Tours vs Outlaw

[Illtsate32]

With a lot of the top talent drivers going to outlaw schedules, do you think there could be a way for the tours to work together? I think they should reduce the number of points races to around 20-25 max, mini tours, and spread out the races through the year to 2-3 races a month. And not schedule against each other. How great would it be if the top 20 drivers in the country could run every race and compete for the title in both series. Talk about bragging rights to take home both titles. You could have the two series champions and then an overall points champion that paid like 250,000 to win. I think that would be awesome...why or why not could this ever happen?...

[dch191]

I think it would be a neat idea and cool to see eventually but I don’t think it’ll happen anytime soon simply because there’s not a real need for it. As long as Lucas and WoO are getting full fields and fans are willing to pay to see them as is then what’s the motivation from the promoters standpoint to change what’s already working.

[CageFaraday]

Would rather see both National series dissolve and everyone go outlaw. Bragging rights don't feed mouths or pay bills or rebuild engines... Bragging is for fools.

[Illtsate32]

Dch I agree with you. Its just that now days everybody wants to measure someones sucess on how well they do on a tour and its what seems to draw most peoples interest. I was just thinking up a way where drivers and fans alike could get what we all seem to want...

[Illtsate32]

I liked it better when it was more about bragging rights and guys did it to say im the fastest and best at what I do, not to pay bills or feed a family...

[huskerdirt]

I would like to see something like the Big Johnson national championship happened. A certain amount of select races each year that didn’t over lap with either tour. Maybe do 10-12 races total. The 2 at Eldora and then 4-5 from each series that come into play.

Both national series are very healthy right now for tracks. You’ll be hard pressed to find a promoter that will drop a tour show to go unsanctioned.

[CageFaraday]

I liked it better when it was more about bragging rights and guys did it to say im the fastest and best at what I do, not to pay bills or feed a family...

As far back as I'm aware, in my lifetime of 48 years, some have raced for fun(hobby) others raced to make a living. Club racing is typically for bragging rights, but not anybody on a tour. Once racing includes prize money it's game on. Its up to the individual as to how they pursue it, but as long as money is involved somebody is gonna try and take it home.

[Illtsate32]

Absolutely husker, any kind of little series to get all the best racers in the country to participate in...imo the series are too strenuous, a guy might be able to run 99% of the schedule but if he misses one race they will drop off cause you cant afford to miss any...

[ALLDIRT]

Would rather see both National series dissolve and everyone go outlaw. Bragging rights don't feed mouths or pay bills or rebuild engines... Bragging is for fools.

There ya go .

[Illtsate32]

As far back as I'm aware, in my lifetime of 48 years, some have raced for fun(hobby) others raced to make a living. Club racing is typically for bragging rights, but not anybody on a tour. Once racing includes prize money it's game on. Its up to the individual as to how they pursue it, but as long as money is involved somebody is gonna try and take it home.

Cage I wasnt disagreeing with ya, it wouldnt bother me if they dissolved the tours either, but since thats the direction its took in recent years I was just thinking of ways to get the best racers together as much as possible...

[ALLDIRT]

Would rather see both National series dissolve and everyone go outlaw. Bragging rights don't feed mouths or pay bills or rebuild engines... Bragging is for fools.

The tour has taken away the big races like the world , and the DTWC for weekly events .
And don't draw the crowds that pay the big money . for bigger races . More fun for the fans .
Just one opinion . That's the races that are gone .

[Josh Bayko]

The tours already do a decent job of staying off each other’s big dates. A number of years ago, there was some talk about cosanctiong a couple races, but it never happened and the circumstances that would have allowed it to happen are no more.

[edavis71]

As far back as I'm aware, in my lifetime of 48 years, some have raced for fun(hobby) others raced to make a living. Club racing is typically for bragging rights, but not anybody on a tour. Once racing includes prize money it's game on. Its up to the individual as to how they pursue it, but as long as money is involved somebody is gonna try and take it home.

I grew up in Worthington, send me a PM. Would love to chat and know what is going on back home.

[rdcllk]

Many race tracks depend on these series for there yearly profits. With out them. Track would be closing. We don't need any more of that. There's enough cars and fans to support the series. So why drop the race count? Real fans want more races not less

[bleedblue55]

I grew up in Worthington, send me a PM. Would love to chat and know what is going on back home.

