Open Letter to UMP

[rmrc]

Sam

As you know, I've been involved with racing for a long time, 55 years to be exact. This has given me a unique perspective on our sport. Right now, I think that weekly DLM racing is in deep trouble. On the National level, we have allowed the big $$ teams to dictate the rule packages which we race under. As weekly racers, it's no longer possible to compete with the travelling teams, yet we race under the same rules package. You know as well as I do that this is driving racers away from weekly tracks. We simply can't keep going in this direction. We can't restrict engines, there's already too many wide bore and exotic engines out there. We can't regulate shocks, even though they're out of control. We CAN however regulate the bodies. (1) Bring the noses back to 48" with a variation of 2" from side to side. That will also increase the angle of the noses, reducing the wedge effect. (2) The decks should return to flat and level. Use a string line from the back of the hood to the base of the spoiler. The deck must not deviate more than 1" from the string. (3) Reduce the spoiler height to 6". (4) remove the "dish" from the right side doors.

All of the above changes will work to unhook the cars, taking away some of the engine dependence. These things can all be measured quickly, using only a tape measure. There are other places that can be addressed but those 4 simple changes will help. Additionally, maybe it's time to put a group together a group of racers, promoters, owners and builders to discuss where we are headed. I'm talking about weekly guys, not national racers! Let's work together to bring Bob Memmer's vision back to weekly racing. It's time to divorce ourselves from the National touring series. The "Next Level" isn't working out as we thought!

[Kromulous]

Denied...

Makes to much sense.

[kidrock]

Denied...

Makes to much sense.

Aint the truth...………………………………………………………...

[waaac77]

You can make all the rules you want but if they’re not enforced then you got nothing. A committee of well known respectable previous drivers, promoters, owners and builders is the only way to enforce the rules and keep everyone in check.

[CornSmoker]

Put the left rear spring/shock package back "IN FRONT" of the rearend at the same relative angle as the right rear spring/shock. No traction shock on rear end. Get rid of the open windows in the tail wing to help kill the aero package. Shorten up the nose piece at least 12". and last , but not least, a total of 5 spring/shock package total on the car, with no progressive springs. Then and only then will DLM racing survive at weekly race tracks. BUT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Dumbass Richie ruined it after the Davenport year, and the Wedding Photographer and the spineless WoO director have no balls to get DLM racing back on track.

[Illtsate32]

Yes! Good point about the nose they got the nose angle down and the a** up for the deck to catch all the air, and the shocks ya idk horse is out of the barn but there are things to do like was said to cut back on the traction and make engines and shocks less effective, they arent twisting all these bodies up for looks thats for sure...

[Kromulous]

Just cutting the spoiler to 6" would make a healthy impact.

Add in a max spoiler angle, around 70* from horizontal, not the decking, would also further that impact.

[Krooser]

Add 100lbs to cars with wide bore engines and have a spec shock package.

[MittenMadman]

Sounds great but it’ll never happen. Piss off to many people that have the money and money talks.

[rmrc]

That was one of my points, the sanctioning bodies are allowing 10-12 teams make the rules. That HAS to change.

[IZZOJR16]

Super Late Models have evolved way past weekly shows.

[IZZOJR16]

No matter what rules you make teams will find a way to exploit the rules and run up the cost of everything. Its the nature of the beast. Money will always = speed. Thats the purpose of racing, to be the fastest.

[racincowboy02]

I don't think you will see weekly super racing around much longer even at the tracks you see them out now unless they are going to pay anywhere between 5-7500 to win weekly

[dirtcrazy4u]

I like all this talk about teams. The manufacturer puts out the product and if it is a good product. Well, reach deep into those pockets boys. And to be competitive what are teams suppose to do ? Sure some guys have said no I am not going to by a wide bore motor, or I'm not going to buy that new chassis. Well the guys that do say great. Less competition for me. You can't change the rules. You would make so much equipment obsolete, then what ? Fans want to see the top guys race, period, and those guys are going to spend what it takes. As a fan, and if you implement all the changes in this topic. Are you going to sit in the stands and watch them ? Crate racing draws a huge fan base huh. Me personally I wish woo, better yet, wrg would go away, but we all understand that is not going to happen. Tony Stewart's new Ford motor in sprint car racing, they get the bugs worked out and the money teams are going to have to spend will be outrageous. Or run for a top 10 instead of a top 5. Boy, I can't wait.

