Bobby Pierce on twitter - HELP Cost Limit engine size to 415 - 420. Link.

[HoosierDirtFan]

Bobby Pierce on Twitter - An idea to cut some cost - Limit engine size to 415 - 420
Link - http://www.twitter.com/BobbyPierce32/status/1041807571928133637

[plunks7]

To Bad and no freaking way!!!!

[Highside Hustler25]

To Bad and no freaking way!!!!

Bobby P. Not Billy M:D

[ZERO25]

And give them a weight break as well. That rule worked pretty good in the Havatampa days!

[93Nelson]

Bring in the crates!

[Burke1118]

Not sure what this will accomplish. NASCAR engines are 358 cubic inches and have just as much power as our stuff.. only difference is Nascar engines are way MORE expensive

[Cardirt0]

Not sure what this will accomplish. NASCAR engines are 358 cubic inches and have just as much power as our stuff.. only difference is Nascar engines are way MORE expensive

Spend more get more.. but then you brake more. Then it cost more to fix. NASCAR 3 races they toss the block. 4 races the heads get sold.. I bet after next year they go to Speck frames and Speck Bodys

[BILL47A]

If this were to become a rule, I would guess the cubic inch displacement of the engines in all the cars would have to be checked prior to the event. I don't know the process they would use to do this and how time consuming would it be?

[Dlmfan123]

Dudes just throwing out ideas. It’s ridiculous what these guys spend and there’s really no way to stop them from spending more

[Cardirt0]

At lease Bobbys saying something. may be if all the drivers and owners stand up and sit down and speak to each other may be something can be done.

[Mod Runner]

No way do I want to see an engine cubic inch limit. They are called Super Late Models for a reason. No Neutered Late Models for me !

[TackyTracker]

think about them not running anymore?? costs have to go down or lucas & woo will split the main jewels and have a series but that will be it if something doesn't change..

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Not a bad idea. But you’d have to really look at everything and every loophole the guys would try to use. He’s on to something and you wouldn’t know the difference, fields aren’t going to grow. They are going to continue to shrink with the current situation.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't like this. A bigger crank costs the same as a smaller one. Engines get cheaper when you can't use a big one. This concept is a relic from the days where everyone had a set of 23 degree heads.

And less cubes means more rpm and more top end failures. Bobby wants lms to still "look cool" aka be glued to the ground and get cheaper. It don't work like that.

[kazual]

People will generally promote a rule where they feel they have an edge or an advantage. Be that engine, tires, etc. Happens in almost every part of life including business and sport. Not saying this is Pierce’s angle here, honestly I don’t know enough to take a side. But usually when a participant is on board with a rule modification bet your bottom dollar it isn’t something that they see hampering them individually.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

^^. Very true. That's why inmates shouldn't run the asylum. But, that has been the case for quite some time now.

[Krooser]

Go back to 2000-ish bodies, 12" spoiler and cheap shocks.

My neighbors take a look at my stuff and they honestly don't know what they are looking at... When I tell them it's a DLM I get a blank stare... Never heard of them. Get it back to where the public can ID that it's a car and we have a chance if getting new fans.

The big problem with racing isn't car specs....it's getting fans in the stands. We all look at the wrong thing...

[Josh Bayko]

A cubic inch rule wouldn't save anybody a dime and would be a nightmare to tech. He didn't think this idea through.

[Josh Bayko]

Go back to 2000-ish bodies, 12" spoiler and cheap shocks.

My neighbor a look at my stuff and honestly don't know what they are looking at... When I tell them it's a DLM I get a blank stare... Never heard of them. Get it back to where the public can ID that it's a car and we have a chance if getting new fans.

The big problem with racing isn't car specs....it's getting fans in the stands. We also look at the wrong thing...

The last thing they need is more spoiler.

[hucktyson]

Masters Bobby doesn’t want cars glued to the track ... unhook them and make them hard to drive and the 32 will be parked on the front straight every night . You can’t outwheel that kid you have to beat him on set Uk

[hucktyson]

An RPM rule of 8k wouldn’t be bad

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Huck,

He comes across that he does. But I agree, he would be better off if they were not. He shines at Eldora on overheated, greasy, dying lm 20s.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Rpm rule would be nice in theory. Not sure how you enforce that effectively.

[CageFaraday]

I don't like this. A bigger crank costs the same as a smaller one. Engines get cheaper when you can't use a big one. This concept is a relic from the days where everyone had a set of 23 degree heads.

And less cubes means more rpm and more top end failures. Bobby wants lms to still "look cool" aka be glued to the ground and get cheaper. It don't work like that.

Not sure why its so hard for people to understand this. I hear you MB, but the younger generation just doesn't get it. I dropped by to see the patient and obviously he's not doing any better. It's Super Late Model, NOT Crate or Spec. The reason someone like Booby wants to leave the cars untouched is because the current setup rewards "Banzai" style drivers, if they unhook the cars and suddenly they required more skill to drive instead of flat footing they'd no longer be stars. The current setups and cars reward Horsepower as high as you can get it and drivers who don't need a throttle, just an on off switch. If they do anything in regards to engines and don't address the "Un-sticking" the cars things will sadly only get worse. It's time to, "Get Off The Hook".

