer like me , would ever be able to afford this , we need ideas within the means as a whole . I do think the tire manufacturers could improve there product though , especially with what there charging for about 10 bucks of raw materials these days , or at least thats what i was told by a distributor a tire cost as far as raw materials go...... Well with the graphene stuff, it’s becoming so much more common everywhere, not that long ago it was over 10,000 a gram, now it’s 98 bucks and it still hasn’t taken a set in the market like it’s going to. Give it a couple years and graphene will be quite cheap. It’s easy to make. Large flake graphite you can get for about 3,000 a tonne (2200 pounds), and you can make graphene powder at home from graphite. A couple of buddies and I are going in on a tonne here and trying our luck making it. If you can make the powder, and not even the sheet graphite, you’re still able to produce a pretty large quantity of it.You just need sulfuric acid to oxidize the graphite and separate the water produced using a filter, and then apply hydrazine to pull the oxygen up. Then you reduce it down to a powder, from there you could use that to apply it many different things. So it seems like it might be nail in the coffin, but realistically it’s not as expensive as it sounds.To put it in perspective, graphene was discovered and first made by two guys using scotch tape on graphite flakes.

[fastford]

I,m afraid you have exceeded my pay grade , but , good luck with that.......

[CCHIEF]

Graphene is that like Jethrine Bodine? https://ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=backroom;pid=295286;d=this

[Mr.Kennedy777]

Graphene is that like Jethrine Bodine? https://ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=backroom;pid=295286;d=this LOL Noooooo! Check out some random videos on graphene used in polymers.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5q5dCuptXmc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXvEepLSoDE http://www.thisisinsider.com/graphene-unbreakable-rubber-bands-2017-8 It won’t be long until we see it in literally everything.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

It’s expensive now, but because of how common it is, and once production methods scale up, and demand goes up, it will be pretty cheap and found in almost everything we use.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

https://youtu.be/OZW3a-AvEgE Here is a link showing how much more flame resistant graphen reinforced plastic is compared to more common plastic.Here is another video showing how strong it is when mixed into plastic.https://m.youtube.com/https://youtu.be/OZW3a-AvEgE?v=YXZ1gfJMtW4

[fastford]

as far as a DLM goes , what would be the purpose of making the plastic components , allowed to be used , stronger ? carbon fiber wheels have been around for a while , but there banned by most tracks and sanctions , so I doubt it would ever be allowed for wheels , I,m just curious as to where you think this product could , or would be allowed , to be used and the benefit ......

[Kromulous]

Very cool stuff ! Could you add it to plastic, or some foam type polymer and inject into a tube to make the tube stronger? Would be useful in roll cages, driver area per say. Also stiffening portions of the chassis.

Additive in tires would be interesting too, i doubt anyone at Hoosier would want to do anything to add life to a tire LOL...

[old17ford]

i have wandered about going to a down tube chassis , with a bar running from the top , right corner of cage , to where top of right front shock is , kind of like a sprint cage , with the load being applied to the right front these days , less flex might help......TNT built one like this several years back....

Im not sure but think the KILLER chassis has the bars like that .

[fastford]

Im not sure but think the KILLER chassis has the bars like that .

they do , there was a paraplegic guy from north alabama , named mark dowdy , that they built him a special chassis that he could get in and out of and drive , very good people , but like the rest of the small chassis builders , hard to get recognition with out a well known driver driving your stuff......

[Krooser]

The late Jim Watson built a dlm with downbars in the late 80's...ran it at Hales Corners and maybe some open shows around the Midwest.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

