Fans want passing, inversions

[Hoosier]

We want inversions:
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Brandon Sheppard led flag-to-flag in front of a packed house at Lavonia Speedway to claim his third World of Outlaws Craftsman Late Model Series feature win of the 2018 season.
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Mike Marlar claimed his first World of Outlaws Craftsman® Late Model Series win of the 2018 season on Friday at Cherokee Speedway in front of a full house. The Winfield Warrior led all 50-laps
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Madden and his No. 44 Barry Wright Race Cars House Car team swept the night by setting fast time, claiming his heat win, drawing the pole position and leading all 50 laps of a thrilling feature on Senoia’s “gray gumbo” 3/8-mile bullring.

[WWilliams52]

Don't really know these tracks but have you ever considered that it might be the racetrack? Shouldn't punish a guy who is performing that night by sticking him behind a freight train.

[EvelB7]

I am with you, more inversions--- Depends on whether you look at it as a sport or entertainment. The sporting side says heads up; I am sure their are a ton of people who truly like to see it this way. Myself, the cream will always rise to the top, so let's put on a show and reward those who do (passing cash). As for the racetrack, if it truly is the track being one grooved than lets change it-banking, dirt, water, fences...you wouldn't last long in the movie theater business with a projector that was broken, why do tracks think they can be successful with inferior surfaces?

[SVP]

quick note , Brandon Overton did pass for the lead over Marlar on the backstretch, but caution came out before the lap was complete to put him back in the lead and then Overton blew a right rear. But still I agree with you. Inversion , something.

[AHydro23]

I don't mind inversions. But it's worse when there is an inversion & there is still no passing. And that is on the track. It's happened a few times at our local track. The #4 qualifier starts on the pole & wins flag to flag.

[EvelB7]

One other important piece to this---the cars themselves. Dirt Late Models are aero dependent and truthfully everyone has started to get great equipment. The game becomes more about who misses the setup than who does which equals less passing.

[dmr37]

One other important piece to this---the cars themselves. Dirt Late Models are aero dependent and truthfully everyone has started to get great equipment. The game becomes more about who misses the setup than who does which equals less passing.

So the race is won in the pits and with the checkbook. Maybe they should charge fans admission to the pits to watch them set their cars up.

[Illtsate32]

Nascar 2.0 get em up off the ground...cut down the spoiler and the fins on it about 3-4 inches that thing is absolutely massive...

[Illtsate32]

The body from the rear clip back they got kicked out to the right almost at a 22° angle so the spoiler gets air to it..all these things are contributing to bad racing...and have I mentioned before how ugly and disproportionate the cars are getting...

[Kromulous]

Yes, its pretty simple to fix, not sure why they don't want too.

Cut the spoilers down, spec the RF. Spec the bodies in general, and make them more square. easy, easy stuff to do.

Another thing, not 1 race car driver in history, ever, likes inversions, redraws, any of that crap. There goal is to TQ, sit pole, and win, anything else your inviting chance into the mix. now that's just speaking to the Drivers point of view. I understand sacrifices have to be made for the sake of a good show, but criticizing a Driver for winning from the pole is unfair and off base. In my mind he did a perfect job.

[Josh Bayko]

The WoO has a redraw for starting positions. It's not like the entire program is straight up. The top cars are so close together in terms of speed that passing is a very tall order.

[brsteg]

The WoO has a redraw for starting positions. It's not like the entire program is straight up. The top cars are so close together in terms of speed that passing is a very tall order.

Basically this; WoO redraws. If the track isn't conducive to passing the top several guys are close in speed and you won't see it. Tracks down south don't seem to be very racy generally speaking.

[B_K]

When there's maybe .1-.2 difference between the top 6-8 cars, inversions only punish the guy who was quickest to begin with.

Fix the cars. Take away all this aero stuff and find out who can actually drive these things the best.

[brsteg]

When there's maybe .1-.2 difference between the top 6-8 cars, inversions only punish the guy who was quickest to begin with.

Fix the cars. Take away all this aero stuff and find out who can actually drive these things the best.

and prep the track...

If you invert, the invert # needs to be pretty large to get some of the not so great equipment up front for the guys with good stuff to pass.. the best through the traffic wins.

[B_K]

Brian Shirley - Fayette Co
Will Vaught - La Salle
Bobby Pierce - Macon
Bobby Pierce - Tri -City
Chris Simpson - Davenport
Jonathan Davenport -Hagerstown

All flag to flag in the last few weeks, none in the South. I'd challenge you to find five better tracks than Senoia.... anywhere.

There are several tracks that do suck in this region, but there's also several really good ones. The cars are too close and too aero dominant for inverts to really help out a show in most cases. Fix the cars.