[Kromulous]

Just cut down the spoilers, that is all you really need to do. Cut them down to 4" and you will see things change radically.

Bobby's point is clear thou, the $$ that is getting paid is not supporting the racing and im not talking about 1st place $$, thru the field. The race cars need to get cheaper, or at least maintain current levels, or the Pay outs need to rise. That or sponsors need to come in with more $$.

When sponsors come in with more $$ the racing will begin to get watered down, see NASCAR. That is the last thing anyone wants to see, is a bunch of Nancy boys thanking Mt Dew or whoever at every breath...

Anyway, the path FWD needs to be considered carefully.

I would start to consider controlling the production of tires, if only 3-5 compounds and 2-3 sizes we're produced, you would not need a tire rule. If your going to use one Supplier its easy to do, and if they don't want to conform, there are others.

[hardracer32]

Engines are not the REAL issue. Yes, I know they are the most expensive part of the car, BUT, if you take measures to limit traction, i.e. suspension and body rules, then you won't need all that power because you can't get it to the ground. That will negate the cost of the huge engines because then you can build a more affordable, more reliable, longer lasting engine with less power that will be able to compete against the huge horsepower high dollar engines.

It's exactly the same principal in modifieds. They have little skinny tires and no aerodynamics hardly, but you can go and be competitive with a 604 Crate engine against a 600HP built motor.

If they would just reign in the bodies, which is probably one of the easiest things they could do, that would solve almost every other problem that they have. The cars cant use all that body roll for fancy suspension set-ups and traction if the nose height has a 8-10" maximum on the right hand side! Put them on a D55 or 1600 tire on the rear as well and we would be back to something somewhat reasonable. And the racing would be better too!

[hucktyson]

I think im banned again !!

[hucktyson]

So Bobby is a talentless stomp and steer hack ?? How exactly is he always the fastest at the end then ??

[hucktyson]

The announcers never shut up about “ oh pierce is destroying his tires !!!! They’ll never last !!!! And at the end of the race he has more tire left than anyone lol

[waaac77]

The cost of any form of racing has always been a lot. That has never changed. Purses haven’t grown much. The only thing that seems to have changed since the 80s is the amount of fans going to races on a weekly basis. That is the one thing, in my mind, that has changed the most and the main reason why tracks don’t make the money they used to. Gotta get families there. Clean up the facilities and make them kid friendly so you can hook them at a young age. Give prizes away. Attract people! You own a business you need to get customers in order to make money.

If the drivers want to have a conference about how to make it cheaper then great. Good luck. If you ask me it’s a waste of time because it’s not the problem. Cost to race has always been high but there aren’t as many fans anymore because wives wear the pants in all families now and there are a lot more family functions and soccer games going on than there were back in the day. Times have changed. The average Joe today seems to only worry about how he/she can coast through life and get rich with no effort whatsoever. Look at car commercials these days. Car companies don’t market racing at all. Their commercials are horrible all they do is talk about awards they have won.

A Chevy or Ford commercial in 1988 showed a Chevy Racecar then that same Chevy on the road. It looked similar and made people want it. No one identifies cars with racing anymore they only care if the car is good for the environment. How many Prius’s or Smart Cars do you see at the racetrack? Times have changed and racing has not followed suit. The racing leagues just think we’re all stupid and need to add playoffs and add segments. I believe racing will always be around but it will keep dwindling until there’s about 20-25 guys who can afford to race.

[Pennsboro23]

So Bobby is a talentless stomp and steer hack ?? How exactly is he always the fastest at the end then ??

People just love to hate on Bobby for whatever reason, same with people on here with Scott and JD. They're the 3 most popular drivers on 4m. Bobby can flat out wheel a race car, he can make a bad car look good. The uneducated people seem to think he isn't very good or can only run the cushion, but like you said he still has as much tire as anyone and drives harder than 99 percent of DLM drivers. If he was as good with setup as Scott, the DLM world would be in trouble.

[Illtsate32]

Ya honestly forget an engine rule, enforce some kind of shock and spring rule so they cant run this setup where the car is sealed to the ground and its got buku traction. When 900hp will hinder you more than help you in the A main, the problem wiil fix itself...now idk what rules that should exactly be, but thats the area that needs to be adressed imo...

[highspeeddirt]

Would something as simple as a carburator size limit work? After the fuel stop at Kville I was thinking why can't we go 100 laps there anymore without running out of fuel?

[cjsracing]

Come race IMCA if you want a restricted engine.

I didn't mind Bobby until his crying about the track when they interviewed him at Knoxville.

[hucktyson]

Yeah 800 hp that costs 30-35 k and runs 1800 Laps would ruin racing !! It’s not racing unless it makes 900 hp and grenades after 600 Laps and costs 55k

[hucktyson]

You people are soooo incredibly stupid . Trust me guys who have the big money will quit eventually when their big money can’t buy them wins ... and the guys that love racing will already have moved on.

