You know what makes a race car cheaper?

[RaceEngineer]

It is less grip. Very simple.

[dirt crow]

Sitting in the stands is cheaper too.

[Rich Riedesel]

Less grip makes modifieds cheaper; but not by a bunch!

[dirtcrazy4u]

Winning the mega millions would make it cheaper ? Because you wouldn't have to worry about a budget.

[Josh Bayko]

Easiest way to take grip away is to take some downforce away. A flat deck at 36” would be a good start to doing that.

[RW57]

The real truth not owning one but you are correct about the downforce though

[dirtcrazy4u]

Bayko. Add some lm40's and re-right the shock rules. Then we would have a race.

[Josh Bayko]

Bayko. Add some lm40's and re-right the shock rules. Then we would have a race.

I can get down with the 40s (and whatever the AR equivalent is) and I’m not looking at shocks as much as I am the stacked springs and bump stops.

[ZERO25]

You could give the top 10 a gm metric, and in short time, they would have them hiked up just like a dlm.

The more you try to put technology in a box.....it will end up like Nascrap!

[Zonks32x]

Flat deck...and height teched after qualifying, heats, and feature.

And...go back to a smaller front nose piece w/out the ridiculous flare.

And I'm definitely kidding with this next one....run 'em on Premium Unleaded.

[RaceEngineer]

You could give the top 10 a gm metric, and in short time, they would have them hiked up just like a dlm.The more you try to put technology in a box.....it will end up like Nascrap!Hike all you want with no spoiler.

[RaceEngineer]

Bayko. Add some lm40's and re-right the shock rules. Then we would have a race.LM 40s are terrible tires and will be cheated. They are only good 2 heat cycles. They are horrible for a budget racer.

[hucktyson]

If Hoosier can’t make an LM 40 that lasts maybe it’s time to try AR56’s. The LM 40 I passed cars at the Pittsburgher with was 3 years old and was worn out already .... Check the deck after the race at 36” and make them lay spoilers back to 40 degrees ... spoilers and t bars are already adjustable .... they can remove a bunch of turns from the right front or add a valance to get to the 10” maximum on the RF. I am
Not advocating making super lates into street stocks. We should have aero rules that make a top notch standard bore 430 about all the power you can possibly put down, if guys want to run more than that Great it’s just not going to help them .... worst case they can back a few degrees of timing out or run a slightly smaller hole in their carb spacer ...

[hucktyson]

I refuse to beleive the country that can find blood stains that were cleaned with bleach 20 years ago we can’t develop a a fast effective, error proof test for tire juicing.

[musolino21]

I like the idea of restricting the deck heights. Though, an issue I come across with my car and other cars I’ve worked on is that at 38”/38.25” deck height the deck is touching the top of the fuel cell’s fuel lines. That’s with the factory mounts. There isn’t a way to reach the 36” mark without reconstructing. Checking the deck height at post race is a rule I would support.

As far as tires, there are way to many compounds out there. I understand the business side for the manufacturers to sell more tires with tires that have a short life span. But, we’re losing cars and having multiple compounds to race at various tracks costs my team and teams like us more money. I raced at Pennsylvania Motor Speedway mostly and a harder compound is needed to race there or tracks near the size of PPMS. 1425’s last for me and anything softer will be greasy after a few laps. If I go to anywhere else from Tyler County, Wayne County, Marion Center, Thunder Mountain, I-77, 1300’s are fine for us. I would have tire wear, but I can still utilize some of the tires for another week. Maybe buy one or two new tires instead of four. In a nutshell, having two compounds would save me money in my situation. 1425’s and 1300’s to be the only two compounds would work for my situation.

[RaceEngineer]

Huck,Maybe you really are fast. You just handicap yourself too much with tires.

[musolino21]

I agree with Jon’s suggestion of limiting the spoiler angle. That’s a rule that can be easily enforced and the teams can easily follow. If sanctions and tracks went with one LM40 rule, I’d be cool with it as well. You can limit grooving tires to take some edges away. There are some rules about “no siping”, but I’ve seen top teams continue to sipe even when the rules were applied. By the end of the race the sipes will be worn off, but sipes we’re still used during the event.

[RaceEngineer]

Limiting grooving kills the little guy again.