[fastford]

unfortunately , i agree with dirtcrazy , also in reference to the original post , you can take all the aero away you want to , BUT , by not limiting shocks , springs and there placement , cubic dollars will still have an advantage , and im not jealous of this , what does irritate me is rules that limit my using my brain to find an advantage and that being taken away , ie: rumley device...........JMO......

[IAMN21]

Well said in the original post I have attended dirt tracks for 45 years and for the last few years you can watch the steady decline of your local racers and tracks. Probably already gone too far to fix and it is sad that the local promoters cant get together and provide and enforce a rules package that would allow DLM as well as other classes to flourish. But we all know Big Money Rules always has and always will.

[Krooser]

I was at one of the very early promoters meetings Bob Memmer had when he was starting UMP.

There were guys that stood up and told everyone that you would never get two tracks to run the same rules much less form an alliance of promoters to agree on common rules. But it happened.

All it will take for DLM racing to change is one man with the foresight and commitment that Memmer had... it can be done.

[Kromulous]

The problem that some of you are not seeing is this, once the core wood in the middle of the Tree is dead, the Tree is going to die sooner or later...

What i mean is this, its the Weekly guys that buy all these parts, and pay to race etc. We support these companies with our money. The Top Teams use Sponsor money, well when the Sponsors markets begin to decline because you ran off all your paying Customers you begin the rot.

SLM racing is on a cusp of it right now as i see it. We can still afford to race weekly, but its almost lost. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Currently we are probably selling the SLM and going to a Mod, maybe one more year. Its me and my Brothers that own the Team, and me personally i don't want to be the last man holding the Bag, meaning we better sell out before everyone else does, then your market value hits the skids.

IMHO thou, once you start to out price your market, your doomed. Nascar did the same thing in the 90's, maybe earlier. You look at modern car sales now, same thing, Ford etc is out pricing their market, the backlash will be big, sooner or later.

I also believe that a simple spoiler adjustment, and some simple Aero adjustments could fend off this decline at least for a few years.

[roughride]

I feel this is so easy to get back on the right track. Just the body rules alone would be a great start. These cars are nothing short of a modern day wedge. These rules would not even be noticeable from the stands. When did the dishing out of the decking get so out of control anyway? Lift the noses of the ground. Make the right and left door panels be the same height. Remove an inch or 2 off the spoiler and no one will even be able to tell from the stands. The UMP rules were great for some time, what happened?

[play4kps]

It all starts with the lack of support for weekly racing! I think what really made dirt late model racing such a terrific and interesting sport was to watch the track locals race and sometimes beat the big names when they come in. When that went away, the sport lost a lot of charm. Unfortunately the driving force of companies that are destroying the sport are the ones funding it at the touring series level. Lucas oil series and World of Outlaws and Dirt on dirt also. A lot of people gauge the sport on attendance at big races only, thats a huge problem.

[kazual]

Have the local, non-touring teams unite and tell UMP, WOO, and LOLMDS they will not run touring or marqueee events under the current set of rules that handicap them. If the sanctions knew their showcase races were only going to green flag 12-15 cars it would cause higher ups to listen. And I also believe in the Easter Bunny, The Great Pumpkin, and Bigfoot.

[GRT62]

a 2'x2' opening in the nose piece would kill 95% of the aero advantage we are seeing now days.

[hotshoe65s]

The body rules, in my opinion, are not the area to focus. Anyone can build a body as exotic as the next guy for about the same amount of money. Keep the body rules simple. I work in NASCAR and see how body rules can get out of hand. Here is what they can do to reduce costs.
The only new body rules that would be easy to regulate would be an overall length rule to reduce the nose length, overall width, no decking dish, etc. Those are quick, easy to check, and still allow some creativity.
Other than body rules:
Maximum of 5 springs on the car. No bumpstops. Maximum of 1 full spring rubber per corner. By doing all that you reduce a guys ability to manipulate the aero platform. Yeah you can try to coilbind the RF, but that is very load dependent and will be difficult to do with ever changing track conditions.
No triple or 4 way adjustable shocks.
No traction shock.
Spring in front of the LR axle tube would be a possible way to reduce grip.
Keep going with the tire rules limiting the number or tires used per event.
Increase the total weight of the cars by 50 Lb or so to discourage trying to buy lightweight parts.