Barrackville here, small world sometimes

[RaceEngineer]

Many race tracks depend on these series for there yearly profits. With out them. Track would be closing. We don't need any more of that. There's enough cars and fans to support the series. So why drop the race count? Real fans want more races not lessThat is because people won't go watch crate headliners.

[kazual]

As long as both national series remain independent then its a sign things are going along ok. If you see co-sanctioned events pop up then bet your last dollar that one or both are in trouble. Be careful what you wish for.

[Krooser]

The tours compete for drivers, fans and tracks... why would they give up any of the three? Domyou think WalMart would enter into an agreement with Amazon to limit the number of days each biz can sell?

Years ago we had Nascar, USAC, ARCA and Nascar Winston West... same basic car each running in a different region (although there was some overlap). It worked. Some drivers ran a few races in each series like Foyt did.

I'd like to see Lucas and WoO pull their rules back to match what the average Saturday night Joe
Lunchbox runs and get back to the days when the locals can run with the big biys when they come to town.

[kazual]

My thoughts are the national teams really don’t want the Joe Lunchbacks at tour events. The race teams seem to heavily influence a lot of the day to day things such as track prep, qualifying, and rules that make it harder for the locals to be involved.

[Illtsate32]

Good feedback guys. Ya if they cut back some tracks would def lose a date. Slots for a tour race would def be at a premium and the lucky tracks would see awesome events when all the best roll in. In a perfect world the tracks that lose dates the series could alternate years so worst case scenario you would get a date every other year. Some tracks get two dates as of now so cut back to one series race per track and some wouldnt lose a date at all. My home tracks Tri City and they got two Lucas races and im not opposed to them only getting one so someone else could have a race. Im dreaming I know...

[CageFaraday]

Cage I wasnt disagreeing with ya, it wouldnt bother me if they dissolved the tours either, but since thats the direction its took in recent years I was just thinking of ways to get the best racers together as much as possible...

Cool. In my view we have the "Best"(aka most funded) together too much now as it is. The competition is way over concentrated, which further pushes out and limits smaller teams chances of making the show. There was a time, in between the demise of the NDRA and the juggernaut that was the HavATampa series, when almost all the crown jewels were NOT sanctioned, except maybe the World and DTWC. During this time, mid/late 80's and the early/mid 90's when the big guys didn't face each other every week, they tended to stay to their regions and smaller $10K shows would only draw maybe 6 travelers and the rest were regional locals who actually got run in the feature and if things went their way take home some bigger portion of the prize money. I'm not in favor of forced redistribution of wealth or anything like that, but when it happens naturally it provides opportunity for smaller teams to stay healthy and grow. When a typical race draws 24+ of the absolute best and highest funded there are, the chances of a smaller team to excel is diminished and they know this and stay away. My point is, the more concentrated the Talent is encouraged to remain the more it will continue to shrink the over all size of the sport, ie weekly super late model is dead in many areas of the country that use to be hot beds. Food for thought.

[chad1888]

i dont know how to really put it, but with one series there would not be enough feed troughs. right now you have 20 guys getting show up money and free pit passes. if you cut it back to 1 series you would only end up with 10 guys running the tour, or if you pay 20 guys show up why would i come to your race knowing that i am fighting for the 8 positions left in the show.

[Illtsate32]

Cool. In my view we have the "Best"(aka most funded) together too much now as it is. The competition is way over concentrated, which further pushes out and limits smaller teams chances of making the show. There was a time, in between the demise of the NDRA and the juggernaut that was the HavATampa series, when almost all the crown jewels were NOT sanctioned, except maybe the World and DTWC. During this time, mid/late 80's and the early/mid 90's when the big guys didn't face each other every week, they tended to stay to their regions and smaller $10K shows would only draw maybe 6 travelers and the rest were regional locals who actually got run in the feature and if things went their way take home some bigger portion of the prize money. I'm not in favor of forced redistribution of wealth or anything like that, but when it happens naturally it provides opportunity for smaller teams to stay healthy and grow. When a typical race draws 24+ of the absolute best and highest funded there are, the chances of a smaller team to excel is diminished and they know this and stay away. My point is, the more concentrated the Talent is encouraged to remain the more it will continue to shrink the over all size of the sport, ie weekly super late model is dead in many areas of the country that use to be hot beds. Food for thought.


i dont know how to really put it, but with one series there would not be enough feed troughs. right now you have 20 guys getting show up money and free pit passes. if you cut it back to 1 series you would only end up with 10 guys running the tour, or if you pay 20 guys show up why would i come to your race knowing that i am fighting for the 8 positions left in the show.

