Average $$$ per Driver running WOO

[TUTY]

34 Total races so far for WOO LM series
Madden $185,350 / $5451 per race
Marlar $164,750 / $4845 per race
B-Shep $250,155 / $7357 per race
Moran $132,100 / $3885 per race
Clanton $93,625 / $2753 per race
Eckert $79,440 / $2336 per race
Jurghans 74,220 / $2182 per race
Erb $68570 / $2016 per race
Breazele $58,070 / $1707 per race
Larson $52,890 / $1555 per race
There are some prelim nights that there is no pay.

[TMaCiLLiNi39]

34 Total races so far for WOO LM series
Madden $185,350 / $5451 per race
Marlar $164,750 / $4845 per race
B-Shep $250,155 / $7357 per race
Moran $132,100 / $3885 per race
Clanton $93,625 / $2753 per race
Eckert $79,440 / $2336 per race
Jurghans 74,220 / $2182 per race
Erb $68570 / $2016 per race
Breazele $58,070 / $1707 per race
Larson $52,890 / $1555 per race
There are some prelim nights that there is no pay.

Now show me what they have spent...

[wfofan]

Love to see that stat

[JMill99m]

Don't quote me but I've heard local late model guys say $1000 a night is there
Cost for a weekly regular show.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Cost of winning the championship?

Priceless

[Zonks32x]

Well...
Two cars at $35k each. (70k)
At least two bullets at $30k (60k)
$700-1000/night in tires
$7 gallon for race fuel
$10 per lap on avg (engine re-fresh)
Shock re-builds
Entry fees & pit passes
Hotels and food on the road
Paying crew members
Toterhome/Trailer maintenance
Toterhome/Trailer payments
Diesel cost to haul all that garage jewelry around the country.

On the low shoe-string budget end...$350-400k to run a national tour.
Most of these teams spend $500-600k+.

Sprintcar guys spend even more...but they do run more nights/year.

Half-million + per season helps explain why you see the turnover you do on the national series.

To that end...one of the top WoO drivers this year will not be back next year.

[TUTY]

I remember Steve Kinser in 1984 said at that time it cost $180,000 to $220,000 for the whole WOO series. I agree $500,000 plus for National LM series and probably $700,000 plus for WOO Sprint Cars. Plus yes u have the initial cost of truck and trailer.

[dalemcfan]

Do the figures in post 1 include tow money? If someone has no product sponsors or deals from chassis and engine suppliers they cant build a national touring late model for less than $90,000. A durham or cornett or clements is mid $40s, not $30. A roller lonhorn or rocket is also mid $40s. Figure in all expenses it is $25-$30 per lap depending on damage/failures. Took my financial advisor to a Lucas race. He loved it. Asked how much the cars and haulers cost and how much paid to win. I told him then he said one of the worst financial ratios he ever heard.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Do these guys really stay at hotels?

[No_Weak_Links]

Do these guys really stay at hotels?Most of them no, not usually....unless REALLY well funded

[Zonks32x]

Do these guys really stay at hotels?

Not every night, but yes, they do. Spent many a night at hotels across the Midwest where WoO sprint, WoO LM, or Lucas LM guys were also staying there.

You get a driver out on the road with his wife, kids, car owner, and crew members, they're not all jamming into the toter home.

[Zonks32x]

A durham or cornett or clements is mid $40s, not $30.

Mid $40's to buy yes....but a number of teams have lease agreements with their engine builders.

Agree with your financial advisor 100%. Helps explain why there's plenty of plumbers, septic companies, bone yards, paving companies, and car dealers on the side of LM's...but no banks, financial planners, or investment corporations.

[#FALSuperman]

And then after you have figured out all the expenses, make sure to add all the advertising money that comes to these teams from top sponsors on the car. Some are pretty significant.

[hucktyson]

Brand new top of the line engines are over 50k not 30. Fuel is 600+ a drum for 54 gallons , top builders charge 10-16k for thousand lap rebuilds. The dude pulled his numbers out of his gash

[dirtcrazy4u]

Many times. The crews are going from race to race. And Yes, they are staying in the toter many times. Drivers of today have there motor homes they are sleeping in.

As for your cost figures, you better add another 25%.

Ahhh huck, you need to come back more often, I miss your look inside the real world of racin.

[TUTY]

I think they used Hotels more 20 or 30 years ago as there Totor's were not even close to today and most didn't have the $500,000 motor home. I guess the moral to the story is it takes a lot of great sponsors to make this happen. A lot of time a large trucking company (or any company) if looking for a write off can owe these Totor's and trailer and lease them to a driver for $100. They write off there lose and that's the sponsorship to the driver. But there isn't many of those guys around anymore either.