[hucktyson]

Serious question do you think you or
Me are smarter about cutting and siping for conditions than Scott Bloomquist ?? On the ungrooved unsiped lm 20’s they wore like concrete at eldora , on a grooved siped 20 you can torch the right front in 5 or 6 laps if you are tight .... not to mention it takes about a minute to replace an untouched tire and be back to racing , not everyone pays a tire guy to handle it. The grooving and siping helps the little guy narritive I always hear is absolute BS

[musolino21]

As a small team, I’m no professional at knowing the right grooves and sipes to make for track conditions. I have my patterns, but not the experience as top tire guys. Therefore, if no grooving or siping is permitted, then that levels the playing field a little bit in my small team’s favor. Plus, working 40 hours or more and having a family, my time is limited to work on the car and not having to sipe and groove will save time. That’s another issue I hear from competitors that they don’t have time to work on the car. Just speaking for myself.

[RaceEngineer]

What am I supposed to do with a tire with no edges? Throw it away? If I can cut it, I will fix it. Don't spend too much time racing Bloomquist, so I don't care. Did dohm cut his tires better at prp than Bloomquist?I re-edge tires all the time. It don't take long to groove when you don't change many. As poor folks operate. Noo grooves is for rich lazy folks who feel inferior.

[RaceEngineer]

If the guy who has 4 stickers every time is deterred by the work, I have a better chance he won't have new ones.

[RaceEngineer]

What do I do when it's half worn out and needs more cuts to get the rubber moving again? I'm poor. I can't buy a new one yet. Bloomer got his free.

[hucktyson]

Here’s the problem with the argument. It pretends that people run new tires until they are worn before the grove them. Which Is not the case. Everyone takes new tires and cuts and sipes them to the max before they are run. Are your worn out tires that are grooved and siped going to outrun their brand new tires that are grooved and siped ??

[hucktyson]

Bloomer doesn’t get his free

[hucktyson]

If everyone grooves or no one grooves it’s a level playing field without the extra work or tire wear

[ZERO25]

Hike all you want with no spoiler.

Ive never been to a street stock race that didn't have spoilers.....I assumed that was a given!

[RaceEngineer]

You put a new one on. I can't afford it. I could have grooved my worn tire. You just cost me money

[RaceEngineer]

Ive never been to a street stock race that didn't have spoilers.....I assumed that was a given!Ump mods don't have them. LM don't need them. We have been discussing aero as the problem.

[RaceEngineer]

Bloomer used to get at least 100 free. Don't know now.

[hucktyson]

But your tire was already grooved before you wore it out .. I don’t believe that you are going raw ungrooved unsiped on a new tire against guys grooving and siping new tires ...

[RaceEngineer]

Budget guys indeed add grooves as they wear. They are operating in a vacuum. It doesn't matter how much Bloomer cuts his. As a tire wears, it takes more cuts to build the same shear, wear, and heat in the block.

[RaceEngineer]

Of course you groove them. You need more cuts when the block is half height.

[grt74]

It is less grip. Very simple.

selling it, lmao, i had too

[Matt49]

A hard tire rule just means that guys will buy a new set every week to get fresh edges since that's what you race on with a compound that isn't helping you.
Until they get rid of the spread bore motors, the sport will continue to decline in terms of people that can afford to participate. If there was an option out there for a competitive motor for 15-20 grand, every person out there running a crate or a limited would figure out how to make that happen. But there isn't...
This is really an argument about cause and effect. Some people think that better aero caused the demand for big motors. Some people think that the big motors caused the demand for better the aero.

I'll ask the question this way: What would you rather have? A class where all of the chassis and suspension components are to a spec (everybody the exact same) but go as crazy as you want on motor? Or a class where everybody has the same motor but you can do what you want with the chassis and suspension?
Now factor in the current cost of a DLM rolling chassis and the current cost of the competitive motors and give me an honest answer.

