'03 Mastersbilt build suggestions.

[Krooser]

Last week I picked up a bare '03 square tube MB Smackdown. Got the interior tin and a partial body.

This will be a future project but I'd like to know what front end and rear 4 bar brackets you would use...S7? GenX?

I'll raise the x member and right rail.

Thanks.

[billetbirdcage]

Last week I picked up a bare '03 square tube MB Smackdown. Got the interior tin and a partial body.

This will be a future project but I'd like to know what front end and rear 4 bar brackets you would use...S7? GenX?

I'll raise the x member and right rail.

Thanks.

Remove dash cover, throw the rest away and install new frame and body and reinstall dash cover.......

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/193/375/5f7.jpeg


Some one was gonna say it......might as well be me that gives you crap.

[Krooser]

Is that you Blackie?

[Krooser]

Looking at the interior tin it will take me three years just to figure out what goes where!!!

What can a guy expect for $200.00...

[Krooser]

I made a deal with the PO to buy all the front suspension, hubs, spindles, steering rack and shaft and some other bolt ons... we'll go from there I guess.

I did some measuring comparing this car to my '95 wide combo... the front x member is two inches higher at 9 1/4" (top of frame rail to the bottom of the rack plate) compared to my older car at 11 1/4" Big difference. I'll have to modify the right side rail to keep it out of the dirt.

BBC... do you still have a pic of a modified square tube MB frame rail? You posted one several years ago on The Dirt Forum...

BTW... since my old car has quite a bit of local history my buddies have convinced me to get it back together and show it at area car shows and drag it to the track for HoF nights... stuff like that. Going to put it back to it's original 1995 colors and sponsors. When new the car was driven by MJ McBride at Shawano and some WISSOTA stuff. MJ ran at Shawano for 40 years and never missed a Saturday night race... pretty amazing...

[billetbirdcage]

I made a deal with the PO to buy all the front suspension, hubs, spindles, steering rack and shaft and some other bolt ons... we'll go from there I guess.

I did some measuring comparing this car to my '95 wide combo... the front x member is two inches higher at 9 1/4" (top of frame rail to the bottom of the rack plate) compared to my older car at 11 1/4" Big difference. I'll have to modify the right side rail to keep it out of the dirt.

BBC... do you still have a pic of a modified square tube MB frame rail? You posted one several years ago on The Dirt Forum...

BTW... since my old car has quite a bit of local history my buddies have convinced me to get it back together and show it at area car shows and drag it to the track for HoF nights... stuff like that. Going to put it back to it's original 1995 colors and sponsors. When new the car was driven by MJ McBride at Shawano and some WISSOTA stuff. MJ ran at Shawano for 40 years and never missed a Saturday night race... pretty amazing...

Think this might be what you where talking about: RR rail for tire clearance

https://i.imgur.com/hvLSWEK.png

This is a top view, IE from above car

Right frame rail behind RF tire is:



https://i.imgur.com/NOrUOTN.png

[Krooser]

Yep...already did the rear rail on my '95 a few years ago. Thanks for posting this BBC...I'm a visual kinda guy (too dumb to just guess)!

One more thing... MB talks about setting the rear in the car using 90/10 plates. Are those just a sheet metal or aluminum plate bolted to the hub via the whel studs to have a solid place to measure from?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yep...already did the rear rail on my '95 a few years ago. Thanks for posting this BBC...I'm a visual kinda guy (too dumb to just guess)!

One more thing... MB talks about setting the rear in the car using 90/10 plates. Are those just a sheet metal or aluminum plate bolted to the hub via the whel studs to have a solid place to measure from?

Sheets bolted to the rear end bell for a shock mount.

[Krooser]

Found a 3' chunk of 2x2 .083 left over from the '95 chassis fix... in stock no waiting.

This chassis came from Pat Doar's shop and i was told he ran it in WoO comp when new... time for the legend to continue...hahaha!

[Krooser]

Sheets bolted to the rear end bell for a shock mount.

Ok... didnt think of that. Thanks as usual.

[Krooser]

[QUOTE=Krooser;2199415]Found a 3' chunk of 2x2 .083 left over from the '95 chassis fix... in stock no waiting.

This chassis came from Pat Doar's shop and i was told he ran it in WoO comp when new... time for the legend to continue...hahaha![/QUOTE

Pic wont post

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Does that 03 have the spear rod mount on the RR? I could send you a spear rod. Would be funny if Krooser got dq on week 1.

