Dirt Late Model racing becomes NASCAR!

[play4kps]

What has always made dirt late model racing the biggest sport nobody knows about was the fact that the Locals could compete with the big names. And fans loved rooting for the guys from their area! And they were loyal to them, when the big names come in, everybody was clinging and hoping for the upset! those days are gone. Nascar always had an elitest type feel to them, a closed group, the average Nascar fan knew nothing about racing and went for the wrecks, They were Dale SR, Dale JR and whomever else is winning. Other than that they could care less, and look at Nascar today! For years DIRT fans always said Nascar was garbage only 8 cars have a chance at winning and Nascar died when Dale SR passed. Everything that made dirt late model racing huge is almost all gone. Local tracks are dropping supers at an alarming rate, or car counts reduced to single digits. 2 touring series sponsored by companies that are wreaking havoc on the sport. 95% of the racers cant afford 8 -10 thousand dollar shock packages, normally given to the front runners of both touring series. and a lot of other things also. I mean you go to the world 100 and there are less and less of a selection of racing shirts, heck 60% of them are Eldora shirts, the drivers used to help fund their race program with shirts and other things. And honestly its almost sickening that people just jump on the Bloomquist, Pierce, Owens and Davenport bandwagon. Big deal, anybody can root for the winner. Pierce has illegal tires, He was still at the World, Scott pulled that shoulder stunt, he was still there, come on there is a full functioning emergency room in the infield, the Greenville hospital story is garbage. Dirt racing is bending over backwards for a select few racers, reguardless of what they do! People gripe and moan about the sport dying, complain about drivers cherry picking, and now when the lower classes have big paydays you got guys like Scott and who knows who else bringing their unlimited budget and promotional parts on their cars to take the big money from them! I mean every time I get on 4m its always what is Bloomquist, Bobby or JD doing. Its like no other driver exist. To show you the state of dirt racing, all you have to do is look at Marlar, they win the WOO championship and hes looking for a ride. I dont know if there is anything to do to fix it! But please guys and girls support your local track and drivers. There is more dirt late model racing than Lucas, WOO and the World and Dream! Im not trying to be a jerk or single out racers, its obvious.

[3 wide]

Well most of what you wrote is correct but the main problem with local tracks is that 90% of them either got a one lane race track or they want to race all night I've preached about it for years and now it is catching up with them if you've got a race track you better put on a show that don't last all night.

[Phatdaddy]

I'm thankful that one aspect of NASCAR/Indycar/F1 that hasn't seeped into DLM racing yet is big multicar teams.

[dirt crow]

Any post over 7, 8 lines I don’t read. No time for it.

[latemodelman]

what has hurt is the money to compete if the cars were 30,000 race ready you would see local tracks have a crap load of late models and car counts around 200 for the World 100. Racers and teams did it

[MI Dirt Fan]

Maybe that gosh darn PRI show with it's must have fancy gadgets and knick knacks everyone just has to have has something to do with it...

[wfofan]

Play4kps you are mostly right...But the world as a whole is so fukked up not many care about the truth or anything else...

[play4kps]

Wfofan, you are 100% right.

[play4kps]

I think the crazy spending started a long time ago. But the real down turn came with the highly funded rocket house car. And then the Longhorn craze, guys were changing chassis like crazy! And then the high dollar shock companies and everything else penetrated the touring series and were giving them to the top runners for promotional purposes and in order for others to be competitive, they were stuck having to spend or finish in the back or loading up before feature! People have this misconception that if crates went away every driver would return to supers, thats no true at all, they would be done or race street stocks!

[chupp n bloomer fan]

It is not on Rocket, Longhorn, Bloomer, etc to control cost. It is on the series/sanctions to keep these guys in check and not let the inmates run the asylum. And that has failed immensely. Racers will do whatever they can to win if they are allowed too. Including shooting theirselves in their foot. So you make a set of rules, you enforce them, and that is that. No matter who you are, tough sh!t. And it isn’t that way.

[ImCryn2]

Have to agree with CNB

[hucktyson]

They should have hired an outsider to control tech not a guy who’s friends with and has beers with all of the series regulars. From what I witnessed the series regulars have zero respect for the tech process

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Yes. Someone as impartial as possible. Not someone tight with half the field. And who will enforce the rule book and have good guys helping him doing the same.