[brsteg]

No way do I want to see an engine cubic inch limit. They are called Super Late Models for a reason. No Neutered Late Models for me !

They only started calling them Super Late Models (atleast in my neck of the woods) in the mid 2000's when they watered the Late Model class down with crates and steel blocks.

It'll still be the top class of late models, and still be an open motor even with a CI rule, because you can legally open them up and tune, and design/build them how you see fit to make up the max CI.

I personally think unlimited CI is an absurd thing to chase, and there should have been a limit a long time ago.

Now I don't know how you tech 'em. How do they tech the Sprint cars that are in 360 and 410 classes?

[regis78]

Raise the rear deck height to 41" then put 2" spoiler on it will put the driver back in it.

[mcarter815]

Go back to 2000-ish bodies, 12" spoiler and cheap shocks.

My neighbor a look at my stuff and honestly don't know what they are looking at... When I tell them it's a DLM I get a blank stare... Never heard of them. Get it back to where the public can ID that it's a car and we have a chance if getting new fans.

The big problem with racing isn't car specs....it's getting fans in the stands. We also look at the wrong thing...

DLM in 2000 didn't look like street cars either. Your neighbor probably hasn't been exposed to much dirt racing. Most people I run into around here don't know that people even still race at local tracks.

I think the late models look sexy today.

[Cardirt0]

Just like the good NASCAR Drivers say . Make the cars were we have to drive them once more. (Speck frames, Speck body's Cut costs by 50%), Put a 2-in high by 2 foot opening on the bottom middle of the Splinter. Air under the car Get rid of the Airo, Now the car can not be run flat out, You have power to pass.. Costs go way down in NASCAR. Bobby Just saying something needs to be done and hes RIGHT.

[waaac77]

Engines and performance don’t appeal to anyone anymore because if your headlamp in your car goes out today you have to take the wheel off, the wheel covers off, remove 16 other items to replace the bulb then put it back together so unless you have a lift in your garage you’re taking it in to the nearest shop. The average person has no knowledge of cars anymore so they aren’t going to just come to the track themselves.

The track owners need to do a better job of making the racetrack a cool place to go. It’s the #1 reason why a business survives... customers! Even racecar drivers need customers or fans to survive. The real issue isn’t the rules. Teams will always break those with something new. You have to get more fans if you want to keep up with the cost of the sport. Not sure why that is so hard everyone (except Krooser) to understand! These teams work their tails off to get an advantage over the next guy and win. Most track owners do not work their tail off to get fans and make money. Seems they just open the gates and expect everyone to show up.

[bullring]

Take away some traction through suspension and aero and you don't need 900 horsepower. But something needs to be done. Talent won't get you very far now compared to a big wad of money.

[racindirty2]

$25,000 claim rule

[dirty-white-boy]

Take away some traction through suspension and aero and you don't need 900 horsepower. But something needs to be done. Talent won't get you very far now compared to a big wad of money.

I tend to agree with this guy. Is Bobby saying that a 410 WoO sprint car motor costs less than a competitive DLM motor?

These tracks/series cant even enforce most of the simplest rules so how would they effectively enforce a CID rule?

I wanna see Cody run a big money race on the hardest tires Hoosier offers with 3 inch spoilers. Lets see who can really drive!

Call it the Hard Tire Hundred.

Cody are u listening?

[Hoosier_Dirt]

No way do I want to see an engine cubic inch limit. They are called Super Late Models for a reason. No Neutered Late Models for me !

Would you know the difference if nobody told You? Probably not.

[Krooser]

I can tell you the 9-1 compression rule of the early 80's saved late model on pavement in Wisconsin... Even D*ck Trickle was an advocate. The CWRA implemented it, used a Whistler every night to enforce it and it meant you could run one engine two-three nights per week for two seasons without a rebuild.

Then the big dollar guys convinced Joe Lunchbox that spending more was better...

[Cardirt0]

The thing is once you give a Kid Ice Cream. You cant tel him he cant have more.

[Josh Bayko]

$25,000 claim rule

Claim rules have never worked.

[Cardirt0]

Claim rules have never worked.

Has to be one of the worst rules ever

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Masters Bobby doesn’t want cars glued to the track ... unhook them and make them hard to drive and the 32 will be parked on the front straight every night . You can’t outwheel that kid you have to beat him on set Uk


Right. JD, Scott, Richards, EPJ, Owens, etc., they’d just blow. Didn’t you mention something in another thread about sooooo stupid?

The same people no matter the rules will be at the front. All of the ones who are good now will be good regardless.

[weatherman85]

Just glad to see high profile people in the sport speak out about it. Ray Cook, Bobby P., Jay D. Maybe if enough noise is made they can all finally get together at least. Doubt they will agree on something but at least talk about it.

[brsteg]

The thing is once you give a Kid Ice Cream. You cant tel him he cant have more.

My parents did that to me numerous times.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Engines are not the REAL issue. Yes, I know they are the most expensive part of the car, BUT, if you take measures to limit traction, i.e. suspension and body rules, then you won't need all that power because you can't get it to the ground. That will negate the cost of the huge engines because then you can build a more affordable, more reliable, longer lasting engine with less power that will be able to compete against the huge horsepower high dollar engines.