[billetbirdcage]

Pic wont post

upload to imgur.com

[Krooser]

Does that 03 have the spear rod mount on the RR? I could send you a spear rod. Would be funny if Krooser got dq on week 1.

Funny you say that... i just bought a spear rod from a guy in WV for $5.00 plus shipping... i think it is legal up here...

Maybe use that and your straight track bar bolted to thr right side in place of the j bar.... i love to experiment.

[Jim11h]

Since on MB topic, what's up with them? Their site is down but casebolt is running one with one of the brothers help. They going out, scaling down, change website, etc? We've got a couple and some questions but can't call them without a number or info on site

[Krooser]

812-793-3666.

They certainly don't put much value in an online presence...barely answer the phone.

[Jim11h]

Appreciate it kroozer. He must have correct number cause said they haven't returned call and it's a 15 chassis

[Krooser]

Appreciate it kroozer. He must have correct number cause said they haven't returned call and it's a 15 chassis

Really a shame they dont care about customer service.

[Matt49]

It isn't a matter of not caring. I was just there last week. Tader is now sole owner. He is in FULL rebuild mode.
They don't have the staff right now to have somebody sitting by the phone but that will likely change soon.
Keep calm. MasterSbilt ain't dead yet.

[Kromulous]

Thats good, seems like there new Chasiss is pretty fast.

Hopefully he can rebuild and get back to selling a lot of chassis.

[Krooser]

Thats good, seems like there new Chasiss is pretty fast.

Hopefully he can rebuild and get back to selling a lot of chassis.

Amen to that....

[fastford]

It isn't a matter of not caring. I was just there last week. Tader is now sole owner. He is in FULL rebuild mode.
They don't have the staff right now to have somebody sitting by the phone but that will likely change soon.
Keep calm. MasterSbilt ain't dead yet.

I an,t either , just trying to catch up........

[Krooser]

What rod ends are you guys using on the suspension? I used carbon steel zinc plated units from QSC on the '95 wide combo but some guys use chrome moly... my local chassis builder told me carbon steel is fine.

Also do you use a solid rod end on the inner lca? And the PO of this smackdown used two piece lowers... said the one piece he got from Jimmy Mars would bind up. Comments?

[billetbirdcage]

What rod ends are you guys using on the suspension? I used carbon steel zinc plated units from QSC on the '95 wide combo but some guys use chrome moly... my local chassis builder told me carbon steel is fine.

Also do you use a solid rod end on the inner lca? And the PO of this smackdown used two piece lowers... said the one piece he got from Jimmy Mars would bind up. Comments?

For what you doing, the cheap ones are probably as good as the rest of the car. They just get loose fast and need replaced quicker, but not sure how much your going to race. I'll generally recommend a mid line rodend to most guys if they race semi regularly and on a budget. For a mid line rod end, probably the best for the money is the QA1 black moly rod ends. There are better one's out there for sure, but for the price they are hard to beat. Using better ones on the tie rod ends is usually a good idea as they are the ones the will go the fastest, but I guess that depends on how long you use them before you wreck and bend one, lol.

As for the lower (again not a master guy at all and don't know the typical parts on them or styles) but if your talking the lower arm to the frame? Then yes a rod end not a solid, the only place a solid is used is if it has one on the strut rod to control arm instead of a hockey stick type mount.

[Matt49]

I'm a big fan of the FK economy high strength rod ends with the teflon liners. 5/8 stuff would be pert numbers CMX10T for right hand thread and CMXL10T for left hand They are relatively maintenance free because of the teflon liners. My only complain is that the bodies tend to oxidize over time and don't look all that great.
You definitely want a bearing rod end on the inner mount of the lower even if it is a two-piece lower. On the strut rod part of the two-piece deal, you can run a solid rod end where it mounts to the lower and obviously a bearing rod end on the chassis side.

[7uptruckracer]

Just to add to this I use mis- alignment spacers when I can to allow more travel before it might seize on the housing. Also in places where you have a bolt up against the heim on one side I will take a bench or hand grinder and put a nice rounded beveled edge on the bolt to accomplish the same thing. Some places are like Tie rod ends. Some cars that have welded bungs that shocks go through. Some styles of strut rods. Ideal is a bushing that allows free movement on both sides but you don't always have that.