[hucktyson]

Matt we it would not take many changes to make the additional power of a spread bore motor unuseable. Lower the decks 3” to 36” on the scales after the race , lay the spoilers back to 40 degrees and make the new max rf height 10” instead of 15. Those minor changes will make that extra power not useable. There is no logical argument that can be made against doing that. I’m not saying new shock and spring rules because the checking after the race will police the shocks and springs on its own

[hucktyson]

If you make spread bores illegal what will those guys do with them ?? Let them keep their spread bores and pay double for Rebuilds just negate their advantage

[dirtcrazy4u]

Matt 49. Spread bore motors are never going away. The rule makers, lucas and wrg, 100% understand what's going in SLM racing. Go to the PRI show. The rule makers don't talk to the little guys. They talk to champions from each series, crew chiefs, and owners. Francis, alone, expressed for years about cost getting out of hand. So what has he accomplished after year 1 ? He came down on guys at the first race of the year at GIS. Quite a few had to make body adjustments. I haven't seen anything since then. Richards, bloomquist, and others want to keep the number of competitors that they no can beat them to a minimum. Boy I'd like to see inverts come back for feature races. The big block mods up in new York do it the best. Time trails and heat finishes get you to the big show. Then you draw a pill for your starting spot in the feature. The big block mods are under the wrg banner so I'm not sure if it's changed or not.

[Josh Bayko]

Matt 49. Spread bore motors are never going away. The rule makers, lucas and wrg, 100% understand what's going in SLM racing. Go to the PRI show. The rule makers don't talk to the little guys. They talk to champions from each series, crew chiefs, and owners. Francis, alone, expressed for years about cost getting out of hand. So what has he accomplished after year 1 ? He came down on guys at the first race of the year at GIS. Quite a few had to make body adjustments. I haven't seen anything since then. Richards, bloomquist, and others want to keep the number of competitors that they no can beat them to a minimum. Boy I'd like to see inverts come back for feature races. The big block mods up in new York do it the best. Time trails and heat finishes get you to the big show. Then you draw a pill for your starting spot in the feature. The big block mods are under the wrg banner so I'm not sure if it's changed or not.

The SDS uses the same redraw format as the WoO late models.

[Matt49]

The additional power of the spread bore motors already IS unuseable in slick track conditions. But you can't qualify without it and then (when the track is heavy) it would behoove you to lay the spoiler back.
Guys aren't going around Eldora when it is black slick with it matted to the floor all the way around the track. Until they are, you'll never convince me that aero is causing the motor problem. It's the other way around. When there is traction in the track, you need all the power the rules will allow. Then when the traction goes away, you need the aero to ASSIST with getting traction back. You could go with the 1984 UMP bodies and guys that can afford it are still going to have a $50,000 motor because the rules allow it and when you need HP you'll have it. The insane HP allowed by the current motor rules is the root cause of the problem...just my opinion and it's been well documented on here in the past so I'll pipe down a little.

[hucktyson]

Physics limit how fast a 2350 pound car can go and still change directions at the end of the straight away. Explain to me why Kevin rumley would risk being parked for the weekend to run the Lr deck up another 1.5 after Francis turned his back if it is not
Important ... I am
Proposing lowering the deck 3” and consider Air shocks hold the deck at 42 or 43 after they hit the first bump in
Actually talking about lowering them 6 or 7 inches along with laying the spoilers back. But by all
Means please tell me more about running an open motor at a place like eldora or Pittsburgh since you have not done it .... perhaps you can tell me how

[RaceEngineer]

Why have a spoiler at all? Then you don't need an angle finder.

[hucktyson]

Cars look terrible without a spoiler but if they want to remove them I’m fine with that too

[ZERO25]

The additional power of the spread bore motors already IS unuseable in slick track conditions. But you can't qualify without it and then (when the track is heavy) it would behoove you to lay the spoiler back.
Guys aren't going around Eldora when it is black slick with it matted to the floor all the way around the track. Until they are, you'll never convince me that aero is causing the motor problem. It's the other way around. When there is traction in the track, you need all the power the rules will allow. Then when the traction goes away, you need the aero to ASSIST with getting traction back. You could go with the 1984 UMP bodies and guys that can afford it are still going to have a $50,000 motor because the rules allow it and when you need HP you'll have it. The insane HP allowed by the current motor rules is the root cause of the problem...just my opinion and it's been well documented on here in the past so I'll pipe down a little.

Yep, those spread bores are irrelevant on black slick tracks(which most features are run on).When feature lap times are 3 plus seconds slower, motors aren't the issue!

[RaceEngineer]

Yep, those spread bores are irrelevant on black slick tracks(which most features are run on).When feature lap times are 3 plus seconds slower, motors aren't the issue!Sure helps to be half a track ahead when they throw the green and everyone is the same speed.

