Mastersbilt Gen X HELP!

[genx5]

Have 2011 Gen X Mastersbilt. Car absolutely sucks in the slick. Recently added a LR traction shock, no help. We’ve indexed the birdcage, moved 5th coil, moved bars etc, car still terrible in the slick. It’s like the car stays on top of the track, will not plant the tires.SpringsRF 300RR 250LF 500LR 175

[Matt49]

You haven't told us what your actual handling problem is which would be helpful.
That being said, if you're taking big swings at it and nothing is helping you, something is fundamentally wrong like scale number, something bent, something in a bind, etc.
And this may sound crazy but check your tire pressure gauge.

[hucktyson]

What do you have on it for a right front shock ?

[Krooser]

Might help to go back to the base setup and start over....

[hucktyson]

Right kooser , a 375 rf on an MB1 oil shock with a pair of 225’s on the back with a 12” drop straight from the 2011 set up sheet Panhard at 8.5 center on the pinion rear bars square and and he’ll broom the xr1 / long horn / club 29/ sweet Bloomquist cars with the stuff they have worked on for the last 8 years .... especially when it gets slick ....

[Krooser]

Hucky.... I sense a bit of sarcasm in your reply...

[hucktyson]

Yes that is correct. I don’t think the set up sheet changed from like 2008. Driving off the corner was not their strong suit even back in 2011 against the other 2011 stuff. I have a brand new 2012 sitting In my garage that I bought and built in 2012 but never raced. I might run it this year. The first thing I will do is build an underslung to make the chassis more rigid so it responds to adjustments , change the tube lengths and the left rear 4 link mounts and I honestly think the car will be good with 2018 shock technology.

[Jking24]

Been helping a friend with roughly same year car. Have done similar stuff as you describe but what we fight with it is constant bottoming out. And it flexes way too much. When it's not bottoming out it's not very good lol

[hucktyson]

Masters was very clear at their seminar that the car will be it’s very best the first night and go downhill from there. Having a fexible race car allows you “ room for error “ I guess but it also doesn’t respond to adjustments. I plan to add a few more bars in addition to the underslung. The front has a decent amount of clearance I will just shim the bump spring to go solid before the frame hits. It’s a really nice car that I spent a lot of time building and it’s wOuld be a shame to never race it lol

[Nesmith14b]

We have two smackdowns, and I hope the Gen X has better clearance from bottoming. The stock one bottoms at 2 3/4” and the one we raised the cross member on will go to just shy of 4” on the RF. Just dealing with that was a big improvement on updated shock and spring setups.

[Krooser]

Tader has a nice new design flat plate front cross member...$200.00. Going to use one in my Smackdown.

[genx5]

The main issue we have is lack of forward drive.

[genx5]

What do you have on it for a right front shock ?Car has Ohlins from Viper Motorsports. They came off Eckert’s car. Specifically built for the GenX

[RaceEngineer]

The main issue we have is lack of forward drive.Are you running a 300 RF spring with or without a bumpstop?

[genx5]

Are you running a 300 RF spring with or without a bumpstop?No bump stop.

[Matt49]

No bump stop.

That's way too soft of a spring on that car to not have a bump stop. You are completely de-wedging the car and should not expect any forward drive with that setup.

[RaceEngineer]

That's way too soft of a spring on that car to not have a bump stop. You are completely de-wedging the car and should not expect any forward drive with that setup.Exactly what I would have said.

[ZERO25]

Before the spring smasher days, we ran a 250 rf with the Christmas tree bump from RE with good success.

[hucktyson]

Yes too soft of a rf is going to dewedge the car and kill drive but too stiff isn’t going to have the car fully over on the RF which is going to cause it to not be fully hiked which is also going to kill drive and sidebite from lack of dynamic j bar and drive angle on the left rear. I ran a gen x car for a while I would go softer on the right front and run a bump spring. Unless your at eldora when it’s muddy. when you get traction in the car it’s not going to turn without a big zero point on the right front. That was the “ magic “ tater found in that genesis right front shock they cleaned up with in 2011. The problem is it’s not 2011 anymore and if they came back with that identical car and don O’Neil in 2018 they would get spanked.