I'm a big fan of the FK economy high strength rod ends with the teflon liners. 5/8 stuff would be pert numbers CMX10T for right hand thread and CMXL10T for left hand They are relatively maintenance free because of the teflon liners. My only complain is that the bodies tend to oxidize over time and don't look all that great.
You definitely want a bearing rod end on the inner mount of the lower even if it is a two-piece lower. On the strut rod part of the two-piece deal, you can run a solid rod end where it mounts to the lower and obviously a bearing rod end on the chassis side.

[Matt49]

Good point 7up. We do the same thing on our single-shear bolts. I call it "crowning" the bolt. After I think I'm done with one on the grinder, I throw a rod end on the bolt and lay it all the way against the shoulder and just spin it around to make sure I can't feel any rough spots.

[7uptruckracer]

Yup that’s where I use it too my asphalt mod has some shock mounts and sway bar hookups Where are you don’t have the clearance for a bushing on the other side so we just crown the bolt



Good point 7up. We do the same thing on our single-shear bolts. I call it "crowning" the bolt. After I think I'm done with one on the grinder, I throw a rod end on the bolt and lay it all the way against the shoulder and just spin it around to make sure I can't feel any rough spots.

[Matt49]

One other note on heims that may seem obvious to most but may save someone reading this from having a bad night. Do NOT use a three-piece heim on any of your front suspension. By three-piece, I'm referring to the ones that have a main body and then another sleeve piece that holds the ball in the body which is then pressed into the main body. Ones like these, if my description is bad:
https://www.fkrodends.com/products/rod-ends/precision-series/hjmx-t-hrxmx-t/
They are not at all designed to take an axial load...which again, may seem obvious to some but I bolted one up to the left lower (front heim) and learned this the hard way. Two laps into hot laps, I had a bent spindle, bent shock, two bent ball joints, bent tie road, and it took two guys to get the front half of my lower control arm out of the race track. Don't do that...

[Krooser]

I bought some two piece steel rod ends from a guy on FB when I redid all the heims on my '95... used a moly end on the steering. The inner LCA has a rod end, too not a fixed end but some guys tell me I should have it the other way around... don't really agree with that.

Now a couple more questions... I'd like input on the lowers... one or two piece. And for the Mastesbilt experts... Smackdown or S7 spindles. I now have both in stock.

The steering servo on my old car os a 3.4... I assume a 4.0 would be preferable?

Thanks guys....

PS... going to pick up my engine parts Monday (resized/rebuilt rods, four new pistons and couple more pieces. Sold a bunch of needed hot rod parts and some excess shop equipment this weekend at a local swap meet... got a couple bucks to spend wisely right now.

[Krooser]

Another question... on a Smackdown what spindles to use and would i have to modify the mounts to make another spindle work? I have Smackdown and S7 spindles right now...

812-793-0827 is Mastersbilt's new phone number... also heard Tader moved to a new shop.

As always thanks.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I would use the S7 Krooser.

[Matt49]

Ditto on the S7 spindles for that car. There is no new shop. I was at the one and only MasterSbilt shop today and Tader was there.

[Krooser]

Ditto on the S7 spindles for that car. There is no new shop. I was at the one and only MasterSbilt shop today and Tader was there.

Guess you can't believe all you read on FB...but the new phone is legit.

Got a new pair of S7 spindles for $100.00... even I can afford that. How do they different from Smackdown?

[Krooser]

Ditto on the S7 spindles for that car. There is no new shop. I was at the one and only MasterSbilt shop today and Tader was there.

Guess you can't believe all you read on FB...but the new phone is legit.

Got a new pair of S7 spindles for $100.00... even I can afford that. How do they different from Smackdown?

[Matt49]

Guess you can't believe all you read on FB...but the new phone is legit.

Got a new pair of S7 spindles for $100.00... even I can afford that. How do they different from Smackdown?

I don't believe anything I read on Facebook. :-)
The S7 has more KPI. The ride heights also go to 3-1/2" on both sides if I'm remembering correctly.
Left side control arm lengths need to be 10-1/2 and 16-5/8 (same as original smack). Right side should be 8-1/4 and 18-5/8.
The difference that we noticed (any it is echoed by many that started on the old smack stuff and switched to S7) is that the car is far more responsive to steering input from the center off. With the old smack spindles you kind of had to nail entry just right or you would have your hands full getting exit straight often having to use the pedals. The S7 stuff, not so much. It steers better getting off the corner. Not as good as a complete Gen-X front end but as good as the smack can get I think.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't believe anything I read on Facebook. :-)
The S7 has more KPI. The ride heights also go to 3-1/2" on both sides if I'm remembering correctly.
Left side control arm lengths need to be 10-1/2 and 16-5/8 (same as original smack). Right side should be 8-1/4 and 18-5/8.
The difference that we noticed (any it is echoed by many that started on the old smack stuff and switched to S7) is that the car is far more responsive to steering input from the center off. With the old smack spindles you kind of had to nail entry just right or you would have your hands full getting exit straight often having to use the pedals. The S7 stuff, not so much. It steers better getting off the corner. Not as good as a complete Gen-X front end but as good as the smack can get I think.