At the end of the day all of that will reduce the overall grip of the car and reduce the need for data acquisition and spring smashers. But to get back where local guys can compete and afford to race supers you need to address the engine rules.
I think if you have all sanctioning bodies agree on engine rules, then set an effective date, you could get back to a realistic engine cost.
Have a group determine the rules. Pick a date a year or two from now and say after that date these rules are in effect. So use the engines up now. After that date you can't run them anymore. Yes that will leave guys with expensive motors, but the costs of that are going to equal out after one or two engine rebuilds or replacements for expensive motors. It sucks to stick people with engines, but the sport will be better off in a few years due to it. By giving them a year or two to use up their engine will allow them to get use out of them first.

[Josh Bayko]

I've posted before what I'd do with the bodies.

Nose must be mounted straight and symmetrical.
Ears can be no more than 1" higher than the filler and must be equal on both sides.
Deck must be flat with no rake.
Sides must be equal height on both sides.
Sails must be filled in. You can still have windows if you want, but the gotta be covered with Lexan.
Roof must also be mounted flat with no rake.

All of this would help slow the cars down some. Tech would be a breeze. All you'd need to enforce is a level and a tape measure. It would also make the guys who design wraps' lives a lot easier.

[rmrc]

I've asked Sam Driggers from UMP to read these posts, most are in agreement that bodies are a good place to start. Keep the posts and ideas coming.

[Bigdirtfan]

Ump needs to save super dirt late model racing again. Kazual is right, new and drastically different rules then what lucas and woo are running. Ump is still the sanction for eldora speedway, that means they still have the power. Id like to see some steps taken to make the weekly national championship points actually go to a weekly driver as well.

[CIRF]

I've posted before what I'd do with the bodies.

Nose must be mounted straight and symmetrical.
Ears can be no more than 1" higher than the filler and must be equal on both sides.
Deck must be flat with no rake.
Sides must be equal height on both sides.
Sails must be filled in. You can still have windows if you want, but the gotta be covered with Lexan.
Roof must also be mounted flat with no rake.

All of this would help slow the cars down some. Tech would be a breeze. All you'd need to enforce is a level and a tape measure. It would also make the guys who design wraps' lives a lot easier.

Spot on post right here, folks. The only things I would add is the tread width must be the identical front and rear and the four wheels must measure out square. Still only need a tape measure to do that.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Spot on post right here, folks. The only things I would add is the tread width must be the identical front and rear and the four wheels must measure out square. Still only need a tape measure to do that.

You think so SURF????? :)

[CIRF]

You think so SURF????? :)

Are you pickin' on me again, Clay?! I'm gonna' sic power boy on you if you're not nice to me!!

[hotshoe65s]

Spot on post right here, folks. The only things I would add is the tread width must be the identical front and rear and the four wheels must measure out square. Still only need a tape measure to do that.

That's an absolutely terrible idea. That's the same path Nascar took and it has been nothing but a disaster. DirtCar is right across the street from NASCAR's Tech center. they should walk over there and see how many millions and millions of dollars have been spent trying to monitor tread width, cambers, and wheel center locations

[RaceEngineer]

Spring in front of axle does nothing. A lot of other good ideas here though.

[Josh Bayko]

Spot on post right here, folks. The only things I would add is the tread width must be the identical front and rear and the four wheels must measure out square. Still only need a tape measure to do that.

I tend to think the body rules I proposed would reign a lot of the wild track width differences in all by itself.

I’m not really a fan of outlawing suspension pieces. The costs associated with replacing that stuff far outweighs the cost of new sheet metal and noses.

[CIRF]

I readily admit that it's been over a decade and a half since I've been involved with a dirt late model and that makes me totally ignorant of how things are on the cars today, I have no illusions about that. However, it seems like it would be a rather simple procedure to determine whether the front tread width is the same and is in line with the rear. But then again, I've been out of the loop for so long that.............

[TackyTracker]

Hopefully people that read this realize that it has to change.. I'm not an engineer,driver,owner,sponsor or promoter but a FAN that wants to keep going and PAYING..

FIX IT

[grt74]

racing cost is up and pay out is down (weekly) until thats fixed i don't see a fix, and it is costing track owners more to run too, one of the biggest issues i see, several different classes, all we need is supers, mods-open wheels, street, and 4 cylinders, its ok to go down in a class-its still racing

[dirtcrazy4u]

Aero is by far the cheapest way out. By changing bodies it opens up a hole new set of problems. The downforce that would be taken away would create a situation where you mite as well toss the set up book out the window. You've now made teams spend more money to try to come up with some other way to gain that advantage back. You've got guys in lucas and wrg that see exactly what's going on. Weekly SLM racing will never be what it was. Local teams are picking and choosing were they want to run. Many teams are going that route today. Do I have the answer, NO and neither does anyone else.

