Late Model Haves vs Have Nots

[Returning to Dirt]

https://insidedirtracing.com/turn-2-blog-late-model-haves-vs-have-nots/

Has dirt racing become a contest of the Haves vs the Have Nots and other topics discussed here.

[fastford]

good and accurate artical IMO , only thing is the statement about the sport always being this way for last 20 years , 20 years ago , a " have not" with a little equipment and some fab skills could look at an advantage the " haves" had and go home and duplicate it themselves and be competitive , thats way harder to do today.........

[Fully Torqued]

This isn't the haves vs the have nots. This is the life vs death of short track racing. Don't worry, us little have nots are leaving slowly one by one. The core problem here is when they were talking about keeping up with innovations whether it's a late model or street stock. If they don't stop the innovation and constant changes, it's going to continue to get more expensive. ESPECIALLY IN STREET STOCKS! NO NEW INNOVATIONS! NONE! Your next generation of racers are finding better things to do after they find out what a stupid street stock costs. So they lose interest. Where are they going to stop this? Why do you all think the cars must be faster and more complicated than the year before? Fine, have it your way. Enjoy watching your sport die. Eventually this will hurt Woo, Ump, Lucas Oil and all the others. Karma will catch up eventually.

[james777777]

FT: How are you suppose to get better or gain an edge on your competition if you can't change or try anything new?!

[Fully Torqued]

FT: How are you suppose to get better or gain an edge on your competition if you can't change or try anything new?! I don't know, do a good job preparing your car and a good job driving. Won't be able to get a huge advantage. You're gonna have to work for it. What do you think I meant? They dictate what stagger, springs and shock rates you can run? Plus the "haves" don't have an "edge" with the current system. The have nots don't have a chance. If you aren't buying a new car every 1-2 years, you might as well quit.

[ZERO25]

So, I assume you guys complaining of costs and technology, still have bag phones and flip phones?

[fastford]

wish i still had my old flip phone , was way less trouble and less expensive than this brick im toting around now , kind of like my race car from 15 yrs ago.....lol.....

[ZERO25]

wish i still had my old flip phone , was way less trouble and less expensive than this brick im toting around now , kind of like my race car from 15 yrs ago.....lol.....

Actually my first bag phone was $1200, almost twice as much as my newest iPhone......and a whole lot less features!

Google Maps is a godsend for those of us that drive a lot in our jobs!Find friends lets you keep up with your familys location!

And where would we be without Race Monitor and dod apps? lol

[kidrock]

Yeah I wish I had my old Razor phone back lol

Technology usually makes things more expensive so, they are going to have to figure out how to manage that if the can.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So, I assume you guys complaining of costs and technology, still have bag phones and flip phones?

Apples and oranges. Comparing life to sport. Comparing progress that lowers cost with progress that increases it.

[LMNED10]

This article is what dirt late model racing has turned into, it is getting so expensive to run the big tours and that is why you are seeing more and more names starting to run the regional tours, not as many races, not as much traveling and you have a few weeks off during the season.

[Illtsate32]

I think we've heard ways to make thung better, but there's the ones who are rich and don't mind buying sucess and they as in life unfortunately are the ones with the lobbying power. So I don't know a solution but lm racing is becoming like Nascar extremely fast where you have 3 drivers that win 90% of the races...and it will die...

[ZERO25]

Apples and oranges. Comparing life to sport. Comparing progress that lowers cost with progress that increases it.


Not really......new technology is very expensive and then gradually decreases as sales increase.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Not really......new technology is very expensive and then gradually decreases as sales increase.You are correct in that eventually the price comes down. But then there’s a better mouse trap and the cycle of spending more never ends.

[Fully Torqued]

Chupp N Bloomer that is exactly what I'm trying to say. About the time you've caught up and bought a good used car 1-4 years old, they've already built a better mousetrap. How many perfectly good cars are almost worthless or obsolete because it's constantly changing? This is the whole problem. What fun is it if you can't go racing and know that you have a chance to win? Even if it's a very small chance? At that point you're there to fill the field and make the front runners look good. Also when it's constantly changing, a new car devalues VERY quickly. So you buy a new car and 2-4 years later it's worth 25% of what it was new, even if it's in excellent condition.

[kidrock]

Not really......new technology is very expensive and then gradually decreases as sales increase.

That might be right but, just like you said initially the cost is high and with new technology it advances so, fast if you don't keep up you are left behind so, that cost more to stay competitive. As that keeps happening more and more are going to be getting out because, of the cost but, that's just my opinion.

[Fully Torqued]

I have no animosity towards the engineers and the rich involved in racing. Most of them are ok people. I just want large car counts and the fate of the races in the hands of the drivers and the people turning the screw jacks. Doesn't matter if you're a blue collar stiff or you're a millionaire.