It's exactly the same principal in modifieds. They have little skinny tires and no aerodynamics hardly, but you can go and be competitive with a 604 Crate engine against a 600HP built motor.

If they would just reign in the bodies, which is probably one of the easiest things they could do, that would solve almost every other problem that they have. The cars cant use all that body roll for fancy suspension set-ups and traction if the nose height has a 8-10" maximum on the right hand side! Put them on a D55 or 1600 tire on the rear as well and we would be back to something somewhat reasonable. And the racing would be better too!

That's called the Street Class.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That's called the Street Class.

Did you enjoy late models in the 1990s? 1980s? I did.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Did you enjoy late models in the 1990s? 1980s? I did.

I have always liked them for what they were and are at the time. Except for the first couple of years that UMP was created. I still remember Bob Memmer giving his UMP dictatorial speech at Barren County. "we are organized, blah blah blah......... lol Bob loved that place, but I think they told him not to do that anymore.

And the window had to be big enough on the cars for Bob to get in and out of himself. :) Lee Hoffman type cars did not appeal to me.

[bb14]

Limiting piston speed would be a key to engine rules. Let them have 430+ but mandate the length of the rod. Remember these are supers.

This does away with the high revving motors and prolongs rebuilds due to the lesser piston speed. Not a really smart engine guy but wouldn't this nullify the advantage of the wide bores? Wider bores with shorter strokes =higher revs. Isn't this why everyone wants a wide bore?

Regardless taking away spoilers will not help. You definitely need to bring in the nose a foot or so and eliminate the splitter protrusion. The technology is out of the genie bottle. You can't put it back in regardless of what peopl on here think.

[goincircles]

Might cut some cost if you didnt beat the heck out of the right side of your car not to.mention tear the deck lid and spoiler off so one dementional as a driver up against the wall untill the cushion goes away then closer to the wall

[Illtsate32]

CnB ya those guys will still be up front, but so will other drivers who absolutely have no chance to the way things are now...

[Illtsate32]

Might cut some cost if you didnt beat the heck out of the right side of your car not to.mention tear the deck lid and spoiler off so one dementional as a driver up against the wall untill the cushion goes away then closer to the wall

Could somebody translate???

[Kromulous]

Wide Bores allow bigger pistions, in turn more cubes. A 450 Wide Bore is a 430 Std, same stroke and rod, bigger piston.

You could mandate a spec block and head and let them go wild from there?

Spec motor with a weight break? like USMTS does?

[Cardirt0]

Could somebody translate???

Bla Bla Bla Bla does that help

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have always liked them for what they were and are at the time. Except for the first couple of years that UMP was created. I still remember Bob Memmer giving his UMP dictatorial speech at Barren County. "we are organized, blah blah blah......... lol Bob loved that place, but I think they told him not to do that anymore.

And the window had to be big enough on the cars for Bob to get in and out of himself. :) Lee Hoffman type cars did not appeal to me.

Bob saved the sport, like him or not.

[billetbirdcage]

Something to think about, with something like a Cubic inch rule:

1. You are going to cost the teams a ton of money to switch engine over.
2. Is this going to bring in more people (move up a class, start racing LM's again) then it might drive a few teams out due to having to redo the engines they have?
3. Would for sure need an RPM rule with the smaller engines or it will get just as carried away as it is now.


Sure a guy could do this over time, by adding a weight penalty to the larger engines for a while to allow guys when they need to replace cranks to convert over to the smaller CID's. There isn't a simple answer to this as most things are going to have/cause other issues that will need to be dealt with.

I'm still for unhooking the cars with taking the aero away and harder tires, this is the first place to go IMO. No one can say for sure if it will make racing better or not, but you can always adjust things if it makes it worse. A guy could argue that the overly soft tires at Eldora makes racing interesting and causes drama with tires going away, so just a hard tire may not be the answer either.

It's just not that cut and dry on many of these things, but something needs to be done.

I also remember when you used to be able to race anywhere with the same basic rules, now every place has different tires you need to use. I know many don't go some places just because they don't want to buy tires for just one race. Why do we have so many tires basically the same (55, 40, 1600)

[Cardirt0]

Wide Bores allow bigger pistions, in turn more cubes. A 450 Wide Bore is a 430 Std, same stroke and rod, bigger piston.

You could mandate a spec block and head and let them go wild from there?

Spec motor with a weight break? like USMTS does?

Or a Fat short hole thats 40% more likely to break

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Limiting piston speed would be a key to engine rules. Let them have 430+ but mandate the length of the rod. Remember these are supers.

This does away with the high revving motors and prolongs rebuilds due to the lesser piston speed. Not a really smart engine guy but wouldn't this nullify the advantage of the wide bores? Wider bores with shorter strokes =higher revs. Isn't this why everyone wants a wide bore?

Regardless taking away spoilers will not help. You definitely need to bring in the nose a foot or so and eliminate the splitter protrusion. The technology is out of the genie bottle. You can't put it back in regardless of what peopl on here think.