[weatherman85]

I know a regional driver here in the SE that runs GA, AL, TN, SC, NC that has a sponsorship from a local trucking company. The sponsorship is basically a fuel/credit card that the driver can use to pay for fuel for all his travels. Trucking company can use as a write off as TUTY said and is a win/win for both. Not having to worry about fuel costs is pretty sweet deal in my opinion.

[ride height]

30k for an engine...50k for an engine...what’s it matter? The cost to run a race car on a dirt track is beyond ridiculous. We run a lowly B Mod as weekend warriors and I’m embarrassed to say how much that costs a year, and we wouldn’t be doing that without sponsors and some disposable income. You’d have to get about 5000.00 to start every night running a SLM....plus some decent sponsors to make the numbers work. If you’re watching a super late model going around a track....somebody is spending money they are never getting back. They may have money to burn....but they aren’t breaking even. No way.

[Zonks32x]

Brand new top of the line engines are over 50k not 30. Fuel is 600+ a drum for 54 gallons , top builders charge 10-16k for thousand lap rebuilds. The dude pulled his numbers out of his gash

C'mon man. Why is everyone always a gash or a slit, or a pu$$y with you?? I know it's all part of your act...but seriously!?!?

Would you like to dispute the fact the cost of dragging a DLM team across the country on a national tour is north of $500k? At the end of the day, the total bill is the only number that really matters.

I don't care what you paid for one 54 gallon drum of race fuel in your neck of the woods. Rocket1 & the other WoO teams that purchase dozens of barrels of fuel throughout a season are NOT paying the same rate as the mighty pole-beater.

I respect the fact that you bust your @$$ each day building high quality decks. Seen your work on-line. Well done!!

And, I respect the fact that you're out there racing and getting after it as time/$$ allows. And, you and I hold many of the same convictions when it comes to the political spectrum.

But what I don't get about you Huck is why you are compelled to be a complete and total D-bag 24-7-365???

You can't just "correct" someone or say, "Hey buddy those numbers are wrong and here's why..."

No, you immediately resort to being the mayor of D!ckhead City...population 1.

But it's all good. Good luck at the track if you're racing this weekend. Put that beast in victory lane.

[SDLM Rankings]

The best way for anyone in DLM racing to make money is to spread the financial risk. It is nearly impossible for one entity to burden all the cost of fielding DLM team and still make money.


Teams can spread the risk across several different business entities. That way if the racing operation does not meet its performance goals, then burden of failure is not resting solely on one person's shoulders.


Another way for teams to see a year to year profit is through debt structuring. This is a risky move, but the math works if you can outperform the break-even analysis.


This just a couple ways that could work for DLM team. I’m sure their other ways to make it work.


For fun I built a DLM team cost model. I have 56 variable inputs… that’s a lot risk. It is very hard to make a profit racing. As of today, I believe there are 6 teams with a positive cash flow in 2018. There are 10 more on the cusp of positive cash flow. Of the 16 driver’s that have a chance of making money this year 12 of them are tour drivers. So, once you throw in point fund money and tow money there are likely 12 teams with a real good chance of positive cash flow in 2018. The Dirt Million has a chance to really make a difference to the winning team.


Bottom line racing is a hobby, hobbies cost money... they don't make money. However, nearly every hobby has a top level, that does allow for a small percentage of participants to make money. Those "paid" participants are the "face" of the hobby and responsible for ensuring the hobby is looked at in a positive way and promoting the hobby’s products. I have two sports hobbies that I participate in, I ride mountain bikes and play softball. There are people that make money in my hobbies, I will never be one of those people, but as long I'm having fun I will continue to fork over a few thousand dollars per year to shred trails and mash balls. And just like many DLM racers I buy equipment that is beyond my skill level… but without the latest and greatest tools for my hobby I will not be the best hobbyist that I can possibly be. Right?

[Zonks32x]

Many times. The crews are going from race to race. And Yes, they are staying in the toter many times. Drivers of today have there motor homes they are sleeping in.

As for your cost figures, you better add another 25%.

Ahhh huck, you need to come back more often, I miss your look inside the real world of racin.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. Appreciate Huck's too...as a guy who's in the DLM grind.

So when we add 25% to a boat-ton....the answer is...a bigger boat...$600k+ per season.

Insane, when you think about it.

[TerryM]

Can we see the same numbers for the Lucas guys?

[dirty-white-boy]

Well...
Two cars at $35k each. (70k)
At least two bullets at $30k (60k)
$700-1000/night in tires
$7 gallon for race fuel
$10 per lap on avg (engine re-fresh)
Shock re-builds
Entry fees & pit passes
Hotels and food on the road
Paying crew members
Toterhome/Trailer maintenance
Toterhome/Trailer payments
Diesel cost to haul all that garage jewelry around the country.