[brsteg]

You know how stereotypes are... they aren't always true; but start with a kernel of truth. Many Southern tracks prep tracks very hard, and just keep watering the top without working it.

Some tracks up north do that also... and that is not conducive to good racing. Tracks end up slick with no cushion or bite anywhere in the track unless there is some type of rework mid-event. Those kinds of tracks I've seen way more parades on than good racing.

[Hoosier_Dirt]

Stop qualifying. Draw for positions and make race in the heats.

[tb1545]

With everyone having better and better equipment the difference between 1st and last in the feature doesnt seem as much as say 10-15 years ago. Lap traffic usually leads to the better racing for the lead, and faster back markers, cars stopping to change tires and the phantom debris cautions seems to put a damper on a lot of the lap traffic lately especially in shorter races.
Also doesn't it seem like more drivers are worried about points now vs wins as compared to 15 years ago? Instead of throwing the kitchen sink at the car and going for the win, they make a minor adjustment and settle for a top 10 for a "solid points night"

[brsteg]

With everyone having better and better equipment the difference between 1st and last in the feature doesnt seem as much as say 10-15 years ago. Lap traffic usually leads to the better racing for the lead, and faster back markers, cars stopping to change tires and the phantom debris cautions seems to put a damper on a lot of the lap traffic lately especially in shorter races.
Also doesn't it seem like more drivers are worried about points now vs wins as compared to 15 years ago? Instead of throwing the kitchen sink at the car and going for the win, they make a minor adjustment and settle for a top 10 for a "solid points night"

You hit on something. The cars that will stop on track just so they can change tires, and 50% or more of the time pull back in after the change doesn't help or they see they can't drive back up through anyone, ruins a lot of races. Either flow or racing in lapped traffic.

There needs to be a penalty for this; but it's always a series regular so the series just doesn't go there.

[WVRACEFAN]

The now defunct UFO series never had qualifying & they inverted top 12 in the feature, it was the best late model races I've ever seen, look up the you tube videos or dirt on dirt archives , great racing, do you agree Josh Bayko?

[Josh Bayko]

The now defunct UFO series never had qualifying & they inverted top 12 in the feature, it was the best late model races I've ever seen, look up the you tube videos or dirt on dirt archives , great racing, do you agree Josh Baylor?

I do. The UFO races were usually excellent. It helped that most of the races were held at tracks that have/had reputations for being really racy. Occasionally there was carnage due to the format (Davey J and Jeep taking all the other cars and each other out in a heat at Challenger comes to mind), but it wasn’t rampant.

But racers themselves aren’t fans of the format. Not even the low budget guys that it’s supposed to benefit. Racers prefer having control of their own destiny.

The happiest medium is group qualifying where you only time vs. the guys in your heat and a random invert chosen after qualifying.

[Pennsboro23]

UFO shows at Tyler County were great.

[Clayton_Wetter]

The Cherokee race was inverted... Didn't fix whats wrong.

There ya go!!!!

[Clayton_Wetter]

You know how stereotypes are... they aren't always true; but start with a kernel of truth. Many Southern tracks prep tracks very hard, and just keep watering the top without working it.

Some tracks up north do that also... and that is not conducive to good racing. Tracks end up slick with no cushion or bite anywhere in the track unless there is some type of rework mid-event. Those kinds of tracks I've seen way more parades on than good racing.

The less bite the cars have the worse the racing is, fact!!

[B_K]

The now defunct UFO series never had qualifying & they inverted top 12 in the feature, it was the best late model races I've ever seen, look up the you tube videos or dirt on dirt archives , great racing, do you agree Josh Bayko?

Most telling part of that entire thing is now defunct.

[Josh Bayko]

Most telling part of that entire thing is now defunct.

There are a few different reasons why it went away. Much of it had nothing to do with the racers or races. And right at the very end, it was going to go to qualifying to set the lineups.

[BTExpress]

I have noticed since I have become a DLM fan over the last few years that the majority of late Model fans see nothing wrong with formats that let the fastest cars start straight up in the heats and the features. Coming from a Big Block Modified and Sprint Car background I find that kind of mentality absurd. Give me some sort of invert and I can guarantee the cream will rise to the top, most of the time, and you will see a better race. I am glad this topic came up because I have been scanning the results from around the country on Dirt on Dirt for the past several weeks and I came to the same conclusion: "Boy a lot of races have been won from the pole recently"

[callmez]

Seems like the last few big races I've been to the driver on the outside has had the preferred lane, which tends to give the fastest qualifier and the heat winners a one-position disadvantage. Seems to me that if you want to give the fast qualifier the advantage, he should get lane choice at the front of the field.

That said, I prefer the invert like WOO does it.

[callmez]

The last few big races I've been to the driver on the outside has had the preferred lane, which tends to give the fastest qualifier and the heat winners a one-position disadvantage. Seems to me that if you want to give the fast qualifier the advantage, he should get lane choice at the front of the field.