Piston speed is a function of stroke and rpm. Rod length changes geometry, so no effect on ultimate piston speed.

I guess I should correct myself. Ultimate acceleration isn't effected by rod length. Top piston speed will be altered by maybe 1%.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Bob saved the sport, like him or not.

Well he changed it for sure for some time. Now what is UMP all about?

[Cardirt0]

Well he changed it for sure for some time. Now what is UMP all about?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Well he changed it for sure for some time. Now what is UMP all about?

It is a joke now. Not his fault. We need a new Bob.

[joytoy]

Why not run 1.25 carb spacer , 8000 chip Only 40 s with punch test. Engine size whatever

[Clayton_Wetter]

It is a joke now. Not his fault. We need a new Bob.

He meant well. Once someone cut his beloved dog with a knife at a racetrack in Kentucky while he was working and it died. He left it in the car or van and someone got to it. How horrible can you be? I'll never forget that.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

He meant well. Once someone cut his beloved dog with a knife at a racetrack in Kentucky while he was working and it died. He left it in the car or van and someone got to it. How horrible can you be? I'll never forget that.

He more than meant well. Wedge cars nearly ended it

[ZERO25]

Hard tires will bring out every dime store "chemical engineer"!

That wouldn't be all bad.....I know a guy! :)

[brsteg]

Limiting piston speed would be a key to engine rules. Let them have 430+ but mandate the length of the rod. Remember these are supers.

This does away with the high revving motors and prolongs rebuilds due to the lesser piston speed. Not a really smart engine guy but wouldn't this nullify the advantage of the wide bores? Wider bores with shorter strokes =higher revs. Isn't this why everyone wants a wide bore?

Regardless taking away spoilers will not help. You definitely need to bring in the nose a foot or so and eliminate the splitter protrusion. The technology is out of the genie bottle. You can't put it back in regardless of what peopl on here think.

They eliminated the wedge car even though the aero was out of the bottle. And sure the argument is that the wedge cars are back; but that was because of weak officiating and it took 25 or 30 years to get back here.

You can outlaw some of the tricks, and new ones based on old will pop up; but sometimes you have to scrap it and start again. The cars cost too much, the engines cost too much, time for some major consideration.

Tracks that used to have a weekly class of 30-40 late models now get in the mid teens. 238 late models would got to Eldora, now only 99 showed up in shape to race.

In a perfect world where money was no issue we could just stand by and see who keeps making the mouse trap better. But because money is most certainly an issue we need to make the mouse trap simpler in the name of good competition and survival.

Sprint cars haven't grown overly complicated in the last 20 years, and they have cycles certainly, but I think we can see where they are maintaining and maybe slowly up-ticking, while Late Model class is getting smaller and smaller; and a little less fun as we no longer have the home track heroes that can put a real fight to the tour invaders.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

He meant well. Once someone cut his beloved dog with a knife at a racetrack in Kentucky while he was working and it died. He left it in the car or van and someone got to it. How horrible can you be? I'll never forget that.That’s messed up Clayton. Chicken crap

[chupp n bloomer fan]

CnB ya those guys will still be up front, but so will other drivers who absolutely have no chance to the way things are now...It’ll be all the same people I mentioned plus Bobby and a couple others. The rules aren’t going to change whose at the front. Everyone wants passing points and no qualifying, guess who is still at the front, the same people.

Don’t get me wrong, it surely needs to change. Knock some spoiler off, hard tires they check, get the bodies in check, and go from there. Start with things you can tech pretty easy and go from there. And enforce the rule book.

[Illtsate32]

^^^^^Agreed...

[Cardirt0]

When they killed his Dog that was a Sad Day

[Stefan2k4]

In my opinion, this is not a well thought out idea. Making the engines smaller in displacement is NOT going to make them cheaper or more reliable. They will only wind them higher. All else being equal, a little motor can make as much power as a bigger motor, if you can wind it higher. If all you do is reduce the displacement, this is exactly what they will do. They will start pushing the RPMs higher and this will result in a more expensive and less reliaible engine.


Not sure what this will accomplish. NASCAR engines are 358 cubic inches and have just as much power as our stuff.. only difference is Nascar engines are way MORE expensive

Bingo! And look at the RPMs they are turning those engines are turning. There's a connection there.

If anything, maybe the answer is to go the other way. How much do the Big Block modified engines cost? How long do they run them between rebuilds? Maybe the solution is to go bigger and turn less RPM. Bigger engines would have more torque, so you'd run a higher gear in the rear end and turn less RPMs.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Back in the mid seventies many late models had a 454 big block. I never heard the RPM get real high on them and they could last a long time.

[Josh Bayko]

In my opinion, this is not a well thought out idea. Making the engines smaller in displacement is NOT going to make them cheaper or more reliable. They will only wind them higher. All else being equal, a little motor can make as much power as a bigger motor, if you can wind it higher. If all you do is reduce the displacement, this is exactly what they will do. They will start pushing the RPMs higher and this will result in a more expensive and less reliaible engine.



Bingo! And look at the RPMs they are turning those engines are turning. There's a connection there.