[riddle28]

are the newer cars gilpin and casebolt are running a completely different style? alot of MB down here but i never liked how much they flex out

[hucktyson]

The new ones appear to have an xr1 type underslung. Many people did that before as the gen x cars are crazy flexible. Push down on your back bumper and watch the roll cage when it’s on jack stands

[hucktyson]

Am I assume the new ones are docol

[RaceEngineer]

are the newer cars gilpin and casebolt are running a completely different style? alot of MB down here but i never liked how much they flex outUnless gilpin got a new car very recently, both of those cars are not the newest design. Or so I was told.

[genx5]

That's way too soft of a spring on that car to not have a bump stop. You are completely de-wedging the car and should not expect any forward drive with that setup.So the car is probably rolling too much on the RF? I race in WV and OH. The krpytonite guys dominate here and their cars stay pinned on the RF.

[hucktyson]

No , you have to be over on the right front but you need a bump stop towards the end of the travel. I’d put a 250 or 275 on there with an 850 bump spring and shim it to about 2200 at the 4” masters intended it to travel and make sure you have enough zero point to hold it there

[RaceEngineer]

Mostly sound advice above, but a bumpstop requires less aggressive zero point and low speed rebound.

[hucktyson]

Raceengineer I don’t like how they keep packing further and further down until you start bottoming out when the track is fast and you can really stay in the RF. I always used rubber bump stops but after using bump springs I can’t see ever switching back

[RaceEngineer]

I don't have that issue. But I do things differently than most. If you want to stop the suspension at a repeatable place, a progressive rate is best. A progressive rate also bleeds off load fast so the shock doesn't have to be as stiff on rebound. Over damping kills traction.

[hucktyson]

I guess you are running something harder than a Penske blue then

[hucktyson]

The bump spring does get progressive as it starts to coil bind ..

[RaceEngineer]

The bump spring does get progressive as it starts to coil bind ..I don't like binding springs. I believe linear for ride and progressive to stop. It's just my philosophy. I don't use the cone, tree, whatever you want to call it style bumps.

[Matt49]

On the Penske black, we definitely had issues with it packing down and eventually causing us bottoming issues at a high banked place. Going to the blue fixed that for the most part. We're likely going to get away from bump rubbers and do some more work on dual-stage springs (stacked). It seems like there is more margin for error there than the bump spring in terms of travel allowance before it starts getting progressive.

[SmithGT]

What's the best spring option on the RF of a GenX if you can't run bump stops or stacked springs?

[TheJet-09]

I've heard and believe a 350#, maybe 325# is a good starting spot. I was wondering though, with all the talk about the RF, is everybody on the same page as far as what lower shock mount they are using (there are two on a Gen-X RF lower)?

I learned that lesson when I first got mine, and there is a fairly significant difference in the motion ratio between the two.

[hucktyson]

The softest spring that prevents the car from slamming off the ground ... sometimes that might be a 375 other times it could be a 275 depends on the track and conditions. I believe driving style plays a roll also some styles generate more RF load than others

[RaceEngineer]

The softest spring that prevents the car from slamming off the ground ... sometimes that might be a 375 other times it could be a 275 depends on the track and conditions. I believe driving style plays a roll also some styles generate more RF load than othersDon't forget shocks. 100# @ 10 in/sec compression and you bottom out with a 650# RF spring.

[Matt49]

I've heard and believe a 350#, maybe 325# is a good starting spot. I was wondering though, with all the talk about the RF, is everybody on the same page as far as what lower shock mount they are using (there are two on a Gen-X RF lower)?

I learned that lesson when I first got mine, and there is a fairly significant difference in the motion ratio between the two.

Inside hole. Moving to the outside hole stiffens the RF significantly.

[RaceEngineer]

I always use the outside because it is similar to the smack location.