On the low shoe-string budget end...$350-400k to run a national tour.
Most of these teams spend $500-600k+.

Sprintcar guys spend even more...but they do run more nights/year.

Half-million + per season helps explain why you see the turnover you do on the national series.

To that end...one of the top WoO drivers this year will not be back next year.

The cost is crazy for what you get in return. Nobody is MAKING money unless you are a hired racer.

[TUTY]

Lucas Oil doesn't post there winnings at least where I look? Unable to figure there series out.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Lucas posts the total winnings after each race in there write-ups. Scroll down to the bottom of this page.

http://lucasdirt.com/news/latest-news/2018-results/weiss-pockets-50-000-sunoco-north-south-100-payday

[hucktyson]

Zonks the reason the stuff is soo expensive for the rest of us is to pay for all of the free stUff the big teams get. But if your going to talk costs of racing you can’t figure in the rocket house car probably has all of their parts sponsored free in exchange for mark using the same parts on the 300 cars a year that he sells. If someone wants to know what my show room display costs do I factor in that any material manufacturer will give me anything I want to be associated with what I build ?

[kazual]

Interesting post Huck. I’ve seen it in another industry where discounts, real and perceived, are mainly benefitting the upper tier. Often called “marketing” or “partnership” agreements they generally don’t do much to help the main stream customer.

[Mams]

I remember a 2009 interview with a successful regional driver in which he said it cost $300k to run 65-70 races.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Huck is right. If you are still out there struggling to run a super LM weekly, you are sponsoring a good chunk of the DoD top 25. Then you can buy their used stuff for more than what they have in it and they buy new again.

[TUTY]

Lucas numbers with what I count as 37 races entered.
Superman $210,600 / $5691 per race
Bloomturd $187,725 / $5073 per race
Kid Rocket $134,025 / $3622 per race
EPJ $127,925 / $3457 per race
T Mac $113,475 / $3066 per race
Pierce $121,050 / $3271 per race
Owens $100,050 / $2704 per race
Real Deal $101,850 / $2752 per race
New Deal $121,325 / $3279 per race
Lanigan $68,400 / $1848 per race
Satterlee $78,375 / $2118 per race
Ziegler $60,550 / $1636 per race
Erb JR. $49,700 / $1343 per race
Bronson $72,175 / $1950 per race
LUCAS OIL SERIES

[Josh Bayko]

Lucas numbers with what I count as 37 races entered.
Superman $210,600 / $5691 per race
Bloomturd $187,725 / $5073 per race
Kid Rocket $134,025 / $3622 per race
EPJ $127,925 / $3457 per race
T Mac $113,475 / $3066 per race
Pierce $121,050 / $3271 per race
Owens $100,050 / $2704 per race
Real Deal $101,850 / $2752 per race
New Deal $121,325 / $3279 per race
Lanigan $68,400 / $1848 per race
Satterlee $78,375 / $2118 per race
Ziegler $60,550 / $1636 per race
Erb JR. $49,700 / $1343 per race
Bronson $72,175 / $1950 per race
LUCAS OIL SERIES


Crazy how Sheppard is still averaging 2k more than anybody else on both tours, despite all those high paying Lucas races.

[MI Dirt Fan]

I don't think Lucas has quite hit enough high paying shows yet to move the numbers enough in that series. The highest paying WoO event on thier schedule he ended up winning so that helps. I bet if you look in about a month or so the number will be less and by the end of the season he won't average more.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Look at the B.K racing NASCAR team. Over $44 million in debt.

[Josh Bayko]

I don't think Lucas has quite hit enough high paying shows yet to move the numbers enough in that series. The highest paying WoO event on thier schedule he ended up winning so that helps. I bet if you look in about a month or so the number will be less and by the end of the season he won't average more.

It's not so much that's he won the USA Nats that his number is that much higher, it's that he's won more races overall than anybody else on either tour. Imagine how it would be if they don't have those motors go pop early this season.

[TUTY]

One of the talked about things is that WOO travels more miles than Lucas ? Is that really true anymore as Lucas Oil has more races also?

[Josh Bayko]

One of the talked about things is that WOO travels more miles than Lucas ? Is that really true anymore as Lucas Oil has more races also?

It depends largely on where the team is located, but IIRC, somebody did the math early this season, and the Lucas schedule was more miles than the WoO schedule this year.

[Zonks32x]

Huck, that makes sense. Be interesting to see exactly how much $$$ in freebies & discounts rocket1, Bloomer, etc. receive each year.

I know it's probably impossible to answer, but what do you think the ballpark markup ends up being for the regional & local teams as a result of the free stuff the big boys receive. 10%, 20%, higher??