[hucktyson]

Exactly !!! When it’s heavy it takes big power to qualify. To come from the back at eldora you have to be blazing fast

[RaceEngineer]

Leave the spoiler sides on so it looks good from the side then. Lol

[Josh Bayko]

How about going with a 4” spoiler with the current sides and center support. Wouldn’t change the way the cars look really at all, and would take a ton of downforce away.

[RaceEngineer]

It would help. I have raced a super with no spoiler, although on a bullring. It makes a real difference. I say if a little is good, a lot is better.No spoiler also gets rid of the clean air BS.

[ZERO25]

But will it make better racing!

Cost is insignificant if the racing sucks and fans leave!

[Illtsate32]

You can drill 4 inch holes all through it too, all above ideas are good...

[Kromulous]

Like i said in the other thread, no one wants to go backwards. Best ideas are to try and hold the speed where its at now.

6" spoiler. Tech after the races, in an controlled environment, aka no crew or outsiders around the car. Thats for starters, i would like to add a max spoiler angle, simple no go gauge.


Matt49 is right on about the motors, big motor to qualify, then you tip toe, most run on 2 bbls.

[RaceEngineer]

Like i said in the other thread, no one wants to go backwards. Best ideas are to try and hold the speed where its at now.6" spoiler. Tech after the races, in an controlled environment, aka no crew or outsiders around the car. Thats for starters, i would like to add a max spoiler angle, simple no go gauge. Matt49 is right on about the motors, big motor to qualify, then you tip toe, most run on 2 bbls.Taking the wedge bodies off and making the tires smaller in the early 80s was going backwards, if you mean lap times. Car counts recovered and the golden age of dlm happened afterwards.

[RaceEngineer]

But will it make better racing!Cost is insignificant if the racing sucks and fans leave!Why would it hurt it? If clean air means less, it has to help.

[Kromulous]

Cant use quotes, but Wedge cars we're basically unsafe.

I think you can dial them back, a little, i meant going backwards as in going 2 seconds slower a lap (Modifieds speed). You can cut Spoilers, and de-wedge the cars somewhat and bring up the racing, and slow the cars down .5 seconds a lap, maybe a little more.

I dont think you will ever contain the costs, best you can wish for is slow it down. Speaking of costs, anyone watch Fuel Dragsters run anymore? them guys spend cubic bucks, and its mostly the same guys from 40 years ago, car owners etc.

[musolino21]

Like i said in the other thread, no one wants to go backwards. Best ideas are to try and hold the speed where its at now.

6" spoiler. Tech after the races, in an controlled environment, aka no crew or outsiders around the car. Thats for starters, i would like to add a max spoiler angle, simple no go gauge.


Matt49 is right on about the motors, big motor to qualify, then you tip toe, most run on 2 bbls.

^ I like this for an easy and immediate change. 6" spoilers and post-race tech.

[hucktyson]

What is cheaper .... taking 5 or 6 hours to make a new fuel cell cage to allow 36” or working the amount of hours required to buy a 55k motor ? It looks like the xr1/ longhorn / Black diamond cars most people are running have a few inches available to lower the deck.

[formercrewguy]

So far none of these suggestions make these cars cheaper...…..but keep beating the gong.

[RaceEngineer]

A statement without explanation is useless. They certainly decrease the power you can get to the ground. Therefore a cheaper engine works.The situation is no different than the wedge days except the chassis work better so more needs to be done.

[Stefan2k4]

Speaking of costs, anyone watch Fuel Dragsters run anymore?

Every chance I get. Live and in person, is best. Nothing like the sweet yet pungent smell of nitro to awaken the senses but if I have no other choice, televised is okay.


them guys spend cubic bucks,
~$5K per pass, assuming nothing catastrophic happens on that pass, then it gets exponentially more expense and catastrophic events are not at all uncommon.


and its mostly the same guys from 40 years ago, car owners etc.

Not entirely. It's true we"ve still got the big 3 teams Shumacher, Force, and Kallita. However, there's new blood in the ranks awell, like Steve Torrrence, whom I hope to watch clinch his first Top Fuel Championship in just a few hours in Las Vegas. Steve is a young man who's overcome a lot in his young life, including cancer, a heart attack, and a very scary crash last year that ultimate cost him the title last season.

Anyway, I think in the last couple of seasons NHRA has had quite a few sellout shows.