That said, I prefer the invert like WOO does it.

[brsteg]

I have noticed since I have become a DLM fan over the last few years that the majority of late Model fans see nothing wrong with formats that let the fastest cars start straight up in the heats and the features. Coming from a Big Block Modified and Sprint Car background I find that kind of mentality absurd. Give me some sort of invert and I can guarantee the cream will rise to the top, most of the time, and you will see a better race. I am glad this topic came up because I have been scanning the results from around the country on Dirt on Dirt for the past several weeks and I came to the same conclusion: "Boy a lot of races have been won from the pole recently"

Sprint car racing in general has a lot more inverts and things and a lot less b!tching about it. You are also right, I've found that the majority of late model fans seem to think that everything should be heads up because "he earned it".

What's kind of funny is that the WoO Sprints may have the best racing going right now and they run heats heads up now, and everyone loves to bash winged sprints as parade cars.

But if you take a hard look at late model racing, the winged sprint and late model heat races all look the same.. fast and spread out without much passing (aero and no traffic). But when it comes feature time and you catch the back of the field.. I think the winged sprints are now more race-able than late models.

I think it's because the sprints are less reliant on track conditions. I've seen some WoO Sprint races that took rubber and in theory locked down but still you could move around and try to pass. Heck I saw Donny pass someone on the outside and outside of the rubber last year like they were tied to a tree for the lead and win.

Just chew on that leather for a bit.

[Josh Bayko]

Sprint car racing in general has a lot more inverts and things and a lot less b!tching about it. You are also right, I've found that the majority of late model fans seem to think that everything should be heads up because "he earned it".

What's kind of funny is that the WoO Sprints may have the best racing going right now and they run heats heads up now, and everyone loves to bash winged sprints as parade cars.

But if you take a hard look at late model racing, the winged sprint and late model heat races all look the same.. fast and spread out without much passing (aero and no traffic). But when it comes feature time and you catch the back of the field.. I think the winged sprints are now more race-able than late models.

I think it's because the sprints are less reliant on track conditions. I've seen some WoO Sprint races that took rubber and in theory locked down but still you could move around and try to pass. Heck I saw Donny pass someone on the outside and outside of the rubber last year like they were tied to a tree for the lead and win.

Just chew on that leather for a bit.

You want to hear sprint car guys bitch?

Go into central PA and ask them about handicapping.

[grt74]

with todays setups its only going to get worse, there is so much traction today that the car has to go where the most traction is (chasing the track) thats why the leader comes up to lap the back of the field and they have trouble doing so

[Illtsate32]

I have noticed since I have become a DLM fan over the last few years that the majority of late Model fans see nothing wrong with formats that let the fastest cars start straight up in the heats and the features. Coming from a Big Block Modified and Sprint Car background I find that kind of mentality absurd. Give me some sort of invert and I can guarantee the cream will rise to the top, most of the time, and you will see a better race. I am glad this topic came up because I have been scanning the results from around the country on Dirt on Dirt for the past several weeks and I came to the same conclusion: "Boy a lot of races have been won from the pole recently"

They used to do a total invert from qualifying so fast time started in the back of thea heat. They would pay fast time though and paid for the handicap (6 fastest). Racing was good and stands were packed drivers manned up and took it as a challenge back then...



The last few big races I've been to the driver on the outside has had the preferred lane, which tends to give the fastest qualifier and the heat winners a one-position disadvantage. Seems to me that if you want to give the fast qualifier the advantage, he should get lane choice at the front of the field.

That said, I prefer the invert like WOO does it.

It was like that at highland speedway for a while when they had the dirt up to the dividers on topa of the wall, guys would slam on the brakes coming to the checkered in the dash to try to get second cause the top was so dominant....

[TBSprintFan]

Sprint car racing in general has a lot more inverts and things and a lot less b!tching about it. You are also right, I've found that the majority of late model fans seem to think that everything should be heads up because "he earned it".

What's kind of funny is that the WoO Sprints may have the best racing going right now and they run heats heads up now, and everyone loves to bash winged sprints as parade cars.

But if you take a hard look at late model racing, the winged sprint and late model heat races all look the same.. fast and spread out without much passing (aero and no traffic). But when it comes feature time and you catch the back of the field.. I think the winged sprints are now more race-able than late models.

I think it's because the sprints are less reliant on track conditions. I've seen some WoO Sprint races that took rubber and in theory locked down but still you could move around and try to pass. Heck I saw Donny pass someone on the outside and outside of the rubber last year like they were tied to a tree for the lead and win.

Just chew on that leather for a bit.