[play4kps]

I understand that but in all fairness to Francis, Lucas had a few crazy rules before him, like the if you dont stop on a caution even if you cause it, you get your spot back, I never understood that rule! Some racers will do whatever it takes to win, as long as its in their budget, some have bigger budgets. But you got to remember the title sponsors will do what it takes to have their name on the winning cars. Example, they are willing to give Pierce, Bloomquist or Davenport a 8 to 10,000 dollar shock package at no cost, hoping to have their name mentioned in victory lane. Its things like that that is taking a toll on the sport, And as long as they are advertising and giving money to Lucas and WOO, nothing will ever change.

[play4kps]

And lets face it, it that was Bloomer or Pierce at Big e, they would have overlooked the Weiss incident and they would have been racing. Eldora probably makes a pretty penny on the Bloomquist and Pierce shirt sales! I would bet 60% of the people buying the Bloomquist, Pierce and Eldora shirts at the world, know little or nothing about the driver and even less about the sport, they just want to be seen wearing the shirt of the winner.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

And lets face it, it that was Bloomer or Pierce at Big e, they would have overlooked the Weiss incident and they would have been racing. Eldora probably makes a pretty penny on the Bloomquist and Pierce shirt sales! I would bet 60% of the people buying the Bloomquist, Pierce and Eldora shirts at the world, know little or nothing about the driver and even less about the sport, they just want to be seen wearing the shirt of the winner.I think the fans of most of these drivers know more than you think about the drivers. And I don’t think they’d overlook it, they didn’t have the choice. It was “brought “ to their attention, they had no choice but to act. It helped Bronson become the 2018 World 100 winner:).

[golddirt]

I have niether of those shirts

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I have niether of those shirtsAliens have landed hanging in the closet.

[MI Dirt Fan]

I would bet 60% of the people buying the Bloomquist, Pierce and Eldora shirts at the world, know little or nothing about the driver and even less about the sport, they just want to be seen wearing the shirt of the winner.
Wtf are you talking about? Why would people spend $25-$30+ for shirts of a driver they know nothing about? If they know nothing about the sport why would they spend $100's of dollars to attend?

[play4kps]

Because sadly the World and Dream are more about partying than racing, this has been the trend for a long time now! I would venture to say 40 to 50% of the crowd is there more for the party than the race!

[Illtsate32]

Attended my first World this year, and for all the people saying how wild and ruly people get, I didnt see it..I seen maybe two people who were noticeably intoxicated but were very friendly in the food line..other than that just a lot of race fans and family. It was too cold to catch a buzz anyway...but for the little latina girl from Michigan said she was a Bloomer fan, she had a good one going lol...

[dirtcrazy4u]

What hurt indy car racing, MONEY. What is killing nascrap, MONEY. If you look at were all these teams are spending it it's in hiring engineers to design every corner of a race car. MONEY IS KILLING SLM RACING ALSO. Rayburn's were simple. Leaf spring cars. During those years you saw some of the best late model racing out there. You saw guys that were able to repair cars in there garages over the weekend. Heck, today you unload the second 100k car and drop the other off at the chassis builder. As soon as it's repaired, or sooner, it goes on the market for sale so you can pay for the new one.

Yea, I saw francis come down on guys, and as soon as he turned his back they reversed what he made a point about. You know the funny thing, they still run mid pack at best.

The motor builders and shock manufactures are raping people. Rumley has been rumored to be in NC, WV and GA in giving Longhorn, Rocket and BWRC direction. Others have done nothing but get one of said cars and copied the darn thing.

So, I ask ! What's hurting SLM racing. MO MONEY please.

[MI Dirt Fan]

I don't see how sitting on here is going to fix anything. Just alot of hot air blowing around.

[NormP]

How about if you can't afford it, you either drop down a class or find a new hobby. Then if late model racing dies from lack of interest, so be it. Problem solved.