[hucktyson]

The problem is simple .... the people who have successful businesss that they illegally bleed their racing money from ,who don’t care how much money they burn don’t want to see any changes. The problem is that those people are very rare . So should the rules cater to them or to the majority of race teams ? Fans cry about small car counts , fans cry if tracks aren’t wide open with cars flipping every race . We can reduce the need for massive power with a few simple changes but the people willing to buy an advantage obviously scream like they are being murdered if any changes are proposed

[Stefan2k4]

the people who have successful businesss that they illegally bleed their racing money from

Illegal? You got proof of that? Before you go accusing people of breaking the law, you need to have some proof. Just who are you accusing of breaking the law and what's your evidence to support that claim?

If you're talking about sponsorship, advertising and PR campaigns have always been a legitimate business expense and big time racing has been dependent upon that for many many decades.

The question here is what level are we talking about. It's just like baseball, you have the minor leagues, then you have the major leagues. If you can't afford to compete in the major leagues, then you compete in the minor leagues. That's just the way it is. For example if I wanted to play some baseball, I could not call up the LA dodgers or Boston Red Sox and demand they allow me to play for them in their world series game this evening. Why? Because I'm not a professional baseball player and don't meet the requirements to compete on that level. On the other hand, if I want to go out in the front yard and toss a baseball around with the neighborhood kids, I can certainly do so. The bottom line is you compete at the level you are capable of. If you can't afford to compete at the top level, you have no right to demand that the top level be dumbbed down to allow you to do so!

[RaceEngineer]

Illegal? The question here is what level are we talking about. It's just like baseball, you have the minor leagues, then you have the major leagues. If you can't afford to compete in the major leagues, then you compete in the minor leagues. That's just the way it is. For example if I wanted to play some baseball, I could not call up the LA dodgers or Boston Red Sox and demand they allow me to play for them in their world series game this evening. Why? Because I'm not a professional baseball player and don't meet the requirements to compete on that level. On the other hand, if I want to go out in the front yard and toss a baseball around with the neighborhood kids, I can certainly do so. The bottom line is you compete at the level you are capable of. If you can't afford to compete at the top level, you have no right to demand that the top level be dumbbed down to allow you to do so!What we are talking about would be say the Buffalo Bills and Cleveland Browns being priced from the NFL. We are talking about folks who "belonged in the big leagues" not belonging now. I don't see your argument being an apt comparison at all.

[hucktyson]

Have you ever been audited ? I have 5 times in 19 years. The IRS would have an absolute field day with these guys claiming 3,4 500k in “ advertising “ expenses on money donated to their personal
Hobby lol. Donating the money to someone else’s hobby is legit donating it to your own hobby is not . But hey fella I can care less what you do. To your comment why have any rules at all ?? Let’s allow carbon fiber and titanium everything and let’s allow all types of electronics and shocks you want , let’s allow those sidewall inserts Just let it be all you can spend and hope you spent enough so it can die a quick death and start over

[hucktyson]

The concept that you can fund your personal hobby with profits from another business and deduct it has another name ... felony tax evasion ....

[ZERO25]

Quick.....someone go tell Rick Hendrick he is a tax evader!!! lol

[hucktyson]

Rick Hendrick is a billionaire ... the interest on his money could run his cup teams without any outside help. His teams end Up in the black. Dirt late model teams do not

[Stefan2k4]

Quick.....someone go tell Rick Hendrick he is a tax evader!!! lol

And how about Dunn Bension? I suspect they would not take too kindly to being called tax cheats here, considering how upset they were by the Eldora tire test. And how about Forrest Lucas? Morgan (his son for those who don't know) used to race top fuel. And Steve Torrence, whom I mentioned earlier, is sponsored by his father's company. And his dad races top fuel as well and in fact will face off against his son today in round 2 at Las Vegas. Both cars have Capco on them. And how about Paul Menard? The list goes on and on. What's being alleged here is that half of the motorsports world are "tax evaders".

[chupp n bloomer fan]

While I think Huck opened a can of worms, I used to work for a racing family. And I would venture to say he is spot on. People can be butt hurt about it, but you just simply don’t blow money on racing, get next to zero ROI, and not try to get it back with Uncle Sam, hide it from Uncle Sam. You do, you hire very good tax people, and hope they know how to tweak it just right.