[RW57]

Street stocks that cost 30 to 40 grand is insane late models 100 grand race ready it's insane and can't go on much longer. Yes I was one of those racers who could look at something and make it did my own engines chassis everything not nowadays your pissing in the wind trying to do that it's gone too far I not sure if it can be saved.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Computers and TV are dirt cheap. My first desktop computer was not top of the line and you can't spend what it cost even in today's dollars. Same for my first widescreen TV.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If a new roller was $18500 in 1995, it should be $31000 with inflation.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Chupp N Bloomer that is exactly what I'm trying to say. About the time you've caught up and bought a good used car 1-4 years old, they've already built a better mousetrap. How many perfectly good cars are almost worthless or obsolete because it's constantly changing? This is the whole problem. What fun is it if you can't go racing and know that you have a chance to win? Even if it's a very small chance? At that point you're there to fill the field and make the front runners look good. Also when it's constantly changing, a new car devalues VERY quickly. So you buy a new car and 2-4 years later it's worth 25% of what it was new, even if it's in excellent condition.

Fire up the smoke wrench and make that old car new again.

[oregonracer]

I love all the "engineers are the problem" claims, so if you are an engineer, understand mechanical systems, or approach racing with a problem solving mentality you are killing the sport. There have been smart people making cars faster since day one, don't get caught up on titles.

[formercrewguy]

I've been hearing this for 40 yrs. There are haves and have nots in ANY competitive sport. Heck, in life in general! My perspective nowadays is that racing as a hobby is dying off. I say this because as 1 example, on the west coast(Ca. especially) 2 of the oldest tracks I am most familiar with, Santa Maria and Bakersfield, as of this year have dropped Super Lates completely. The car counts were in single digits. I can't blame them. It's not just supers that are dwindling, but all classes. Perhaps it's just that kids these days don't have the interest. I don't know.

[Illtsate32]

I don't think it can be done, but I'd like racing to be if you are the most talented driver on the track you can shine and still win races. Not run 5th because you don't have the money to compete with the guy out spending you.

[ZERO25]

If a new roller was $18500 in 1995, it should be $31000 with inflation.

My business partner and I sat down with Barry and Bloomer at a regional super race in 1995, and we were told $52k would buy a car just like Bloomers.

[dirtcrazy4u]

You better talk to mark richards. According to many sources inside rocket, the team blue #1 car has years of racing on it. I have a feeling the zero is the same way. Some drivers just hammer on chit and some teams think a new this or new that will solve the problem.

[fastford]

Fire up the smoke wrench and make that old car new again.

yep , we just turned an older off brand chassis into a up to date name brand one , problem is , there is not many people left that want to , or can do this , they either have the funds to go by one or they find something else to do . My dad was a he!! of a machinist and a great back yard engineer , and us building our own stuff and winning races with it was utopia for us , I realize its a lot harder to do this now , but not impossible....JMO....

[james777777]

Per the new DoD article on Rumley, we now have a well funded, manufacturer-backed team dedicated to experimenting and trying new things.

[RaceEngineer]

Per the new DoD article on Rumley, we now have a well funded, manufacturer-backed team dedicated to experimenting and trying new things.You mean like all the big teams that test constantly? Testing during a race is not a very good way to test. The track condition changes constantly.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

My business partner and I sat down with Barry and Bloomer at a regional super race in 1995, and we were told $52k would buy a car just like Bloomers.

Turn key? Sounds about right. I am pretty sure a new GRT roller was near what I posted.

[speedyshocks]

https://imgur.com/a/X398X5G

2003 flyer from masters.....

[Krooser]

I love all the "engineers are the problem" claims, so if you are an engineer, understand mechanical systems, or approach racing with a problem solving mentality you are killing the sport. There have been smart people making cars faster since day one, don't get caught up on titles.

99% of the racers can't afford the technology...that's the problem. Keep it simple....

[ZERO25]

Turn key? Sounds about right. I am pretty sure a new GRT roller was near what I posted.

Yep.....if I remember correctly, it also included the carbon fiber brake system they were using.

[Zonks32x]

Here's an idea a little off the beaten path. The have nots could run wider tires weekly, and should also be allowed to do so at touring events as well. Give them an extra 1-2" of rear spoiler as well. That would allow them to put more of the hp they do have to the ground.



I know you need a dividing line. How about anyone who earned under 25k in winnings, the year before, and is not committed to running any national or regional tour full- time.