[hucktyson]

Norm clowns like you are what killed nascar .... A couple dudes willing to pay whatever it took no matter to prove how big their dongs and how deep their pockets were .... forced out the guys who actually loved the sport , then those guys eventually had enough of spending like that and they quit at quick point no one was left. Just like the tracks kept making them
Fancier and fancier and the ticket prices higher and higher to appease the country club members ... the novelty wore off for the rich people and by the point the real fans were long gone now the tracks buy tarps to hide the unsold seats .... There’s no reason dirt track racing needs to be a money spending contest. Prior to 2015 cars weren’t hiked to the moon and everything was just fine , the device allowed massive hike while controlling rear stear independently and dominated with aero so guys found other ways to get the same aero and allow massive power to be put down. Racing should be about driving and getting your set up right for that track at that moment not whoever can get their rear end the highest and front end the lowest for air to glue the car down ... it makes for small fields and bad racing ... if crazy aero was good for the spot it wouldn’t have been outlawed in the mid 80’s

[play4kps]

The problem is the people on 4m cant even agree to disagree. Norm the idea of watching and letting this sport die and do nothing is pure foolishness! So many on here gauge the success of this sport based on big events and nothing else. A lot of us on here are passionate and love local racing and like the idea of the sport staying strong. And its not about sitting and moaning, its about voices of drivers and fans speaking their mind about saving this great sport!

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Because sadly the World and Dream are more about partying than racing, this has been the trend for a long time now! I would venture to say 40 to 50% of the crowd is there more for the party than the race!While I agree when it’s held in September and the weather is nice, you aren’t far off on amount of people getting tipsy, it doesn’t mean most don’t know about their favorite drivers. And obviously I’m excluding the ones who get fallen down, passed out, puking, wanting to fight drunk. But the ones who are just having a good time can still be passionate about their drivers.

[Stefan2k4]

if crazy aero was good for the spot it wouldn’t have been outlawed in the mid 80’s

Yeah, just like how crazy aero just about killed sprint car racing when some idiots decided to slap a big ole wing on top. It's a good thing the world of outlaws, and others quickly outlawed them and made them remove those monstrosities. ;) Oh, wait a minute! They didn't! In fact they embraced it and nowadays winged sprint cars are more popular than un winged sprint cars! Go figure?

And isn't it interesting that if you look at the suspension and engine in a winged sprint car and how much it's changed over the years, it really hasn't changed much at all. In fact, winged sprint cars overall haven't changed nearly as much as DLMs have. Look what's happened with DLM suspensions since the wedge car was outlawed. On the other the sprint car still has pretty much the same suspension, solid axles and torsion bars. Wonder why? Could it be that when in knee jerk reaction sanctioning bodies implement rules to restrict classes, the engineers immediately go to work find workarounds? Nah, that makes too much sense!

In my opinion, what really killed the wedge cars, was that many people hated them because they thought they were ugly and didn't look like real cars. I personally loved the wedge cars and thought they were a thing of beauty. But, alas, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Anyway, it's interesting, I think, To compare and contrast the difference in the way the late model racing community reacted when aero became a big player in the sport versus the way the Open wheel/ sprint car world reacted. One jumped to attempt eradicate it while the other simply embraced and accepted it. And which is better off today?

[champion24]

Well most of what you wrote is correct but the main problem with local tracks is that 90% of them either got a one lane race track or they want to race all night I've preached about it for years and now it is catching up with them if you've got a race track you better put on a show that don't last all night.

I agree 100% 3wide! I plan on very few true local shows next year. Sorry to say that in some ways! But "racers" want to qualify, race on a no passing track, and have a fastest car show!! And track owners allow it! Then complain about people not being in the stands! Tho the back gate is doing ok, with all the different classes!

[NormP]

Huck clowns like you are why people don’t want to visit 4m much any more. I have no impact on the sport, other than buying a ticket and watching the races. If you think that’s killing the sport maybe you should quit believing your own BS.

You spout off with all the “answers” but apparently no one who actually has any experience with the sport agrees with you. That says more than any long winded rant you type out, no matter how many times you repeat it.

[hucktyson]

Since the Yankees and Red Sox don’t think there should be a salary cap does that mean their shouldn’t be ?? Why are there any rules ??? Why not side boards ? Inerters , titanium and carbon fiber everything with any type of electronics you want ?? Why not that ?? If you can’t afford a million dollar car you have no business racing at the local speedway for 1200 to win right ???

[hucktyson]

Your absolutely right you have no impact at all . You don’t own a race car , you don’t drive a race car so your opinion that everything is great means absolutely nothing.