And them super rich in Late models aren’t who ya cater too. The good regional guys are who ya really lean on. Because most of them wanna be national, they just flat cannot afford it.

[hucktyson]

I know I am 100000% correct , I ran through these scenarios with tax attorneys who work for Deloitte, they are customers of mine so we BS’d about it while I was on their projects and they specialize in defending their clients during audits . Google Deloitte if you don’t know who they are. Massive amounts of tax fraud are committed by all types of dirt race teams and the biggest offenders are the ones who own very successful businesses and racing is their hobby. You can’t just dump 500k after 500k with nothing to show for it lol. You guys can get mad all you want reality is reality , a rocket chassis invoice is not a legit business expense for a trucking company lol. I’m sure they twist and spin to manipulate anyway possible but unless they get audited and pass you can’t say it’s legit.

[Stefan2k4]

You do, you hire very good tax people, and hope they know how to tweak it just right.

But that's not illegal. Taking advantage of loop hole isn't illegal. When you use the term "illegal" you're implying people are breaking the law and that's a serious allegation to make without proof.


And them super rich in Late models aren’t who ya cater too. The good regional guys are who ya really lean on. Because most of them wanna be national, they just flat cannot afford it.

Why? Again are we talking national, regional, or local? Why should the national series, that the best of the best compete in be dumbed down for the regional and local guys. There are lots of dirt tracks all around the country and local racers can race weekly at those local track. There are the regional series and drivers who wish to follow those can as well. That means there are at least 2 other levels that those who can afford to run the national series can compete one. So, why should we dumb down the top series to "level the playing field". Maybe the NFL should shortened their fields from 100 yards to 50 yards so lesser teams stand a better chance? Maybe the NBA should lower their baskets to 5 feet so short guys can dunk with the best of them? Perhaps, MLB should out law fast balls and shorten all the parks so everyone can hit a home run?

[Stefan2k4]

I know I am 100000% correct

The only way you could know that is if you examine everyone's tax return and their books. Are you telling us you've examine the tax returns and books of every DLM race team? If so you should call the IRS and report this illegal activity you are 100000% sure is taking place. In fact, if you know this so certain, you may be legally obligated to. If you a crime is being committed aren't you obligated to report it?


but unless they get audited and pass you can’t say it’s legit.

Since when is a person guilty until proven innocent, especially when the allegations are entirely based on speculation?

[hucktyson]

This is already a form of racing that allows unlimited money to dominate its called F1. Lewis Hamilton makes 100 mil a year spending 5k in a car wear to win a 10k race is not a business it’s a hobby. I didn’t suggest dumbing down the cars. Are the woo sprints dumbed down since they have smaller wings , no wicker bill and a weight limit now ???

[hucktyson]

And I am not calling out anyone specifically I am speaking in general terms

[hucktyson]

I bet you were ok when Harry Reid said he heard mitt Romney never paid taxes though .... with zero proof

[hucktyson]

DLM sponsors don’t and can’t see a return on that investment unless they sell race parts . That’s another reality it’s a donation not an advertising expenditure

[chupp n bloomer fan]

But that's not illegal. Taking advantage of loop hole isn't illegal. When you use the term "illegal" you're implying people are breaking the law and that's a serious allegation to make without proof.



Why? Again are we talking national, regional, or local? Why should the national series, that the best of the best compete in be dumbed down for the regional and local guys. There are lots of dirt tracks all around the country and local racers can race weekly at those local track. There are the regional series and drivers who wish to follow those can as well. That means there are at least 2 other levels that those who can afford to run the national series can compete one. So, why should we dumb down the top series to "level the playing field". Maybe the NFL should shortened their fields from 100 yards to 50 yards so lesser teams stand a better chance? Maybe the NBA should lower their baskets to 5 feet so short guys can dunk with the best of them? Perhaps, MLB should out law fast balls and shorten all the parks so everyone can hit a home run?I didn’t say illegal, you did. I’m not naming names, and I personally don’t care, I’m not the IRS. Family members and previous employers I know did all they could to keep the money. Hide it, etc. Legal, illegal, I’m not a tax expert. Had a former co worker whose Mom was a CPA, and I do my taxes, so I’ve got a jest of what you can and can’t do. Very naive to think you don’t do all you can to not give Uncle Sam money. Legal or illegal.