[RaceEngineer]

Aero is by far the cheapest way out. By changing bodies it opens up a hole new set of problems. The downforce that would be taken away would create a situation where you mite as well toss the set up book out the window. You've now made teams spend more money to try to come up with some other way to gain that advantage back. You've got guys in lucas and wrg that see exactly what's going on. Weekly SLM racing will never be what it was. Local teams are picking and choosing were they want to run. Many teams are going that route today. Do I have the answer, NO and neither does anyone else.Absolutely nothing wrong with tossing the setup book out the window. Taking tons of grip away is the point. Your feared result is the goal. We want to hit the reset button and lower the ceiling of how much traction is possible. You think setups stayed the same when UMP took the humper tires and wedge bodies away? Did it not open the gates for the Golden Age?

[EvelB7]

They need to fix the bodies... Aero grip is easy and cheap, yes; however it creates poor racing. The best races are created when you have less grip and are forced to lift the gas. It comes down to who can a)drive into the corner deeper or b) get back to the throttle first. Very little of throttle time with current down force and a bigger issue is that the car is so dependent on the air you 'stall out' or get a severe push when you get close to someone.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Ok, so I'm steve francis. I say 2019 we bring a spec shock to the RF and LR, Monroe Matic LOL,. Toss out your shock package, you get to the track and you come on over to the lucas trailer and I'll hand you the shocks you need to bolt on. WRG would be elated to hear that. The WoO would be saying, told you so. Either side doesn't want to stick there neck out in fear of something like that happening. O, by the way, remember I'm SF. I win the lucas 2019 title and tell all. I'm not washed up yet. :) :) :)

[RaceEngineer]

Ok, so I'm steve francis. I say 2019 we bring a spec shock to the RF and LR, Monroe Matic LOL,. Toss out your shock package, you get to the track and you come on over to the lucas trailer and I'll hand you the shocks you need to bolt on. WRG would be elated to hear that. The WoO would be saying, told you so. Either side doesn't want to stick there neck out in fear of something like that happening. O, by the way, remember I'm SF. I win the lucas 2019 title and tell all. I'm not washed up yet. :) :) :)No one is suggesting that option. Shocks are not really an issue anyway. You can still win with ones you bought 8 years ago. However, a car from 4 years ago needs completely rebuilt to put a new decking in it.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Yea but if you get a RF shock on that doesn't pin the nose down and a LR that raises the corner up into the air I think it would make a huge difference. Same shocks 8 yrs ? There only a body today, guys are revalving them over and over. Every part today is replaceable. My Monroe matics can do it. :)

[RaceEngineer]

Yea but if you get a RF shock on that doesn't pin the nose down and a LR that raises the corner up into the air I think it would make a huge difference. Same shocks 8 yrs ? There only a body today, guys are revalving them over and over. Every part today is replaceable. My Monroe matics can do it. :)Revalving the shock is cheap. The guys crying about shock costs jump from brand to brand 3 times a year.The car attitude genie is out of the bottle. No shock rules will completely eliminate that.

[Kromulous]

6" Spoiler.

No Bump stops, and only one spring rubber per wheel.

6 springs max, no dual springs per corner.

You would cripple the current SLMs.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

6" Spoiler.

No Bump stops, and only one spring rubber per wheel.

6 springs max, no dual springs per corner.

You would cripple the current SLMs.

I hate suspension rules. Tech struggles with a tape measure. The guy running second every week will have his bump inside his shock. Maybe they will catch the winner.

[rmrc]

Bumps inside the shocks....that's why I didn't suggest trying to put the horse back in the barn with shock rules. The worst rules are the ones that you can't enforce.

[Kromulous]

Yeah, talk about unintended consequences, i hadn't considered bumps inside the shocks. A lot harder than you think to keep these cars in check concerning rules i guess.

[Illtsate32]

Enforce the track width rule on rf, the reason they can pin the rf down with these shocks is because they got the rf stuck out a mile further than they did 5 years ago..suck the rf back in they wont have the clearance to pin the rf on the ground anymore...

[Fully Torqued]

Make the nose smaller. Deck should be flat. No carving out the sail panel. No fancy shocks or parts such as progressive springs. Chain the left rear down so it can only extend 2 inches above ride height. Have 8-10 inch tires. Have a rear percentage rule. That'll make it cheaper, simple, easy, done. Now tell me all about how people with money will find a way around it. If they actually tech cars and keep an eye on things, it should be easy.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Make the nose smaller. Deck should be flat. No carving out the sail panel. No fancy shocks or parts such as progressive springs. Chain the left rear down so it can only extend 2 inches above ride height. Have 8-10 inch tires. Have a rear percentage rule. That'll make it cheaper, simple, easy, done. Now tell me all about how people with money will find a way around it. If they actually tech cars and keep an eye on things, it should be easy.