as far as a DLM goes , what would be the purpose of making the plastic components , allowed to be used , stronger ? carbon fiber wheels have been around for a while , but there banned by most tracks and sanctions , so I doubt it would ever be allowed for wheels , I,m just curious as to where you think this product could , or would be allowed , to be used and the benefit ...... I’m not talking wheels like rims. I mean the actual rubber of the tire. Even a graphene oxide latex mixed with the compound would increase the tires life and grip quite a bit. If smaller layers of that hexagonal lattice were separated it would crystallize inside the compound offering tremendous gains. As for plastics, anything plastic you could extend the life of. If you had the option to purchase a stronger lighter material that was plastic for like 5 dollars more would you? Of course. Thing is to get gains in plastic you don’t even need pristine graphene, you can use the graphene oxide which is much easier to produce. Another thing I had mentioned was it’s use in alloys. Now the average guy won’t be able to make the alloy, but give it time, you’ll see some magnetic steel graphene alloys being used to increase the strength of steel and make it lighter. This means you could either use thinner material to get the same strength but much lower weight, OR same thickness with greater strength and less weight. Because you need so little, the price I believe won’t change much. Maybe at first but it is literally so easy to produce that competition will drive the price down very quick. Basically lightening up the entire structure of the car will allow for better weight placement within the car itself, increasing the ability to start and stop turning. Even things like springs, when you reduce the weight of spring steel, you decrease inertia and improve responsiveness within the spring itself. Graphene sponge was just used in the new Samsung battery, which charges much faster and holds a charge much longer. This will allow for better battery and charging systems, power delivery to the engine and increased speed. Graphene itself is the most conductive material known to man, also the strongest. You’ll never have damaged wires. Another thing about graphene oxide is mixed with plastic it takes a retarded amount of heat to melt it. In the event that your car catches fire, your plastic components won’t melt. Sooooo.. sure it’s one thing to run a lighter material in one spot on the car, but let’s say everything about the car becomes lighter and stronger, and more resistant to melting, tires are able to dissipate heat better and offer more grip, allowing much deeper and more siping or more aggressive grooving, or to reduce the need for it all (which won’t happen) So what if you could see a 10 to 15% weight reduction in the chassis, or more. You still have to run at weight, but now your weight placement is better. The entire car works better. Because of how easy it is to make graphene, the cost of graphene won’t stay high for very long, maybe another year, I would doubt it if it stayed high that long. Because of how cheap it is, and how little you need to improve the quality of current materials, I can without a doubt 100% certain say, graphene is going to define the age we live in. You’ll find it in everything. I’m sure you could even use it in brake pads and rotors to help heat dissipation and improve life and increase brake force.. I know it sounds like this crazy thing that’s gonna cost an arm and a leg, it’s not. Maybe at first.. but it won’t last long and it’ll be as common as salt.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

Very cool stuff ! Could you add it to plastic, or some foam type polymer and inject into a tube to make the tube stronger? Would be useful in roll cages, driver area per say. Also stiffening portions of the chassis.Additive in tires would be interesting too, i doubt anyone at Hoosier would want to do anything to add life to a tire LOL...So to use it in a polymer you need to create a latex form of graphene oxide or graphene and mix it with the ingredients you’re using during the manufacturing process. If you wanted to make the roll cage stronger I would say your best bet would be to fill the tubes with the graphene oxide latex and polymer and pressurize it under heat and keep it there until the material was formed. But I think that would be a little aggressive, give it a little bit of time and soon they’ll have worked out the kinks in combining it with steel, and you’ll be able to buy your chassis with this better ferrous steel for what I would think would be marginally more than a regular chassis. It’s coming. It hasn’t taken a complete seat in the industries yet, but universities all over the world are working so hard to implement graphene into construction. The idea right now is to make the best highest quality graphene. But I think that once they take a step back and realize how much things like graphene oxide even will help, there won’t be such a big push for PURE graphene outside of the battery and conduction type applications. The biggest problem with combining it with steel is that how steel is made, pretty much destroys graphene sheets due to heat. So they’re trying ways to figure out how to recombine it under pressure and high heat.

[Kromulous]

Cool stuff, have been working in 3-D printed metals the last couple of years or so, its amazing the stuff that has been made. Could this stuff be sintered and and printed via a similar method? basically fusing dust to produce a part, layers at a time.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

Cool stuff, have been working in 3-D printed metals the last couple of years or so, its amazing the stuff that has been made. Could this stuff be sintered and and printed via a similar method? basically fusing dust to produce a part, layers at a time.I believe there is way. I believe MIT has already successfully done this with graphene.