We ran a 20" lower on the s7 setup, spaced the upper out to compensate, and moved the upper pickup points down 1". This was the 33B car Whitney drove. It drove pretty dang good on most conditions. The only hole was momentum tracks when they were dirty. I think maybe it was a caster gain issue.

[Krooser]

Sounds good to me ...

[Krooser]

What about steering racks? I havent heard from the PO about the parts he has to sell so now im looking at a Woodward rack another forum member has for sale... 4.0 ratio i believe. I havent used a Woodward since the 80's... they look nice but the parts are pricey but arent they all....

[fastford]

You can use about any rack if its the correct width , but sure would be nice to find one with slotted ends when working with bump steer ,

[billetbirdcage]

What about steering racks? I havent heard from the PO about the parts he has to sell so now im looking at a Woodward rack another forum member has for sale... 4.0 ratio i believe. I havent used a Woodward since the 80's... they look nice but the parts are pricey but arent they all....

This is very general (if you can't get info on what is supposed to be on car)

The rack will typically be 1/2 to 3/4" longer (between tie rods) then the distance between the lower control arm mounting holes. Example if the lower holes are 18" apart, then a 18.25 to 18.75" length rack is generally used.

Rack ratio: sort of a personal preference, but typically the shorter the steering arms are you probably want a slower rack and vice versa. Ratio's have gotten a lot faster over the years and 4.0ish or faster is more the normal, but if you have long steering arms (around 5" verses 4.5") you might go up a little to a 4.4 to get similar speed as the short arm spindles.

For sure try to get a rack with the vertical slots, Just be aware there are different ends, some are more around the top of the shaft, some more at middle and some that are more below the shaft. Which one you need can vary depending on car. Now granted a lot of older cars don't need the slots because the tie rods are meant to be above the shaft so the old non clevis racks work fine for the most part.

[Krooser]

The rack I'm looking at is a 3.66... I think I can retrofit the slotted ends. Definitely a plus for adjusting bump steer. Not sure on the servo spec. I'd really like a faster rack ratio... the one on my '95 is 3.3 something. I could replace the pinion on the Woodward if it's new enough... they don't service anything older than 10 years or so. Different model. I like bigger steering wheels if I can get my fat gut out of the way.

[thanhhang1996zi]

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[Krooser]

Too Can Chew to you too.

[fastford]

I guess the mods dont even look at the tech section any more......

[Krooser]

Yep...you are correct. I sent ModJr1 a message a few days ago.

[Krooser]

I see Wehrs makes an adapter to put slotted ends on a standard rack....anybody use them?

http://www.wehrsmachine.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=263

[billetbirdcage]

I see Wehrs makes an adapter to put slotted ends on a standard rack....anybody use them?

http://www.wehrsmachine.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=263

It's gonna make your rack length a lot longer.

[Krooser]

It's gonna make your rack length a lot longer.

Use just one and shorten the tie rod? Shorten the rack and drill/tap a new hole?

[Matt49]

Use just one and shorten the tie rod? Shorten the rack and drill/tap a new hole?

Changing the tie rod length could mess up your bump steer more than this part fixes it.

[Krooser]

Changing the tie rod length could mess up your bump steer more than this part fixes it.

Yeah you're correct.

Back in the early 80's I was rebuilding my '69 Galaxie late model into a Torino. the car was an old USAC car from '61... I installed a '65 front stub, used Impala spindles turned around to fit the Ford rear steering box.

I spent dozens of days on a graph chart and under that car figuring out how to get zero bump steer. When I got it right I fab'd a custom center line using .060 1" DOM and weld on shock lumps.

The car debuted at Chilton, WI's little 1/5 mile banked dirt oval (which I would promote at 7 years later). Anyway I ran a ten lap heat race pushing like a dump truck... when I pulled into the pits, and hit the trailer ramps, the center link fell off!

So much for zero bump steer AND light weight steering parts!