If anything, maybe the answer is to go the other way. How much do the Big Block modified engines cost? How long do they run them between rebuilds? Maybe the solution is to go bigger and turn less RPM. Bigger engines would have more torque, so you'd run a higher gear in the rear end and turn less RPMs.

Big block mods use a steel block and aluminum heads, and are around the same cost as a mid level late model motor. Sure, you don’t twist ‘em as hard and they go longer in between rebuilds, but there wouldn’t be any significant savings. True big block mods are on the decline and they’re exploring lower cost options too.

[kidrock]

I know of a couple track promoters one still at it the other is not and they both tried quite a few things to get more fans in the stands as a matter of fact they even tried specials for the racers and they never showed as well so, sometimes it's more then just a lazy promoter. There is a real problem with getting fans and racers to your local track and one of them is cost.

[Stefan2k4]

As for the discussion of piston speed as Masterbuilt already mentioned that's primarily a function of stroke. Longer stroke equals higher psiton speed. Shorter stroke equals less. Rod length in relation to stroke affects the acceleration and decceleration of the piston and how long it pauses as it changes direction at top and bottom. However, Stroke is the main factor here. Anyway, wide bore motors should reduce piston speed because you need less stroke to get the same displacement. However, the question in my mind is whether piston speed is really the biggest concern. The thing to remember here is we are talking push rod engines here and as you wind them up higher, the valve train will likely be the first point of failure. There's a reason Indy car engines use overhead cams. That's why we commonly see valve train failures in both late model and Nascar engines. At the RPMs they are pushing them to nowadays, it's the weakest link.

[Zonks32x]

No way do I want to see an engine cubic inch limit. They are called Super Late Models for a reason. No Neutered Late Models for me !

Let's really make them SUPER and allow traction control, true "open" cheated up tires, fuel injection, and nitrous.

And when there's 6 cars in the pits for the World, we can all sit there dumbfounded and say, "D@mn, how did this happen?"

[fastford]

there has been some good ideas here and in past threads about saving supers, and i am glad at least some one is trying , but , i am a realist and cant realy see any of it working , and i really wish it would, but take billett and some others idea and restrict aero and go to smaller , harder tires , problem is , the ones with the 10k plus shocks and smashers and dyno,s in the trailer are still gone hook up better than my 2k afco,s. , and like i have said , you keep limiting all performance components one the car, then you have a spec or crate or limited car , not a super...

[CageFaraday]

Less traction = Less need of HP and thus down goes engine costs. I may be in the minority but any rules that attempt to fix the problem by fiddling with the engine output is a non-starter to me. The reason why is because as long as the car is capable of using 850HP racers are going to pressure engine builders to find that lost HP by any means necessary. Also attacking the problem with more engine rules only makes tech'ing the cars that much more difficult and time consuming to go over. Take away the cars ability to hike up and the spring smasher becomes an expensive paper weight. Hike up could be limited by an actual travel limiting chain on the LR, not unlike what Ray Cook is doing only more restricting. Take the nose height closer to the ground like they use to be, around 6 inch from surface and then they can't roll the car over as hard without destroying the nose and further hindering the aero. Now I have no doubt those with resources will do what they can to regain what they can that is lost, but it makes the difference between the haves and have not's much less. Harder tires I don't think are the answer and in my experience always leads to more cheating, ie like the year that Red Headed guy from North GA won the SAS title with bogus D55's he relabeled himself. He did such a good job the Hoosier rep couldn't tell them from the real thing by looking. A good tire rule is open comp/open brand, but you have to run what you qualify on, maybe with the caveat that you can change 1 rear for the heat and 1 for the feature. Pulling in to change tires after a race has started results in a 1 lap penalty, no exceptions. The point is you can achieve the results you want and not make the tech man need to be an engineer to police it and Supers can remain Super, not a limited, crate or spec. As long as the traction remains high, those who can will spend what they have to to be at the front. Another idea to really hurt the hike up potential is to do away with left side j-bars, RS panhard bars only. And ALL forward facing links must be level at ride height and longer than 17 inches.

[Mod Runner]

All good opinions in this thread. I go to SLM races to see the near ultimate in dirt Late Model racing. I am interested in engines and love to see engines pushed to the limit. Blown engines just add to the interest in the race. Sure, I hate to see my favorite drivers blow an engine, but I am always curious as to why the engine blew. If a driver is not blowing engines now and then, I tend to feel he is not pushing the envelope far enough. Racing is kind of survival of the fittest. No matter what type or class of racing there is , there is always a concern of cost being too great. Race car body rules and enforcement may do more to level the playing field then engine size.

[let-r-eat]

I'm a restrictor plate hard tire person. Limit carb size and punch tires. That's the cheapest and easiest way. A $30K powerplant will be for durability only and a good backyard builder can build one that will compete.


Look at the classes that are growing. Sport Mod etc.