[hucktyson]

Have you done anything to stiffen your gen x ? I plan to start working on mine in a few weeks. I just have to decide if I’m going to buy a crate or not before I decide what to do to it ...

[RaceEngineer]

Stiffened the front. Not the rear. I think doing the rear isn't a bad idea.

[smartguy13]

I’ve always wondered what a digressive setup would do on the RF...The “preload” would get you to just touching the bump stop, and then the rate spring rate drops dramatically and now most all the rebound has to fight against is a piece of rubber. Not sure it would work, but something I’ve always wondered about.

[MBR Performance]

Where are most guys running there RF? Inboard or outboard on the lower?

[hucktyson]

The further from the ball joint you move the lower shock mount the more likely you are to bend the control arm when you bottom out. If I wanted a softer spring and shock I would make those adjustments instead of moving it in ... that’s probably because I’ve bowed a lot of lower a arms running a bump stop or a non barrel spring ....

[Matt49]

Where are most guys running there RF? Inboard or outboard on the lower?

Most in this area (southern Indiana - MasterSbilt's back yard) are using the inboard hole.

[Basecircle]

I don’t have any experience with a MB chassis specifically, but generally it depends on the Track, driver, etc. There’s no right answer for what’s “better” or they would quit giving the option. You can usually guess with the style of track, driving style, power levels, etc. which will be best, but I’ve seen the opposite of what SHOULD work be better too. It’s what makes these cars such a challenge.

[genx5]

What are your all’s opinions on the short bottom left bar?

[Matt49]

Quotes not working but answering the short bottom left bar question...

It's going to decrease overall indexing and potentially limit your overall travel. Both bad in my opinion.

[hucktyson]

What if he had a throttle push through the center and he made sure it didn’t limit travel ?

[RaceEngineer]

Most in this area (southern Indiana - MasterSbilt's back yard) are using the inboard hole.That location would magnify any bump stop ratchet-down issues.

[Kromulous]

Since it’s a Mastersbilt thread, what are MBH cars? Masters by Heat? Who is Heuy?

Thanks, Krom

[Matt49]

Huck,
I should have also mentioned that the shorter lower bar will increase rear steer. So yes that could help with an on-throttle push but I think there are better ways to solve that problem without changing bar lengths. JMO.

Krom,
Huey was Huey Wilcoxon. Very sharp setup guy that was a MasterSbilt dealer and made some mods (some of which got incorporated into future "versions" of the cars that came out of Crothersville) and sold them as MBH (MasterSbilt by Huey)
He passed away about 4 years ago.

[hucktyson]

The questions need much more clearly defined. The question on the short Lr bottom bar should be “ what effect will it have on the car “ and the increased rear steer and less indexing should make the car rotate the center better. But at some point removing indexing / open load on the LR spring will leave more load on the right rear possibly sticking it harder to the point you may have to slide the car to turn it then once you do that the extra rear steer causes a dog walking effect off the corner instead of helping to turn as intended. It’s crazy how much 15 or 20 pounds of load can change when you are already at the fine line

[CCHIEF]

LR drive angle increases( and decreases) dramatically and faster, the sum of all the probable handling change effects don't add up to a viable adjustment.

[genx5]

Quotes not working but answering the short bottom left bar question...It's going to decrease overall indexing and potentially limit your overall travel. Both bad in my opinion.My car has the standard bar lengths for the left side. Would it be beneficial to remove the shortener bracket and run a bar closer to the same length as the left upper?Also worth noting the car has the short right bottom bar.

[hucktyson]

On this topic I seen pics of the 2018 Casebolt is selling and I see hardly any difference from the new 2012 sitting here ...

[Matt49]

The car Casebolt has for sale isn't at all like what's coming off the jig in Crothersville lately and isn't at all like the car Gilpin drove at the World. Up front is mostly the same with the addition of an X brace between the upper frame rails (like a Longhorn) but the rear end doesn't look like anything that has come out of MasterSbilt in the last 20 years. They are actually still tweaking some things and as of last week they are hoping to do some testing yet this year.
You need to take a look at the pics that Tader posted on their Facebook page on 10/16. Pretty significant differences.