[Brian Gray]

The problem with racing is no different than the problems of 5he world. No one wants to do the work and everyone wants to complain. Where is this technology people are crying about? A pull down rig? A shock Dyno? Wind tunnels? I’ve been away too long from this board I guess

[hillracermanb2j7]

If you take away the shock behind and limit all the springs and bump stops and everything they are doing now the engineers are not gonna go away. If anything they will be used more so the cars will go faster. Just an example look at how many rules are in asphalt racing and how many people they have hired to go the fastest. Is the expense gotten out of hand yes it has. Is there a good easy answer? No there isnt. Sorry there if there are grammar issues and no paragraphs.

[RaceEngineer]

Here's an idea a little off the beaten path. The have nots could run wider tires weekly, and should also be allowed to do so at touring events as well. Give them an extra 1-2" of rear spoiler as well. That would allow them to put more of the hp they do have to the ground.I know you need a dividing line. How about anyone who earned under 25k in winnings, the year before, and is not committed to running any national or regional tour full- time.We don't need to add traction.

[Zonks32x]

We don't need to add traction.

Fair enough...I'll gladly defer to those of you that are in the fray working on these cars on a regular basis.

[Brian Gray]

If you take away the shock behind and limit all the springs and bump stops and everything they are doing now the engineers are not gonna go away. If anything they will be used more so the cars will go faster. Just an example look at how many rules are in asphalt racing and how many people they have hired to go the fastest. Is the expense gotten out of hand yes it has. Is there a good easy answer? No there isnt. Sorry there if there are grammar issues and no paragraphs.

Sprint cars have the fewest rules I’ve ever seen and are 1/2 the cost of touring late models. If these tracks would simply enforce the rules that would be a great improvement.

[fastford]

Here's an idea a little off the beaten path. The have nots could run wider tires weekly, and should also be allowed to do so at touring events as well. Give them an extra 1-2" of rear spoiler as well. That would allow them to put more of the hp they do have to the ground.



I know you need a dividing line. How about anyone who earned under 25k in winnings, the year before, and is not committed to running any national or regional tour full- time.

i like this idea , if we go by my earnings last year , i would get to run tires 2 feet wide....lol....

[fastford]

If you take away the shock behind and limit all the springs and bump stops and everything they are doing now the engineers are not gonna go away. If anything they will be used more so the cars will go faster. Just an example look at how many rules are in asphalt racing and how many people they have hired to go the fastest. Is the expense gotten out of hand yes it has. Is there a good easy answer? No there isnt. Sorry there if there are grammar issues and no paragraphs.

most sensible post on thread and the fact..........

[Illtsate32]

Agree to an extent but if you dumb down the shocks take away bumps and all the reasons for data acquisition how would engineers become more involed and people spend more money?

[RaceEngineer]

Agree to an extent but if you dumb down the shocks take away bumps and all the reasons for data acquisition how would engineers become more involed and people spend more money?Explain dumb down the shocks? What would you limit, exactly?How do $20 pieces of rubber inflate costs?The goals for the suspension remain the same regardless of the rules. You can't run a bumpstop? Now you need an engineer to help you build the correct torsional rate into your upper coilover mount so that you can coil bind a spring, but have the correct ride rate after that.

[kidrock]

If you take away the shock behind and limit all the springs and bump stops and everything they are doing now the engineers are not gonna go away. If anything they will be used more so the cars will go faster. Just an example look at how many rules are in asphalt racing and how many people they have hired to go the fastest. Is the expense gotten out of hand yes it has. Is there a good easy answer? No there isnt. Sorry there if there are grammar issues and no paragraphs.

This isn't grammar class so, don't worry about that. Do you make good points yes you do and that's more important. like fastford said it's a sensible post.

[fastford]

Explain dumb down the shocks? What would you limit, exactly?How do $20 pieces of rubber inflate costs?The goals for the suspension remain the same regardless of the rules. You can't run a bumpstop? Now you need an engineer to help you build the correct torsional rate into your upper coilover mount so that you can coil bind a spring, but have the correct ride rate after that.

yep , and this new open wheel class that there doing here only allows a 3 link rear with solid bars , springs on top housing and every thing welded solid on rear , i have thought of 20 ways to gain an advantage , some rule book boarder line , but , im kinda old school , if the book dont say i cant do it , then its good , but my point is , even with all these rules , racers are still gone find loo-polls .........

[hillracermanb2j7]

ILLSTATE 32. They will look at front end geometry, anything that reduces drag on the tires. Spring companies will start building springs that load differently. Honestly the national and regional series need to stick to the rules they have now and say these are the rules if you are caught doing anything else your out. If you all remember hav-a-Tampa had a motor rule years ago smaller motors could way less. I think it was 50 pounds but not a 100% on that. And your biggest investment in shocks is the initial big cost. And who doesnt have double adjustable shocks now. This is all just my opinion anyways so take it has you want.