[Mr.Kennedy777]

From what I read graphene 3D printing is gonna be HUUUUGE

[dirty white boy]

ahhh the science of motor sports and the world! very interesting stuff!

[CCHIEF]

Jethrine was huge too. :)

[Burke1118]

@Mr.Kennedy777, haven't looked much into the graphene, at SEMA there was a "carbon fiber" 3d printer. Was pretty cool and not that expensive. It interwove a carbon fiber strand and onyx plastic. Stuff is very cool, but with the minimum weight rule, and the banning of exotic materials, I feel like there are a lot more low hanging fruit that we just haven't found yet

[Mr.Kennedy777]

@Mr.Kennedy777, haven't looked much into the graphene, at SEMA there was a "carbon fiber" 3d printer. Was pretty cool and not that expensive. It interwove a carbon fiber strand and onyx plastic. Stuff is very cool, but with the minimum weight rule, and the banning of exotic materials, I feel like there are a lot more low hanging fruit that we just haven't found yetHydraulic spring perched are here, I know they are going to become more popular, we have second and third level suspensions, I think what you’ll find soon will be a softer overload style suspension meant to cushion the tire when loads spike and reach a certain threshold, by engaging another spring or bumps once a certain limit is reached, as was mentioned earlier, harmonics in the chassis, the structure of it, springs/shocks/wheels/motor etc, I think as more compliance is designed into the chassis by checking and making adjustments in the areas of camber stiffness, caster stiffness, toe stiffness, jacking forces and tire center of pressure migration and hysteresis in the chassis (including springs and shocks) the cars will experience another transformation, you will see some areas of the car and certain components bulk up while other areas will shed weight, I think smaller displacement higher RPM engines will become more normal due to their increased efficiency to make power in terms of weight, tire construction as has been brought up, different tire preparation techniques will come out too with much more attention to tire spring rates with the tire being considered a spring, there will definitely be some more advances there as well as it’s overall design.. I think a lot of weight will be shed in a lot of areas and that will make room for better weight placement within the car itself making it capable of starting to turn and stopping turning sooner than they already do. And to be honest I wouldn’t be surprised to see something with leafs pop up in the near future.

[Burke1118]

The bigger you bore the engine, the lighter it becomes ;) I think with the rules in place it will be hard to realize some of the efficiencies you are talking about. And the second the rule makers catch wind of what people are trying to do, it will get outlawed in the name of “cost saving”. At which point the smart people will leave the sport and go elsewhere, allowing dirt racing to remain relatively stagnant. Lol

[Mr.Kennedy777]

I don’t think we are talking like 1.6L v8 turbo F1 style engines... I think what I mean is, instead of 450 cubic inch engines with a ton of power, you’ll see 300-350 cubic inch pushing 9500-11000 become common place.

[fastford]

How much do you think a 350 cid engine , capable of sustaining 11,000 rpm,s would cost?? I would think it would be a lot more than that 450 cid cost now , but , maybe when all this space age materials and technological comes in to play , maybe so , problem for me is , i will probably be gone by then,,,

[Kromulous]

I think the piston is where some redesign could be handy, forged aluminum here i don't think is the best choice. Its heavy and basically a lot weaker than anything else in the crankcase.

[billetbirdcage]

I think the piston is where some redesign could be handy, forged aluminum here i don't think is the best choice. Its heavy and basically a lot weaker than anything else in the crankcase.

Price some beryllium pistons, while they been around for a while and banned in most sports, they are still really expensive as the material alone is about 10 times titanium

[powerslide]

Price some beryllium pistons, while they been around for a while and banned in most sports, they are still really expensive as the material alone is about 10 times titanium

Scuff a few sets of those trying to figure out piston clearance :)

[Kromulous]

I was thinking CMC, Ceramic Matrix Composite, right now it would be outlandish but in the future i think it would be seasonable. Perfect application for CMC would be a piston, and about 1/3rd the weight or so.

I bet them beryllium pistons are cool looking thou LOL.