Help Malcuit Engine

[tworrick]

I have a 14 1/2 degree motor from Malcuit. This off season had a engine shop put new sleeves in refreshed the whole motor. sense then have sent it back 3 times because it smokes. IT appears to be water from intake I believe. When you take the carb off you can see all runners are wet. HE has tried to seal it but still the same. I pressure tested it with radiator and it looses pressure of about 10 lbs in less than 5 minutes. I originally thought was the head gasket but water seems to be only in intake. Looking for ideas what we are missing or if someone has a good motor guy who could look at it asap. Really need help so frustrated. it is 428 all aluminum Dart Block .

[Kromulous]

Where are you located?

What kind of Intake is it, 2 piece?

[tworrick]

Where are you located?

What kind of Intake is it, 2 piece?

Indiana . yes it is a 2 piece. it has a plate

[Kromulous]

What Engine Builder did you go to?

I hope PERFCONN see's this, he would be the best one to ask probably on this board, but i cant see how water would be getting into the Intake area's with a 2 piece Intake.

Thinking out loud here, but if the intake face wasnt sealing, it would just bleed into the valley. I would be worried about a crack in the ports. Is there any epoxy in the ports anywhere?

[billetbirdcage]

My guess is a crack behind the sleeve, had a similar thing happen before.

Why was the sleeves replaced? did it break or just out on max bore and needed sleeves replaced?

[tworrick]

Don't want to hear a really bad mouth the engine builder on here. But let's just say it didn't turn out well the reason we replace the sleeves was because it had been bored and to its limit so it just needed resleaved. It was really the first rebuild on the motor. The block was checked very well by a seperate shop that does these kinds of motors all the time. It wasn't cracked before sleeving. Does that happen when installing them? I would think that would not show up in the intake runners?

[billetbirdcage]

Don't want to hear a really bad mouth the engine builder on here. But let's just say it didn't turn out well the reason we replace the sleeves was because it had been bored and to its limit so it just needed resleaved. It was really the first rebuild on the motor. The block was checked very well by a seperate shop that does these kinds of motors all the time. It wasn't cracked before sleeving. Does that happen when installing them? I would think that would not show up in the intake runners?

If that is the case (wasn't blown up), then I doubt a crack behind the sleeve is the issue.

Next question, Was the sleeves seated good before it was decked?

Was the sleeves still above the deck? like .003 to .005 or was it milled flat with the deck? The sleeves will sink if not seated good by installing a steel ring head gasket with a torque plate. I had this happen and it was pushing water out the lower head stud (believe it or not) as the sleeve breaks thru the edge of the aluminum around the stud.

None of this really explains the water in the intake unless it does this running and has a fair amount of reversion and is pulling water from the combustion chamber and back into intake.

Just throwing out ideas that haven't been mentioned.

[billetbirdcage]

If you have a head off, feel and see if the sleeve is below the top of the aluminum on the deck. engine builders vary on this, some will mill completely flat but generally only if they know or have a process to make sure sleeves are all the way down and won't drop and others always leave sleeves a few thousandths above the deck.

[fastford]

some water in the fuel cell maybe ? probably not but stranger things have happened......

[Kromulous]

Wow, never would of thought about that, reversion pulling water back thru the valves / chamber, around / thru the head gasket.

Makes sense thou, since its smoking (burning water etc) .

I would guess it smokes more the hotter it gets?

[billetbirdcage]

Wow, never would of thought about that, reversion pulling water back thru the valves / chamber, around / thru the head gasket.

Makes sense thou, since its smoking (burning water etc) .

I would guess it smokes more the hotter it gets?


Not any different then when you got a head with a hole around the push rod or an intake gasket out sucking oil into intake runner, just a month ago a mod guy had a engine that smoked bad and couldn't figure it out. Had a shop reseal the intake as it was thought an intake gasket was out of it and pulling oil into a cylinder. There was a fair amount of oil in the plenum of the intake, when I looked at it for him at the track but most of the oil was tracing down #4 cylinder and I told him if the intake was sealed then it had to be a hole beside the pushrod. That is what it turned out to be, but reversion will coat the intake with a light film of oil pretty easy.

I'm just guessing here, as I'm assuming the water in the intake is after it runs and not just pressuring the coolant system with it never running.

#NOTE: If your not used to dealing with aluminum blocks the sleeve deal is any easy thing to do and a common mistake the first time you mess with them.

[tworrick]

[QUOTE=billetbirdcage;2224958]If that is the case (wasn't blown up), then I doubt a crack behind the sleeve is the issue.

Next question, Was the sleeves seated good before it was decked?

Was the sleeves still above the deck? like .003 to .005 or was it milled flat with the deck? The sleeves will sink if not seated good by installing a steel ring head gasket with a torque plate. I had this happen and it was pushing water out the lower head stud (believe it or not) as the sleeve breaks thru the edge of the aluminum around the stud.

None of this really explains the water in the intake unless it does this running and has a fair amount of reversion and is pulling water from the combustion chamber and back into intake.

Just throwing out ideas that haven't been mentioned.[/QUOTE
Yes the sleeve was left two thousands above. He used original head hasket part number with silicone. First time we noticed is on right side lower head bolt furthest foward was leaking. That had stopped. But showed up in intake. Ues it gets worse the warmer it gets. With little to no smoke on start up.