[ZERO25]

The car Casebolt has for sale isn't at all like what's coming off the jig in Crothersville lately and isn't at all like the car Gilpin drove at the World. Up front is mostly the same with the addition of an X brace between the upper frame rails (like a Longhorn) but the rear end doesn't look like anything that has come out of MasterSbilt in the last 20 years. They are actually still tweaking some things and as of last week they are hoping to do some testing yet this year.
You need to take a look at the pics that Tader posted on their Facebook page on 10/16. Pretty significant differences.

How will those differences translate to on track performance? My experience with Mbilts are the Smacks and a smack with the genx frontend. It seems like we spent all night trying to keep the car tight enough. We had pretty good success but they were a lotta work!

[hucktyson]

The extra chassis stiffness is going to make it respond better to adjustments , the 4 link holes look closer and I’m sure additional hike was built in over previous versions. My biggest issue with masters cars is they were way too flexible which made them not respond well enough to adjustments and naturally that also makes them wear out quick. But honestly I think they were on to some stuff in 2011 but it was stuff that needed 2017/18 shock technology to really exploit.

[garrett87]

are the newer cars gilpin and casebolt are running a completely different style? alot of MB down here but i never liked how much they flex out We have owned a mastersbilt and it was a good car for us. Riddle28 what are you talking about how much they flex out?

[Krooser]

Why don't they build those tail sections with an x like Ed Howe used so successfully with his dirt chassis? Seems it would take all that flex right out of the back end.

Looking at those Pennsboro pix I posted in the "Wild West" section I'm reminded of the Whip Mulligan car Larry Moore drove in '83. Around 1600 lbs. maybe less. That car would flex out in 20 laps then come back for the next race/practice and run good for another 20 laps until it was junk again.

I don't believe Moore ran that car in the World that year... he brought two cars as I recall.

[Jim11h]

New chassis to old all parts swap over. Chassis difference is going to be bolt in 4 bar mounting plates, x brace in front of radiator, bar from top of of hoop ( where top stiffening bolt on bar attaches) back to drivers (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit to stiffen front end. Right frame rail moved bends to give more clearance, moved bars around to give more j-bar angle on chassis. Bolt in underslung with more room. Can get up to 18" droop and have like 5" in rf. Also work done on rack mount for clearance. Driver (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit enlarged and halo area bigger to contain driver better. Sounds like material will be regular steel or docol. Car in shop is docol. Seen car up close and spoke with them about it. Sharp looking for sure. Test car has way more 4 link adjustments than anyone needs but that's why this is r&d car

[garrett87]

Why don't they build those tail sections with an x like Ed Howe used so successfully with his dirt chassis? Seems it would take all that flex right out of the back end. Looking at those Pennsboro pix I posted in the "Wild West" section I'm reminded of the Whip Mulligan car Larry Moore drove in '83. Around 1600 lbs. maybe less. That car would flex out in 20 laps then come back for the next race/practice and run good for another 20 laps until it was junk again. I don't believe Moore ran that car in the World that year... he brought two cars as I recall. Yes but that was one of those ultralite cars they built back in the day from what I have been told. That is possible. I was told Ronnie Johnson had an old 2x3 masters that he won a ton races in? Don O Neil was dominant in a masters too. We had one and it was a consistent car I will say that.

[TheJet-09]

Hay @Jim11h, are those numbers you put down accurate? 18" of droop?

I was wondering what kind of LR bar angles you'd have to start with to accommodate that much travel? Or what about the shocks (length or travel)? Just curious if that is even feasible...or needed.

[Krooser]

Yes but that was one of those ultralite cars they built back in the day from what I have been told. That is possible. I was told Ronnie Johnson had an old 2x3 masters that he won a ton races in? Don O Neil was dominant in a masters too. We had one and it was a consistent car I will say that.