[TMaCiLLiNi39]

Attended my first World this year, and for all the people saying how wild and ruly people get, I didnt see it..I seen maybe two people who were noticeably intoxicated but were very friendly in the food line..other than that just a lot of race fans and family. It was too cold to catch a buzz anyway...but for the little latina girl from Michigan said she was a Bloomer fan, she had a good one going lol...

Your statement is highly misleading.... this years world 100 was rained out after 1 rainy delayed night to an October day when the Friday night portion was postponed till Saturday morning because of rain and SNOW! the show was all ran in 1 day in freezing temps... this wasn’t a normal 80 degree sun filled World 100 weekend. So to say you didn’t see the wild and craziness... well ofcoarse you didn’t you moron....

[play4kps]

Wow, the name calling on here is unbelievable, Thats why topics that are important to the racing future are always deleted! Huck is right about the 1200 to win statement! And sadly their are people on here that think if Crates went away, their would be more late models, those guys would be done or go to stocks. The people who love this sport voices need to be heard, maybe its pointless. But maybe some track owners or series big wigs read some posts and think it thru. Maybe its wishful thinking. But I for one dont want to sit by and be foolish enough to say nothing or just say its inevitable. There is still a chance that some logic can be brought back in. Slim but a chance. Sadly it all starts with getting the shock companies banners down at both series and more even payouts than these top heavy purses.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yeah, just like how crazy aero just about killed sprint car racing when some idiots decided to slap a big ole wing on top. It's a good thing the world of outlaws, and others quickly outlawed them and made them remove those monstrosities. ;) Oh, wait a minute! They didn't! In fact they embraced it and nowadays winged sprint cars are more popular than un winged sprint cars! Go figure?

And isn't it interesting that if you look at the suspension and engine in a winged sprint car and how much it's changed over the years, it really hasn't changed much at all. In fact, winged sprint cars overall haven't changed nearly as much as DLMs have. Look what's happened with DLM suspensions since the wedge car was outlawed. On the other the sprint car still has pretty much the same suspension, solid axles and torsion bars. Wonder why? Could it be that when in knee jerk reaction sanctioning bodies implement rules to restrict classes, the engineers immediately go to work find workarounds? Nah, that makes too much sense!

In my opinion, what really killed the wedge cars, was that many people hated them because they thought they were ugly and didn't look like real cars. I personally loved the wedge cars and thought they were a thing of beauty. But, alas, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Anyway, it's interesting, I think, To compare and contrast the difference in the way the late model racing community reacted when aero became a big player in the sport versus the way the Open wheel/ sprint car world reacted. One jumped to attempt eradicate it while the other simply embraced and accepted it. And which is better off today?

Wings may be popular, but there are less of them. And the car is extremely primitive.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Huck has plenty of experience with the sport. Much more than a lot of guys you idolize NormP.

[Barbecueboy]

The problem is the people on 4m cant even agree to disagree. Norm the idea of watching and letting this sport die and do nothing is pure foolishness! So many on here gauge the success of this sport based on big events and nothing else. A lot of us on here are passionate and love local racing and like the idea of the sport staying strong. And its not about sitting and moaning, its about voices of drivers and fans speaking their mind about saving this great sport!

The major touring series are a treat to watch but the regional series and the weekly racing are the meat and potatoes of this thing.

I'd rather eat a good pork chop and baked potato than a small plate with sushi and caviar any day......racing won't ever die, maybe just a few forms of it because of stupidity , hard heads and greed.

[Barbecueboy]

Huck has plenty of experience with the sport. Much more than a lot of guys you idolize NormP.

True , but if fans quit coming to watch I don't think huck or anyone else would be racing a slm.

I think huck is a pompous idiot most times but he does have some valid opinions about cost cutting and keeping it sensible.

[Phatdaddy]

I think the sanction bodies are in a bit of a conundrum CnB Fan. If the premier teams don't like a ruling, then they can threaten to go to the other series. I believe that is what triggered the Rumley Rule 3 years ago. It makes it even more complicated to police new cars every year when the manufacturers are title sponsors.

People complain that Nascar is a dictatorship because there is no competing series, and the teams are forced to abide by rules and penaties.
So you either have a multiple series that allow corners to be cut, or you have one supreme series that the fans tend to hate.

Just my opinion.

