Zeta Performance

[ZERO25]

Anyone on here had any experience with them? The car in the pic is from my area and is basically a "homemade" car.He paid Zeta approx. $4,000 for 2 days of testing and has been fast right outa the box.

https://zetapvt.com/4-7-post-shaker-testing-vehicle-and-component-development/pull-down-rig-services/

[Kromulous]

I know these Pull Down Rigs are really big now, overall i would say its worth the expense if the data they have is current and known to be fast. IMHO its all about the data, you can pull down a car all day, but if you dont know what kind of numbers you need to be seeing its pretty much useless.

The Shaker rigs are just amazing.

Although, my Intel on CBR is they use them all the time to "wear" in a new chassis, and it doesn't seem to work for them LOL. Again, i guess its the data that is missing, the winning data.

[billetbirdcage]

I know these Pull Down Rigs are really big now, overall i would say its worth the expense if the data they have is current and known to be fast. IMHO its all about the data, you can pull down a car all day, but if you dont know what kind of numbers you need to be seeing its pretty much useless.



Just my opinion,

First you need that telemetry data on what your car is actually doing. There is no point in using known good numbers on the pull down if you car isn't getting or won't those travels (to a degree because you can still get camber gains, wheel base changes, toe changes and etc on a pull down without exact travel data from the telemetry and see things that are off).

Example: Say a known winning set up is 2400# on RF at 4" and you can copy the 1 thru 4" exactly but for some reason your car will never travel to that 4" number because it has a lower COG, different %'s or a variety of other reasons, that winning pull down set up does you no good because that car won't react that same for any of those reasons. Being able to see what or if the car will actually do those numbers can be a huge time saver and you can do or see a lot more if you actually have true data numbers off your car before/during a pull down test.

I also feel what you get out of a pull down rig for the average racer that isn't trying or experimenting a lot is somewhat limited, meaning you really only need to do it once for most guys unless you change set-ups radically. For the guys that are just doing normal adjustments or simple load number changes once is about all is needed until you do some major changes.

Again just my opinion.

[grt74]

I'm always amazed at how people forget that the old way will still work and its forgotten because of the word technology,
drill some eyebolts in the floor (like the old body shops used to use) , buy a set of scales, build an actuator cylinder for the left rear and 5th coil and you have a pull down rig, its not rocket science like most think, now a shaker rig is a whole other deal
then get some data (it can be cheap but needs to be consistent) and your ready
as hard as most work on these cars, it would only take a weekend to do

[Kromulous]

Billet would a shaker rig show you COG locations etc? and how they effect the set up?

[Matt49]

The overarching point here should be:
All that data in the world is of no use if you don't have the ability to gain knowledge from it by first converting it to information.

[billetbirdcage]

Billet would a shaker rig show you COG locations etc? and how they effect the set up?

I don't see why it couldn't, but never been on one or messed with one to say for sure. However my understanding of them (there are many and there ability varies a ton on what or how much they can do) is somewhat limited, but to me the big advantage of them is to simulate running on a track (again need data of car, tire grip, and a very accurate map of track) without wearing out engines and tires. Sure since we are dealing with dirt tracks that are going to change week to week and get holes or whatever differences in the track, so you probably can't 100% test stuff like you could for an asphalt track that isn't gonna change as much, but it would save a lot of time figuring out or sorting out what really needed to be tried once you actually go to that track to test. I'm guessing this is the reason they aren't used as much in dirt racing as they are in asphalt.

*On a side note (sort of along the lines of what GRT74 said): I think a lot of this newer tech we are doing like smashers, telemetry, pull downs and etc can get people (lower budget teams) to start to think they can't afford this and can't compete/race without it. Its similar to people thinking you need the latest newest car/gadget/products to be competitive, I really don't find that to be totally true at least as long as your not on a national tour and expect to win. While all of this for sure helps find stuff quicker and easier, it's not an end all and can be worked around with hard work. I just don't want people to feel like they HAVE to do this or HAVE all this stuff to even compete, it's hard enough for teams to be able to afford racing as it is without adding the perception that all this other stuff is a must have also furthering the expense.