[billetbirdcage]

Yes the sleeve was left two thousands above. He used original head hasket part number with silicone. First time we noticed is on right side lower head bolt furthest foward was leaking. That had stopped. But showed up in intake. Ues it gets worse the warmer it gets. With little to no smoke on start up.

Is the engine currently together?

If it is this would be my plan of attack: first try to figure out if its a head gasket/sleeve issue (coolant leak into combustion chamber) or a coolant leak somewhere else.

1. I'd warm up engine and blow air into cylinder (like a leak down) with radiator cap off and see if it tries to blow water out radiator or see bubbles. If not you can say it's probably not a coolant leak into combustion chamber. Your probably gonna have to do every cylinder. If you don't have a leak down tester but have a compression gauge, just remove the shrader valve from the hose that screws into the plug hole and just use whatever line pressure you have from compressor.

2. Warm engine again and pressure the coolant system and remove carb (do only carb at first) then intake (if possible and still have coolant passages sealed) and see if you can see water coming from some place like an intake port or something.

Not sure what else to tell you at this point, but have a feeling it's sleeve related but could be wrong.

Side note: was all sleeves replaced or just a few. I thought all but last post made me think otherwise

[tworrick]

Is the engine currently together?

If it is this would be my plan of attack: first try to figure out if its a head gasket/sleeve issue (coolant leak into combustion chamber) or a coolant leak somewhere else.

1. I'd warm up engine and blow air into cylinder (like a leak down) with radiator cap off and see if it tries to blow water out radiator or see bubbles. If not you can say it's probably not a coolant leak into combustion chamber. Your probably gonna have to do every cylinder. If you don't have a leak down tester but have a compression gauge, just remove the shrader valve from the hose that screws into the plug hole and just use whatever line pressure you have from compressor.

2. Warm engine again and pressure the coolant system and remove carb (do only carb at first) then intake (if possible and still have coolant passages sealed) and see if you can see water coming from some place like an intake port or something.

Not sure what else to tell you at this point, but have a feeling it's sleeve related but could be wrong.

Side note: was all sleeves replaced or just a few. I thought all but last post made me think otherwise
Yes all was replaced. The engine is out but still together. We hooked up the radiator up. And attached a pressure pump to the water outlet. 30psi. It did leak down 10 LBS. Less than 5 min. I do like the idea you had.

[let-r-eat]

Find someone with a smoke machine and smoke the cooling system. Pull all the plugs out and you will see where it's going.

[tworrick]

Is the engine currently together?

If it is this would be my plan of attack: first try to figure out if its a head gasket/sleeve issue (coolant leak into combustion chamber) or a coolant leak somewhere else.

1. I'd warm up engine and blow air into cylinder (like a leak down) with radiator cap off and see if it tries to blow water out radiator or see bubbles. If not you can say it's probably not a coolant leak into combustion chamber. Your probably gonna have to do every cylinder. If you don't have a leak down tester but have a compression gauge, just remove the shrader valve from the hose that screws into the plug hole and just use whatever line pressure you have from compressor.

2. Warm engine again and pressure the coolant system and remove carb (do only carb at first) then intake (if possible and still have coolant passages sealed) and see if you can see water coming from some place like an intake port or something.

Not sure what else to tell you at this point, but have a feeling it's sleeve related but could be wrong.

Side note: was all sleeves replaced or just a few. I thought all but last post made me think otherwise

I honestly believe it is coming up through the intake runners. question explain what happens on sleeve installation? Like i said this one was left two thousands above .

[Kromulous]

Something you said, they used silicone on the head gasket surface? That cant be common, i have never done that, anyone else?

Just an idea, putting it out there, but what about a block sealer? Just to get by one for a while? I think Moroso or some Co makes a ceramic block sealer. I have used it before on a Mod engine that had some leaking head bolts.

[Kromulous]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-35500?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-moroso&gclid=CjwKCAjworfdBRA7EiwAKX9HeEQsSNez8FfkI7H9nHVy k3TjA2hlJlDhJRcCQA5TAdS3WUy6lNVOXhoCE84QAvD_BwE

This is what i used.

[billetbirdcage]

I honestly believe it is coming up through the intake runners. question explain what happens on sleeve installation? Like i said this one was left two thousands above .

Didn't understand that, was there a question there? Not sure if you was asking me something or not.

[CCHIEF]

So does it"smoke" from one header or both?

[tworrick]

So does it"smoke" from one header or both?

both sides. but thats because the water is in the intake.

[Jim11h]

Find or borrow another intake and put on. Sure used right intake gasket and everything lines up correct? Gasket didn't move on installation

[fast_crew]

A 2 piece intake with a plate can not suck oil in to the ports. Is this blue smoke or more like white steam that dissipates in the air?? Fill radiator pump up a few times, pull the plugs and crank it over watching for water to spray out spark plugs holes. Sounds more like a possible ring seal problem to me though if your actually seeing blue (oil) smoke.

[CCHIEF]

Your problem most likely is in an intake port, epoxy in it that came off or ported into a water jacket that finally gave way. Sleeve or head gasket problems would connect cooling system to combustion chamber or crankcase. No water in oil, correct?