[fastford]

cage , you might as well go ahead and add oil shocks and one spring per wheel to your suggestion , which to me makes it a spec class with open motors , I am racing on probably as low a budget as any one on here , but i am fortunate enough to have some equipment and knowledge to build a lot of stuff myself , but for some one on my budget and unable to build a lot of things themselves , i dont see how they could be competitive in SLM under any rules , its done been proven in the "economical" crate classes......

[MotoMatt]

I'm a restrictor plate hard tire person. Limit carb size and punch tires. That's the cheapest and easiest way. A $30K powerplant will be for durability only and a good backyard builder can build one that will compete.


Look at the classes that are growing. Sport Mod etc.


What sport mods are you referring too? IMCA? Almost all of them use the 604 Crate and that worked for about half a season years ago, as quick as they saw the opportunity "approved re-builders" were tearing down brand new ones and going through the bearings and rings, clearance matching, balancing them and selling them for more. And to boot, a lot of them will say for $$$ I will put whatever you want in that thing and seal it up for you...its a joke. Now, do I think its a good class, darn right I do, but the crates have gotten out of hand because at the local level there is no incentive for the track to investigate a sealed crate and the large group of cheaters stay up front.

[mcarter815]

What sport mods are you referring too? IMCA? Almost all of them use the 604 Crate and that worked for about half a season years ago, as quick as they saw the opportunity "approved re-builders" were tearing down brand new ones and going through the bearings and rings, clearance matching, balancing them and selling them for more. And to boot, a lot of them will say for $$$ I will put whatever you want in that thing and seal it up for you...its a joke. Now, do I think its a good class, darn right I do, but the crates have gotten out of hand because at the local level there is no incentive for the track to investigate a sealed crate and the large group of cheaters stay up front.

Sport mods run the 602 and I can get a couple seasons out of one 602 without opening it up. The blueprinting is overrated.

[Kromulous]

Here is the funny part of it, perspective, i am a crew chief on a SLM, we race weekly around Cincy Ohio. Here is what we do in the Pits, the real deal.

The Big Motor is required in qualifying. That is about the only time you can really use it, and Heat races it is required, otherwise your in the way, and or getting ran over. Ask anyone one here that races, they will agree, all out motor and new tires.

Feature time, track slicks off, your looking for every way possible to de-nut the power plant. Ask Bobby Pierce, he will confirm it, a lot of guys disconnect the aft 2 bbls on the Carb. How much power does that cut off? not sure, there are Carb company's that are making smaller carbs now too, 600 cfms etc. We also retard the timing up to 4 degrees at times, most have a switch in the cab that can do it on the fly.

Also they are now making spacers, the one that is under the carb, that restrict the size of the hole. Its a restrictor plate essentially. It has a couple of effects on the Engine, but the overall purpose is cutting power.

So where does this leave us? Not sure but de-hooking the cars when the track requires the big power is the key, otherwise you just dont need it, and it makes driving in the slick hard. The guys that win the Big shows are very skilled at applying the absolute most power, to maintain the highest speed on the track. Its not easy by any means.

This is a perspective from racing at like Florence Speedway, weekly, most often on the slick side. The more traction available the more power you need, the 2 go hand in hand.

[Car Biz]

Here is the funny part of it, perspective, i am a crew chief on a SLM, we race weekly around Cincy Ohio. Here is what we do in the Pits, the real deal.

The Big Motor is required in qualifying. That is about the only time you can really use it, and Heat races it is required, otherwise your in the way, and or getting ran over. Ask anyone one here that races, they will agree, all out motor and new tires.

Feature time, track slicks off, your looking for every way possible to de-nut the power plant. Ask Bobby Pierce, he will confirm it, a lot of guys disconnect the aft 2 bbls on the Carb. How much power does that cut off? not sure, there are Carb company's that are making smaller carbs now too, 600 cfms etc. We also retard the timing up to 4 degrees at times, most have a switch in the cab that can do it on the fly.

Also they are now making spacers, the one that is under the carb, that restrict the size of the hole. Its a restrictor plate essentially. It has a couple of effects on the Engine, but the overall purpose is cutting power.

So where does this leave us? Not sure but de-hooking the cars when the track requires the big power is the key, otherwise you just dont need it, and it makes driving in the slick hard. The guys that win the Big shows are very skilled at applying the absolute most power, to maintain the highest speed on the track. Its not easy by any means.

This is a perspective from racing at like Florence Speedway, weekly, most often on the slick side. The more traction available the more power you need, the 2 go hand in hand.

Yep we were doing it in the 90's MSD retard on the big big motor (440-446) spacer plates on the smaller ones.

We had a adjustable spacer plate once it was like a carbon fiber material. Never could get it to work because of the force of tightening the nuts done on the carb flanges cool idea though

[formercrewguy]

We had a whole box of different manifold insert sizes. Wide open for qual(usually), and would go smaller as the night progressed,if needed. Changing sizes also meant a gear change(very important). Most teams are doing this nowadays.

[CageFaraday]

cage , you might as well go ahead and add oil shocks and one spring per wheel to your suggestion , which to me makes it a spec class with open motors , I am racing on probably as low a budget as any one on here , but i am fortunate enough to have some equipment and knowledge to build a lot of stuff myself , but for some one on my budget and unable to build a lot of things themselves , i dont see how they could be competitive in SLM under any rules , its done been proven in the "economical" crate classes......