So you think our current situation with dirt late models is sustainable and growing? I mean Jesus, Eldora gets less than 80, DTWC gets 49 cars, and so on. Great analogies. Lemme know when multi millionaires, billionaires, and huge corporations are putting millions into dirt late models, then you can compare the two. And I pray that day does not come. Though it is getting there and it ain’t pretty. But maybe you’ll be cool with about 14-20 cars.

[Stefan2k4]

I've never been concerned about Mitt Romneys tax return, nor am I concerned with anyone else. My own tax returns is all that concerns me. The tax laws are complicated and full of loop holes. If we don't want anyone exploiting those loop holes, we need to come up with a simple system that would just certain rates and not all kinds of BS. As long as we have such a system, people are going to try to get the best deal they can, even if that means exploiting loop holes. They aren't to blame for that. We are because we've voted for leaders who created such a convoluted exploitable system.

Sponsorship doesn't always produce a direct tangible return on investment. Sometimes it buys mindshare or PR. Having your name on a race car does not sell your product or service. Your product or service must sell itself based on it's merit. However, it will make people aware that your service or product exist and can create branding. It gets the name of your business into the minds of the public. The rest is up to your product and it's merit.

[ZERO25]

Rick Hendrick is a billionaire ... the interest on his money could run his cup teams without any outside help. His teams end Up in the black. Dirt late model teams do not

Wow.....Rick showed you his tax returns, interesting!

[Stefan2k4]

I didn’t say illegal, you did

Neither you nor I introduced the word "illegal" in this discussion. See post #61. Hucktyson did! I used the word "you" indirectly and was not specifically referring to you. I apoligize to you, Chupp n Bloomer Fan, for the confusion that may have caused. What I should have said was when one uses the term "illegal" they are implying that someone has broken the law and that'os a serious allegation.

[Illtsate32]

Huck you mean you mean your table saw dont run off a 430 all aluminum? Lol ur sprayers don use the stain that comes in those vp 55 gal drums? Lol im just kiddin with ya...

[hucktyson]

thats honestly how absurd it is. They wanted justification as to why I needed soo many actual construction tools !! I’m talking circular saws and table saws were a point of contention for them !! I’m just saying lots of people claim lots of things as deductions but until it’s audited that doesn’t mean it’s legit. Like people go out and spend 500 on dinner and booze every week and deduct it lol. I mean yeah that’s great until it gets audited ... The people in charge with looking into it aren’t stupid and they actually do research before they come out. Either way I can care less , I’ll continue to do everything by the book and others can roll the dice all they want.

[hardracer32]

formercrewguy you're missing the point. the suggestions being made don't have to make the cars cheaper to build in order for them to have the desired effect. what they have to do is make it so that it doesn't help anyone to spend more money in order to be competitive. if you take away traction, then engines don't automatically become cheaper, but it does allow cheaper engines to be competitive. it doesn't make shocks cheaper, but it does negate some of the advantage of having them

[hucktyson]

Yes that is correct. If you made no spread bore rules then you make a bunch of motors obsolete, if you can take away 10% of the traction the 10% more HP a spread bore makes is irrelevant. It’s not about dumbing down the sport it’s about making people rely more on driving and chassis set up than on aero and HP

[mcarter815]

But that's not illegal. Taking advantage of loop hole isn't illegal. When you use the term "illegal" you're implying people are breaking the law and that's a serious allegation to make without proof.



Why? Again are we talking national, regional, or local? Why should the national series, that the best of the best compete in be dumbed down for the regional and local guys. There are lots of dirt tracks all around the country and local racers can race weekly at those local track. There are the regional series and drivers who wish to follow those can as well. That means there are at least 2 other levels that those who can afford to run the national series can compete one. So, why should we dumb down the top series to "level the playing field". Maybe the NFL should shortened their fields from 100 yards to 50 yards so lesser teams stand a better chance? Maybe the NBA should lower their baskets to 5 feet so short guys can dunk with the best of them? Perhaps, MLB should out law fast balls and shorten all the parks so everyone can hit a home run?

It hasn't been the best of the best in a long time. Just like NASCAR, it's the richest of the racers.

[Illtsate32]

It hasn't been the best of the best in a long time. Just like NASCAR, it's the richest of the racers.

Right. Im sure theres a lot of Ross Chastains in late model racing too, got the skills but will never get a shot because of $...