The car would be slower than a Hornet. They couldn't use the throttle.

[Fully Torqued]

The car would be slower than a Hornet. They couldn't use the throttle.Not at all. Maybe they couldn't use the throttle on a slick track with a Vic Hill engine. But isn't that the point? I suppose they could keep the 12 inch tires.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Not at all. Maybe they couldn't use the throttle on a slick track with a Vic Hill engine. But isn't that the point? I suppose they could keep the 12 inch tires.

I would say there is no point in having 900 horsepower motors if all they wind up doing is feather footing and spinning tires.

I wish things had just stayed the same as they were in the mid and late 1970's when most cars were home made.

But when progress is made I can't see not using it. Those good old days are gone.

[Fully Torqued]

We need to bring short track racing back by making it cheaper and easier for people to compete, but we gotta have the ridiculously fast cars. How do we fix this? The answer has gotta be around here somewhere. It's a scooby doo mystery! Hmmmmmm?..........

[Fully Torqued]

I would say there is no point in having 900 horsepower motors if all they wind up doing is feather footing and spinning tires.I wish things had just stayed the same as they were in the mid and late 1970's when most cars were home made. But when progress is made I can't see not using it. Those good old days are gone.And that's why I have no hope for the future of short track racing. It could be so simple and easy to fix, but almost no one wants to do it.

[RaceEngineer]

I would say there is no point in having 900 horsepower motors if all they wind up doing is feather footing and spinning tires.I wish things had just stayed the same as they were in the mid and late 1970's when most cars were home made. But when progress is made I can't see not using it. Those good old days are gone.That would be infinitely more interesting than 20 crates just holding it to the floor. At least for me.

[Illtsate32]

^^^ that's why the crate class is a bust because with the high dollar shocks n suspensions those cars are stuck like glue and whoever has the best cheated up motor they run away with it...Aaron Heck at tri city few years back, in lm crate class but the pitch of his engine sounded twice as crisp as anyone elses, I'm not saying he was cheating but he looked like Scott Bloomquist running against guys in their first year running a pro 4..was he really that much better driver than everone else...

[fryefan]

Crate late model racing is the future of weekly racing. The process of that occurring started several years ago.

[Bubstr]

I would say there is no point in having 900 horsepower motors if all they wind up doing is feather footing and spinning tires.

I wish things had just stayed the same as they were in the mid and late 1970's when most cars were home made.

But when progress is made I can't see not using it. Those good old days are gone.

When your right, your right. Better yet, go back to the 50s. $400 race cars. I could To go the Junk yard and pick up 90% of it.

[dirty-white-boy]

UMP the way it was designed died the day Bob died.
Just like Nascar died that fateful day at Daytona in 2001....

[KONG]

Just some info. Pierce has probably won 90% of his race with small bore engines. Meaning non wide bore engines

[dirty-white-boy]

Just some info. Pierce has probably won 90% of his race with small bore engines. Meaning non wide bore engines

So he's lost 100% of his races to cars with wide bore then right? LOL

[ImCryn2]

So he's lost 100% of his races to cars with wide bore then right? LOL

DWB is going to tell the engine builder he's wrong. I'll get the popcorn.

[Bubstr]

Just some info. Pierce has probably won 90% of his race with small bore engines. Meaning non wide bore engines

I believe your right even though I didn't get to but one race last year, because of health. The thing is he gave up a lot of starting positions, that a lot of drivers wouldn't want to give up. Early in the night, is when you can put that power down. Look how many times, he struggled, just to get a starting spot in the A main.

[let-r-eat]

Body rules as suggested above. Get rid of the body shape manipulation. There is nothing wrong with straight/square. I'd make em run a punch 55 tire to qualify on or something of that nature. The qualifying tires would last forever.

[lazermod3]

There are a-lot of good ideas on this topic,that have been brought forward.

But here is the bottom line!The product manufacture controls the racing group,(WITH THEIR ALMIGHTY DOLLAR,)

Don't look for any changes to help out the weekly racer.

[Kromulous]

Nailed it !!

[Clayton_Wetter]

Let's do it again next week!!!!

[buster83]

you really want to see who can yell the loudest raise rear deck spoiler to 9 inches.