I disagree, I'm not for specifying parts. I say let everyone buy or build what you want, it just has to fit in the same box at the end of the night. That to me is what Super late model was for years, my brain against your wallet. How you got spec parts out of what I said is beyond me, I'm totally the opposite. Once you start throwing on restrictor plates and mandating tires it reduces what was super, to a spec class and that already exists, crate. And crate sucks, period. The only thing worse is the 602 class which is what you described, spec everything, which makes the racing dull and single file, same with hard a$$ spec tires.

[garrett87]

Wide bore motors and the expense is discouraging new and old super late model racers from staying in the class. Not everybody can spend 50 grand on a new wide bore motor. Sorry but I see it all the time. There will come a day when maybe they don't have any field "fillers" then what are they going to do. Ten big teams cant put on a big show worth watching. Guess Ill just stick with crate.

[LithiumGO]

Bobby Pierce on Twitter - An idea to cut some cost - Limit engine size to 415 - 420Link - http://www.twitter.com/BobbyPierce32/status/1041807571928133637I won’t deny Bobby is a talent who improves the Late Model fan experience but I find it odd that a person who goes through cars like Kleenex is pointing fingers at engine costs.

[smooth32]

How many cars has he gone thru? I heard he started the season with 2 and added one more. Doesn't seem to excessive to me.

[CageFaraday]

Wide bore motors and the expense is discouraging new and old super late model racers from staying in the class. Not everybody can spend 50 grand on a new wide bore motor. Sorry but I see it all the time. There will come a day when maybe they don't have any field "fillers" then what are they going to do. Ten big teams cant put on a big show worth watching. Guess Ill just stick with crate.

You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".

Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.

So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.

Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...

While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.

[fastford]

cage ,we will have to agree to disagree , because to me all all your suggestions adds up to what i consider a spec class where the rules you lay out specify nearly every aspect you can or can not do , other than engine , this class already exists in one form or another , I do agree with you , maybe its best to let SUPERS run its coarse . All of it really boils down to the promoters , and whose toes are they gone step on ,do they cater to the big money guys and there sponsors and keep the budget guy running in the back ,or cater to the budget guy and penalize the ones with the funding to have all the expensive stuff , which hurts the manufacturers of this stuff, and for the promoters , that is a tough one to call....

[Illtsate32]

Yes fastford and cage, wehrs,keyser,afco,integra,penske doesnt want anything to change,and those are the people who are really running this sport...

[Josh Bayko]

cage ,we will have to agree to disagree , because to me all all your suggestions adds up to what i consider a spec class where the rules you lay out specify nearly every aspect you can or can not do , other than engine , this class already exists in one form or another , I do agree with you , maybe its best to let SUPERS run its coarse . All of it really boils down to the promoters , and whose toes are they gone step on ,do they cater to the big money guys and there sponsors and keep the budget guy running in the back ,or cater to the budget guy and penalize the ones with the funding to have all the expensive stuff , which hurts the manufacturers of this stuff, and for the promoters , that is a tough one to call....

His proposed rules obsolete literally everything but the drivetrain. Forcing your all of your competitors to buy completely new rollers and spares isn't going to save anybody a dime.

[mcarter815]

Not at first, but it could in the long term.

[CageFaraday]

His proposed rules obsolete literally everything but the drivetrain. Forcing your all of your competitors to buy completely new rollers and spares isn't going to save anybody a dime.

Now that’s not true JB. You could use the same cars you have with mild updates. I get it, you guys like the “Face down, a$$ up” DLM attitude and can’t imagine running any other way. If y’all are looking for a solution where nobody spends a dime, they don’t exist. We didn’t get here over night or for free. Surgery involves pain, but sometimes we need it to move forward. The only things being obsoleted are bumps, stacked springs, a ridiculously wide nose and changing a bumper. It’s fine I’ve already said my good byes, just waiting on the phone call from the hospital. Nice talking to you guys again, I’m out. Like the fat kid in dodgeball. 😳

[Josh Bayko]

You could not use the current cars with “mild updates” if you require square tube. That’s a whole new chassis at the very least.

[fastford]

i like both you guys , but lets be real , money controls DLM now more than ever , and all our suggestions on an internet forum will never be recognized anyway , and cage , i dont know what you meant with your last couple sentences , but good luck...........

[Clayton_Wetter]

You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".

Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.

So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.

Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...

While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Actually the fiddle was not even invented yet and Nero was 35 miles away at the time of the fire,staying in his villa at Antium.:):):)

[CageFaraday]

JB, I don't think you read the whole thing. The list I put up was for a whole different class, not Supers.

...While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a whole new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward...

@ Clayton, Well saying he strummed a harp isn't as lyrical. Who said he couldn't fiddle across town anyway and have some "False Flag" operatives setting fires while he poses for photo ops and does a few selfies... LOL

[ZERO25]

You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".

Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.

So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.

Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...

While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.

1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.

Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.

That type of car is also known as Nesmith Street Stocks!