[Austin34471]

To back up what Billet is saying about people getting discouraged by this stuff:
-Pull down rigs are borderline useless after using 1 time
-Spring smashers are just a spring rater.. if you know the rates of your springs, you can replace a spring smasher with a calculator and tape measure. No magic voodoo juice here.
-Like billet, I haven't messed around with a shaker, but not sure that tech has come along enough to be that useful either. Example: If i get a data pull from a testing session, input into my shaker rig, put car on shaker rig, then the shaker rig can probably bounce the car around in a manner than looks almost identical to how it looked on the track... but lets say I add 2 packers into the RF.. does it still pull the RF down to the same linear height? Spiking the wheel load? That's not what would happen on the race track... does it pull it down until the tire load reaches what it did before? That's not what would happen on the race track either. So whats the point? I've only talked to one shaker guy and he couldn't answer that question.

Most important tool you need to race and can use to beat any of the big dogs at any race at any time.

Your brain. and it's free.

[Kromulous]

And its so easy to fall into that trap... Ive been there and done it a few times.

Although along with GRT's comment, i began fabricating 3 foot tall scale stands (tired of wollering on the ground as i say). Then i found actuators on EBay that can pull 2200lbs, so i designed up a connecting system for the 4 stands, added to the mix is our lift ( 2 post auto) and i should have a crude set up for a pull down rig. Probably wont be operational till this Winter, but its in the works.

[Kromulous]

Speaking of tape measures and calculators, a local hero around here i seen his notebook. He has every spring on a given corner that he would run, charted out in measurements and lbs every .100 of a inch, 1 full turn on his brand shock. He would change spring and just wind whichever way, and would be right at the number he wanted. So i think there guys out there that still do it the old ways, plus save some bucks.

Me i enjoy making things, so just made me a smasher out of a trailer jack, and a scale. I have about $700 in it, and my time.

[billetbirdcage]

Most important tool you need to race and can use to beat any of the big dogs at any race at any time.

Your brain. and it's free.

I had to pay for my brain, I think I paid $10.00 but think I got ripped off, LMAO

[ZERO25]

On a side note. Even though this car was a copy of a Longhorn, there were a lot of little things that needed to be changed, thus the 2 full days at $250/hr.

The guys that built it are local builders, and have built many winning cars in the past (locally and regionally). Their jig fixtures are a little unorthodox, hence most likely for the necessary changes.

[Austin34471]

I had to pay for my brain, I think I paid $10.00 but think I got ripped off, LMAO
You should ask Goodwill for a refund!!

[Kromulous]

What did they have to change? Just wondering.

Are you referring to the Dixie Metal Works "Cattle Car"?

[ZERO25]

What did they have to change? Just wondering.

Are you referring to the Dixie Metal Works "Cattle Car"?

1) They wouldn't divulge.

2) No

[fastford]

I'm always amazed at how people forget that the old way will still work and its forgotten because of the word technology,
drill some eyebolts in the floor (like the old body shops used to use) , buy a set of scales, build an actuator cylinder for the left rear and 5th coil and you have a pull down rig, its not rocket science like most think, now a shaker rig is a whole other deal
then get some data (it can be cheap but needs to be consistent) and your ready
as hard as most work on these cars, it would only take a weekend to do

yep , this is what ive been doing for years , and you will be amazed what you can find with the shocks off and 4 floor jacks , as far as geometry is concerned , a local driver that was running pretty well , took his car to one of these places last year and slowed down 2 tenths , like others have said , you have to know all the variables and a lot about your car for this to help on a one time visit.....JMO.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

yep , this is what ive been doing for years , and you will be amazed what you can find with the shocks off and 4 floor jacks , as far as geometry is concerned , a local driver that was running pretty well , took his car to one of these places last year and slowed down 2 tenths , like others have said , you have to know all the variables and a lot about your car for this to help on a one time visit.....JMO.....
I have seen it hurt a car as well.

[davis2902]

I see more and more racers struggle because of "technology". So many guys rely on spring smashers and have done away with the old tried and true weight out. Those scales say alot no matter what your 4" number is........

[grt74]

I see more and more racers struggle because of "technology". So many guys rely on spring smashers and have done away with the old tried and true weight out. Those scales say alot no matter what your 4" number is........

smart, smart, man
also amazing what an angle finder, tape measure, and old fashion plumb bob can do, along with some simple welding

[Jking24]

smart, smart, manalso amazing what an angle finder, tape measure, and old fashion plumb bob can do, along with some simple weldingI think the statement "we don't scale any anymore" gets used a little too broadly and people that don't understand or are inexperienced get lost quick. Make no mistake every car that wins a race has been on a set of scales. Their are some things that can't be done any other way and it still matters just as much as it ever did