[play4kps]

And sadly lucas has become nascar. People complain about Francis, we all know the rules are bent mostly for lucas regulars. People on this forum act and believe lucas oil series is god and anything else is irrelevant. Other than the world and dream. I mean we get 6 pages on bloomquist running a crate. Geez.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Since when did 6 replace 4???

[Stefan2k4]

Wings may be popular, but there are less of them. And the car is extremely primitive.

Yes, their primitive in comparison to DLM, That's the point. DLM suspensions have evolved in the way they have to gain back what they lost. The sanctioning bodies took away the wedge bodies, sheet metal and Lexan, and it has been replaced with elaborate trick suspensions and shocks to achieve the same end. So, what was accomplished by killing the wedge cars? The point is that car owners, crew chiefs, car builders, engineers, or drivers will always seek a way to make a car go faster by exploiting whatever advantages are available and aerodynamics are a big part of that. And anytime you regulate or restrict something they will just develop workarounds to the same end. As such rules have unintended consequences of making things more elaborate, complex, and expensive.

The sprintcar/openwheel world didn't try to put the genie back in the bottle and outlaw wings. Probably because sprintcars stop looking like regular cars long before DLMs did. Maybe they made the wiser choice.

[hucktyson]

Your argument is that Any and all rules are pointless ....

[Illtsate32]

Rules making things more expensive is a myth...

[dirtcrazy4u]

I'll state you are so wrong. So if your sitting on a pile of new shocks you just purchased and then find out 6 weeks later that they changed rules making them useless. Then what ? Who is going to buy then ? Everyone talks about bodies. Today they have a body that you can run just about anywhere. What happens if they say flat decks ? No more elephant ear nose pcs. Today's bodies are not cheap.

[Josh Bayko]

Rules making things more expensive is a myth...

Depends entirely on the rules in question. There are definitely rules that have been made that have increased costs.

[Illtsate32]

Well, the "sitting on a pile of new shocks" theory, let that be a lesson learned dont spend outlandishly driving up the price of racing in the first place, those people who are sitting on a pile of new shocks and bodies are not who im concerned about..the middle of the road racer who doesnt own the astronomical shocks and components that should be outlawed however, are...

[Illtsate32]

they change bodies and shocks like changing underwear, the new rules what they must buy will be cheaper, so I dont see how a rule makes it more expensive that argument dont hold water...

[Stefan2k4]

Your argument is that Any and all rules are pointless ....

Where did I say "all" rules are pointless? Strawman argument! I said rules can have unintended consequences. Besides "pointless" has nothing to do with what's being discussed. What's being discuss is how rules impact cost. Rules can be implemented for various reason, some of which have nothing to do with cost. So a rule may have a point but that point may have nothing to do with cost. I contend that the Wedge car was killed mainly because of aesthetics. People didn't like the look and this prejudiced their view.


the new rules what they must buy will be cheaper,

That's a naive and short sighted assumption. It's naive because it doesn't take into account the nature of motorsports and the fact that race teams and engineers always push the limits. As soon as you impose a limit on them they will start to push that limit and find ways around it. The tighter the box the more extreme and elaborate the workarounds will be and that is how an increase in cost can actually be the result of more restrictive rules. The modern DLM and the way the suspension is setup to hike the rear end up in the air is a prime example of this.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yes, their primitive in comparison to DLM, That's the point. DLM suspensions have evolved in the way they have to gain back what they lost. The sanctioning bodies took away the wedge bodies, sheet metal and Lexan, and it has been replaced with elaborate trick suspensions and shocks to achieve the same end. So, what was accomplished by killing the wedge cars? The point is that car owners, crew chiefs, car builders, engineers, or drivers will always seek a way to make a car go faster by exploiting whatever advantages are available and aerodynamics are a big part of that. And anytime you regulate or restrict something they will just develop workarounds to the same end. As such rules have unintended consequences of making things more elaborate, complex, and expensive.

The sprintcar/openwheel world didn't try to put the genie back in the bottle and outlaw wings. Probably because sprintcars stop looking like regular cars long before DLMs did. Maybe they made the wiser choice.

The wedge was reinstated by body creep. Then accentuated by the suspension. The genesis of the problem is the car body changing from what it was 15 years ago.

In some instances, your argument has merit, in this situation, it does not.

[crownman25]

dont forget about the lieing shock/consulting guys that take your money and dont give you all the info and drain your wallet telling you need this and that...