Excellent post, I am a fan of both and when the wife and I travel to races she will mostly want to watch sprints because of more passing in the features by the sprints. We find that there are more train races in late models. The best thing that we both would like to see is to get away from time trials and go with a draw system for the heats and then use passing points in the heats to line up the a and b features. Also we needs more rule changes to the bodies of the late models to make them less aero dependent and harder tires in both late models and sprints (sprints need smaller wings) to take away the need for all the expensive horsepower.

[No_Weak_Links]

There ya go!!!!The Cherokee race was not inverted. The WOO does the same format everywhere. Marlar had the 2nd best car. Overton passed 4-5 cars to take the lead before cutting down tire. Madden and clanton swapped 2nd many times before the end. Sheppard passed a ton of cars. When the checkers flew Marlar had a straightaway on 2nd. You and cage have no idea what your talking about so there ya go!!!!

[Clayton_Wetter]

The Cherokee race was not inverted. The WOO does the same format everywhere. Marlar had the 2nd best car. Overton passed 4-5 cars to take the lead before cutting down tire. Madden and clanton swapped 2nd many times before the end. Sheppard passed a ton of cars. When the checkers flew Marlar had a straightaway on 2nd. You and cage have no idea what your talking about so there ya go!!!!

Cage, did you mislead me???? hahahahaa

[EvelB7]

Someone said that not 1 driver has ever wanted inverts.... I have ran for 30 yrs and will tell you I wanted inverts (and not because I am a so-so qualifier). It is called racing (not qualifying), and the driver side loves the competition. The only reason a driver does not like inverts is if he is there for the money (and I do not blame them)!

[brsteg]

It is called racing (not qualifying)

The variation of this that I like is: "That's why it's called racing, not winning."

[johnE]

Set the front of the Main with a Dash for the top 5 qualifiers, inverted to run this Dash.

Pay a fast qualifier bonus, pay to win the dash, and pay the fast qualifier an escalating amount for each car he passes in the Dash.

Then do the same for Qualifiers 6-10.

[a25rjr]

Sooooooo.....the guys that work their butt off, during the week, to build a better mousetrap, some of you want to penalize them?

As a fan and crew member, I want to see my guy be the fast qualifier, win his heat race, and hopefully, lap the field if the feature.

But, I don't mind the WOO format, that's enough of an invert for me!

[Hoosier]

Dash for the top 5 qualifiers, inverted

This sounds good, but it's unusual that there's any action or passing after the first turn. The drivers want to preserve their equipment.

[Krooser]

Stop qualifying. Draw for positions and make race in the heats.

No... keep qualifying and put the fast guys in the back. But PAY them for their qualifying times with cash and enough points to keep the crying down.

We ran this way for years at our home tracks and it made for great racing.

Even if you had to race into the main thru the heats NEVER put the heat winners out fast timers up front... but,again, get out the checkbook and points.

I've been to enough southern tracks to know we used to race on gumbo... Phenix City's clay would suck your shoes off of your feet AFTER the show was over. Plenty of passing, too.

[Krooser]

You want to hear sprint car guys bitch?

Go into central PA and ask them about handicapping.

Want to see a driver bitch? Watch his lips move....

[Josh Bayko]

Want to see a driver bitch? Watch his lips move....

Depends largely on if they’re winning.

[dualdj1]

Unfortunately in this day and age, EVERYTHING out there is entertainment, including racing. Look at the decline of NASCAR. Yes, Dirt Racing has picked up the slack, partially because it fits well into most peoples budgets, but if the quality of the product on the track is not good, then dirt racing will decline as well.

The challenge, is how to provide good racing, that is fair and competitive, and make both drivers and fans happy.

There are 2 different types of drivers, those that want to win at all costs, and those that want the challenge of racing and competition. I personally love winning, but I prefer the challenge. I like lineups that make me work, because I enjoy the win much more when I have proven my worth. Not everyone is like that. But, if you combine some suggestions here, and pay for fast times, pay for passing/heat wins, you can come out on top $ wise even if you don't win the race.

I think there's a lot of room for experimentation to both put on a good show for the fans and make the drivers happy, the real problem is getting the tracks/promoters to just be willing to give it a try. Too many are worried about ticking people off, so often times is just status quo

[dirty bert]

No... keep qualifying and put the fast guys in the back. But PAY them for their qualifying times with cash and enough points to keep the crying down.We ran this way for years at our home tracks and it made for great racing.Even if you had to race into the main thru the heats NEVER put the heat winners out fast timers up front... but,again, get out the checkbook and points.I've been to enough southern tracks to know we used to race on gumbo... Phenix City's clay would suck your shoes off of your feet AFTER the show was over. Plenty of passing, too.All the tracks down south used to be that way, but to me the promoters don't work the tracks like they used to.Just my opinion you know that's like butt holes , everybody got one