Good points guys I cant argue with ya. This is probably a slippery slope but, what if woo and lucas still puts on their normal schedule, but only made say a certain number of races actual points races. Or say you take your best 25-30 races to count for points, you have to run say 35-40 races min on tour to qualify for points title. Il take Bobby for instance, theres certain tracks that for logistics and such he cant or wont show up to, but if he could take his best 25-30 nights, he would still have to run a majority of the races. But that way him, or anybody for that matter, would stick with the tour more than just stop following it because they cant or wont go to a race in say N. Carolina. And vice versa for say like JD or Madden, im sure they would rather not count Macon as Bobby would rather not count Fayetteville or West Virginia motor speedway...js say you have to run 75% of the races to qualify for championship. I think alot more guys would stick with it...

[Illtsate32]

I think that could integrate the cars from each series, they could cherry pick their favorite tracks but still having to run 75% of the races to qualify they would still have to run tracks that they dont run that great at also...

[chad1888]

i think it would be a good idea so guys from the south dont have to drive to new york for 2 races. the only negative i can see is that is what makes a series what it is. i was on the road for 10 years before i started my family, but now that i am home and only see a few races a year, with a series race you know you will get to see guys at your local/regional track that you dont get to see. northern guys in the south and southern guys in the north.

[WisWildManFan]

So when they come to a track near you you're good with paying $70 admission a person?

[CageFaraday]

Well as I said I'm more in favor of no national tours, but the inverse of that would be 1 or 2 more national tours, making a total of 4, with "No" points, "No" Tow money, "No" free anything. Tours would schedule against each others dates but maintain a reasonable geographic distance so as not to cannibalize fans/cars from each other. Instead of a points champion, just make driver with most wins the champ and in case of a tie use best record 2nd's, 3rd's, 4th's etc. Then have the 4 series converge for a short SUPER SERIES comprised of the Crown jewels(World, N/S, DTWC, etc.) Resulting in a KING OF DIRT. Something along those lines. Just spit ballin'

[ZERO25]

So when they come to a track near you you're good with paying $70 admission a person?

Where the heck are you paying $70 for a race!

The most Ive ever paid is $45 for a pit pass at Eastbay during Speedweeks!

[bleedblue55]

Where the heck are you paying $70 for a race!

The most Ive ever paid is $45 for a pit pass at Eastbay during Speedweeks!

Never been to (PPMS) Pittsburgh, Pa I take it.

[Dlmfan123]

It’s 70 for a 2 day pit pass at pms. That’s not that bad!!

[WisWildManFan]

If there was only one national tour ticket prices would double

[Josh Bayko]

@DLM123

70 is a little absurd when you consider the track about 45 minutes up 28 is 90 for three days for their big show, and all three days pay a purse.

[TUTY]

Most of the Big 3 day shows are not points races now. USA Nationals in Cedar Lake is 3 days and Night 1 is a points Night and Night 2 and 3 is just show up points. Many of these Big shows are this way.

[Kwd1253]

With a lot of the top talent drivers going to outlaw schedules, do you think there could be a way for the tours to work together? I think they should reduce the number of points races to around 20-25 max, mini tours, and spread out the races through the year to 2-3 races a month. And not schedule against each other. How great would it be if the top 20 drivers in the country could run every race and compete for the title in both series. Talk about bragging rights to take home both titles. You could have the two series champions and then an overall points champion that paid like 250,000 to win. I think that would be awesome...why or why not could this ever happen?...

So true death to late model. Welcome Nascrap late model fully aboard. 20 cars tour, most tracks only do 24-28 cars for main. Means 5% chance for a top regional driver and zero chance for local small guy make it into the event. They going have to pay chit ton payout to keep 20 drivers on all season. Or have chit ton of sponsors, then you see guys spending more because their sponsors what be in top 5 of points. Then that going make late model twice much it cost now or more.


One day yall talk about the cost of racing, then the next dream up something that going make it cost even more.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

PMS’s prices are the worst in dirt racing. Have been since I was a kid. There is no defending their pricing.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Well as I said I'm more in favor of no national tours, but the inverse of that would be 1 or 2 more national tours, making a total of 4, with "No" points, "No" Tow money, "No" free anything. Tours would schedule against each others dates but maintain a reasonable geographic distance so as not to cannibalize fans/cars from each other. Instead of a points champion, just make driver with most wins the champ and in case of a tie use best record 2nd's, 3rd's, 4th's etc. Then have the 4 series converge for a short SUPER SERIES comprised of the Crown jewels(World, N/S, DTWC, etc.) Resulting in a KING OF DIRT. Something along those lines. Just spit ballin'Not a bad idea. But too many regional tours to put a fork in it.