[racingfan99]

How does Arnie Ranta do it with Hhs B1 team, there is no one else on the car but him. Man, that guy must love super DLM racing or does he think Brent Larson has a future in the sport? General Mills nor General Motors would take on what he does alone!!

[Crossbones]

These threads are always funny with the same few posters showing up in them with BIG eyes when showing $ numbers.lol

I remember Chub Frank 7/8 years ago saying it cost $2,500 per event, 60 events = $150,000 per year.

I would guess the lower budget "national" teams budget is around $150,000 per year and the higher budget teams around $250,000. Theres no way any of these touring teams are spending $500,000+ per year. Maybe the WoO sprint car teams hit that mark but not the late models.

I wouldn't even pay much attention to some of the drivers on this stuff, people tend to have big eyes to make something sound bigger than it really is. Bloomquist in 2014 threw around the $1,000,000 number.lol

[MI Dirt Fan]

So you think a "higher" budget team isn't spending more than $250k in a season? lol

Who fits in the "lower" budget national team?

[Josh Bayko]

These threads are always funny with the same few posters showing up in them with BIG eyes when showing $ numbers.lol

I remember Chub Frank 7/8 years ago saying it cost $2,500 per event, 60 events = $150,000 per year.

I would guess the lower budget "national" teams budget is around $150,000 per year and the higher budget teams around $250,000. Theres no way any of these touring teams are spending $500,000+ per year. Maybe the WoO sprint car teams hit that mark but not the late models.

I wouldn't even pay much attention to some of the drivers on this stuff, people tend to have big eyes to make something sound bigger than it really is. Bloomquist in 2014 threw around the $1,000,000 number.lol

If Chub was saying 150k 8 years ago, they’re spending double that now. The cars themselves are double what they cost then, and all of the other costs associated with touring have also gone up exponentially.

[Illtsate32]

Make that $8706 a race for EPJ...Pierce around $4200 per race....IF Bobby could of pulled off the win at Manfield and won the Silver Dollar Nationals like he should of hed be up around $10000 a race, so the question and debate remains...if these guys make north of $250,000-$300,000 are they ending up in the black?? Another question maybe someones answered it before, does every penny go to the driver or is there a contract signed that splits up the purse money with the teams and hired drivers?

[Kwd1253]

So you think a "higher" budget team isn't spending more than $250k in a season? lol

Who fits in the "lower" budget national team?

T-MAC lol.. one car, dually, box trailer, no extra front clip lol. Surprised if he has 2 motors and going around asking all lucas regular for their used racing tires lol

[ImCryn2]

Imagine what the guys who switch chassis brands 2 or 3 times a year spend. They're usually not the ones winning alot of money either. crazy

[grt74]

you are not going to make money in racing with out help, just the truth, truth
ive talked to a top sponsor (he owned it all and footed the whole bill) for someone who is still racing and is very competitive, min 250 if luck went your way, 250-400 if they killed a couple cars or engines, but thats also paying 2 full time guys for help
lets not forget all the hours that go into a deal like this
I've heard of guys testing for 1000 laps or in a 2 day deal, hell thats a 15000 dollar test session easy

[Illtsate32]

If all this is true, how does a guy who drives for a living pay his real life bills, Mortgage, electric, car payments kids, kids schooling, lets say for instance a Babb or a Shirley, how do they do it in this day and age?

[ZERO25]

you are not going to make money in racing with out help, just the truth, truth
ive talked to a top sponsor (he owned it all and footed the whole bill) for someone who is still racing and is very competitive, min 250 if luck went your way, 250-400 if they killed a couple cars or engines, but thats also paying 2 full time guys for help
lets not forget all the hours that go into a deal like this
I've heard of guys testing for 1000 laps or in a 2 day deal, hell thats a 15000 dollar test session easy

I was told $250k just for crew, hauler, and expenses. Think about it, 2 complete cars are $200k.

[No_Weak_Links]

If all this is true, how does a guy who drives for a living pay his real life bills, Mortgage, electric, car payments kids, kids schooling, lets say for instance a Babb or a Shirley, how do they do it in this day and age?

Not saying all, but a lot of these guys come from money and their families are well off to begin with.

[MI Dirt Fan]

From a couple pics I've seen Rocket1 has at least 4 complete cars at least 2 maybe 3 were turn key ready to go sitting at the shop. And a 5th one being built.

[Josh Bayko]

From a couple pics I've seen Rocket1 has at least 4 complete cars at least 2 maybe 3 were turn key ready to go sitting at the shop. And a 5th one being built.

Rocket1 is getting their cars for basically material costs. That helps a ton.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Rocket1 is getting their cars for basically material costs. That helps a ton.

That does.....

[Josh Bayko]

That does.....

Any house car should have that advantage.