IIRC that Mulligan car was built with one or 1 /4" tubing... looked like a sprint car with a body.

[hucktyson]

The original cars were set somewhere around 13” of drop , there are not shocks available that would
Be legal to get to 18” Unless the drop is being measured differntly maybe at the outside edge of the Lr wheel with the right rear compressed or something like that

[collateralDamage]

The Mastersbilt "R" series cars have a completely different rear clip than previous cars. 18" of measured droop might be excessive to some but the car is certainly capable of it.

[RaceEngineer]

The Mastersbilt "R" series cars have a completely different rear clip than previous cars. 18" of measured droop might be excessive to some but the car is certainly capable of it.So the magic is partially in the measurement point? As Huck said, if you are very close to the shock, 8" of ride height, + 10" shock extension, would be impossible unless the front shock wasnt there or the stroke was 10".

[RaceEngineer]

I was happy getting a Gen X to 15" Huck. Lol.

[hucktyson]

The problem is actually the front shock indexing away from the mount as it hikes. You would probably need about 12 or 13” of travel to get a legit 10” of drop as it used to be measured. I imagine you could build a Lr shock that could do the job of both but it would have to be absurdly stiff. The other option would be to run the 9” traction shock on top of the tube and build a big box above the deck to cover the shock as that won’t fit between The tube and deck with how sloped the decks are now. Stiffening those chassis was the number 1 improvement needed.

[RaceEngineer]

Depends on how much dynamic birdcage rotation you have.

[hucktyson]

Unless your top and bottom links are the same length and same
Angle it’s going to be more than zero. With the amount of top rod angle people usually use it’s significantly more than zero

[collateralDamage]

I should clarify. The frame rail of the R Mastersbilts are roughly 3" higher than the previous car. So you would add that to the ride height or droop number. Total travel capability is unchanged and still limited by birdcage indexing as long as the under-rail is deep enough...

[Kromulous]

I noticed some shock companies are offering a 10” stroke now.

So 18” I assume measuring from tube to tube, what’s ride height? Around 10” or so?

Interesting, I can get 6” of droop travel, probably 7” if I tried and thought I was doing something lol.

[RaceEngineer]

10" isn't legal by some sanctions.

[hucktyson]

Penske only has a 10” for behind. For some reason they aren’t making a 10” for the front . It’s the front that’s really the limiting factor. I guess you could have that 10” double adjustable valved with compression only but that’s an expensive “ traction” shock

[hucktyson]

Just check deck height after the race and the spring rates and compression needed to take advantage of the huge hike potential wouldn’t be possible anyway ....

[fastford]

i know some one that is experimenting with the shock in front on a clamp bracket and no under slung that is probably getting close to 18 in.

[RaceEngineer]

i know some one that is experimenting with the shock in front on a clamp bracket and no under slung that is probably getting close to 18 in.Not sure that's the best idea, but would gain drop.

[Drake Racing]

Huck, I have the same car... thinking of stiffening mine as well...what are you doing to yours besides the front X?


Curt Drake
Late Model #55x

[Jim11h]

Just was saying possible and think that was # used. He did say that currently 13½" still. Like stated, car there is r&d purposes currently

[fastford]

Not sure that's the best idea, but would gain drop.

1st time i have seen the clamp be tried with the soft rt frt with bump stop , he has made some gains but the same old binding up problem still exist though and it unloads off the throttle super fast.......

[Kromulous]

We ran that on a Modified on a 5" drop bracket, clamped to the housing, slider on the back with a spring. Very fast but you had to be smooth off the gas, otherwise it would about turn right at the end of the straights if you were a dumper. That car was the best we ever had thou, once he got used to it.

[genx5]

I was happy getting a Gen X to 15" Huck. Lol.How are you getting 15" out a Gen X???!!

[RaceEngineer]

How are you getting 15" out a Gen X???!!Extended lr behind chassis mount. Modified bar lengths and angles. Lrf shock not on cage.