[Illtsate32]

So true death to late model. Welcome Nascrap late model fully aboard. 20 cars tour, most tracks only do 24-28 cars for main. Means 5% chance for a top regional driver and zero chance for local small guy make it into the event. They going have to pay chit ton payout to keep 20 drivers on all season. Or have chit ton of sponsors, then you see guys spending more because their sponsors what be in top 5 of points. Then that going make late model twice much it cost now or more.


One day yall talk about the cost of racing, then the next dream up something that going make it cost even more.

Well we are talking about the best of the best in late model racing not a weekly racer at a local track. And cost wise do their cars magically cost more when the tour guys run together? Do regional guys make the race at the Show Me, Dream, World? I rest my case...

[Kwd1253]

Well we are talking about the best of the best in late model racing not a weekly racer at a local track. And cost wise do their cars magically cost more when the tour guys run together? Do regional guys make the race at the Show Me, Dream, World? I rest my case...

Yes does, its starts at the top and trickle down to regionals to local. Drivers want be compete and want to win. Regional guy see Brandon, Josh winning he ask Mark build a car like theirs. Do know how much money regional got spend to compete against the top national guys? Are that blind, go ask your boy Bobby how much cost just compete as regional against top national teams. There reason no local or small team hasn't won the dream, world and dtwc in a very long time.

[MI Dirt Fan]

I counted 14 non touring "regional" guys in the results of the Show Me... One of them finished 2nd.

[Kwd1253]

I counted 14 non touring "regional" guys in the results of the Show Me... One of them finished 2nd.

Yes most them guys are heavily funded teams or have top equipment. Also, there was only 12? Lucas tour guys. No top 20 national team/racer going follow a tour with knowing they are not going get provisions.

[Illtsate32]

You're getting awfully caviller in your arguments kwd...you spoke about regional or local guys making the event, you get presented evidence of them making the show, now you have changed the narrative to winning the show lol, and ya Bobby is my boy, wasnt all that long ago he was your boy too, so why the flip flopping mr. fickle...

[Illtsate32]

If they would only count a certain number of points nights, if you didnt make the a main one night it wouldnt be the end of the world. You wouldnt need provisions you live to fight another day, better than being out of the points race so you just give up on the tour completely...

[Kwd1253]

You're getting awfully caviller in your arguments kwd...you spoke about regional or local guys making the event, you get presented evidence of them making the show, now you have changed the narrative to winning the show lol, and ya Bobby is my boy, wasnt all that long ago he was your boy too, so why the flip flopping mr. fickle...

First of all never said he was my boy lol. I don’t root for him, but I don’t go around making hate threads about him. Any one on this board can tell you I’m pretty neutral with just about all drivers and teams. I call him out real quick if drives over his head or congratulate him if he wins driving clean. Just like jd, Scott, Hudson, don, josh and ect.

Ok let bring it back just to finish it in top5. What small time team/driver with old equipment 3-4 years old with out new parts finish in top 5 in the last 8 years?

Any drivers go to the Dream, world or major crown jewel has the desire win or finish in the top 5.


Now that you was hoping I would lose my cool and switch topic, lol no. No please explain your theory that top parts from top team/drivers don’t trickle down to regional and local running cost up?

[Josh Bayko]

The tours compete for drivers, fans and tracks... why would they give up any of the three? Domyou think WalMart would enter into an agreement with Amazon to limit the number of days each biz can sell?

Years ago we had Nascar, USAC, ARCA and Nascar Winston West... same basic car each running in a different region (although there was some overlap). It worked. Some drivers ran a few races in each series like Foyt did.

I'd like to see Lucas and WoO pull their rules back to match what the average Saturday night Joe
Lunchbox runs and get back to the days when the locals can run with the big biys when they come to town.

The Lucas/WoO rules aren't any different from weekly super late rules except for the safety stuff and tires. I don't know what you'd "pull back?"

[dirtcrazy4u]

You already have a couple of events that teams could cross over series. I see no reason for a Co sanctioned event. The biggest crossover is the world 100. Out of the last 10 yrs, which series can claim more world victories for there drivers ? I'm sure somebody knows, I would guess it's lucas drivers.