Thoughts. After having a talk with Moyer’s crew chief at the World 100 Saturday......

[HoosierDirtFan]

Thoughts.
This post is for this who have raced in the passed or currently race now.
After having a talk with Billy Moyer’s Crew Chief Saturday of the World 100 weekend one topic that came up and he believed it was some it could be a simple fix to help save Late Model Racing put a cap on the type of sho is used on dirt late Models and ban the ones that are not really needed. Basically outing every team in the same type of shocks and some how capping the price spent. He though was give the teams a time table to implement get the new shocks.

[HoosierDirtFan]

This guy has been with billy since the mid 1989’s.

[Kromulous]

Race fans could not fathom how much time and money can be spent on Shocks.

Such as position dependent valved shocks, Inerter style shocks, it goes on an on.

I can already here the crickets, you dont need all that... Yes, you better be on your A Game if you want to tangle with Dport and Zero, thats what its going to take.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Race fans could not fathom how much time and money can be spent on Shocks.

Such as position dependent valved shocks, Inerter style shocks, it goes on an on.

I can already here the crickets, you dont need all that... Yes, you better be on your A Game if you want to tangle with Dport and Zero, thats what its going to take.

Inerters are already illegal.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Sounds like Billy's guy is more worried about dumbing it down than making it cheaper. If it's "shocks you don't really need" then you don't need them. Problem solved.

[Josh Bayko]

Inerters are already illegal.

And have been for like 5 years.

[Josh Bayko]

Changing the aero and taking downforce away obsoletes a lot less stuff and saves more money than taking shocks (that may or may not be as exotic) away.

[ImCryn2]

Race fans could not fathom how much time and money can be spent on Shocks.


You hit the nail on the head there. Plus it all sounds easy when you're not the one doing the work.

My guess is, Steve feels this way because it's the most technical part of the car and that's where he feels his team is behind.

[hjr2]

Can anyone recommend things to read or watch to learn about the shocks on DLM's?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You hit the nail on the head there. Plus it all sounds easy when you're not the one doing the work.

My guess is, Steve feels this way because it's the most technical part of the car and that's where he feels his team is behind.

You can spend as much time and money on any part of the car you desire. 10 years ago, TC was the Boogeyman keeping folks down. Now it's shocks. If you haven't maximized what you already have, it's YOU keeping you down.

[ImCryn2]

You can spend as much time and money on any part of the car you desire. 10 years ago, TC was the Boogeyman keeping folks down. Now it's shocks. If you haven't maximized what you already have, it's YOU keeping you down.

The guy like me who builds every part of the racecar himself still has to have a shock guru to run up front. That's if you can find someone that'll build you what you need vs just something that'll get you by. You can have the perfect racecar, but one shock not cooperating, it's garbage. You've been around, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm not against the 'high dollar' shocks, I think the money spent on them is still a bargain when you consider the difference they make. The most challenging part is finding a shock guy that wants to help instead of just making a dollar.

[tb1545]

Seen it on here before when this topic has came up and ive heard it from several smarter setup guys.

You CANT unlearn technology. And when you create a rule to get rid of that technology, teams spend more money to accomplish the same thing in another way.

Also, when you create rules to limit technology whether it be something like a "spec" shock, the rule is only as good as the tech and knowledge of the tech guys to enforce it. There was a big street stock race that one of the top 4 guys got DQed for a spec shock not meeting tolerances (by an afco rep supposedly). After afco took the shock apart at their shop, they found the shock was damaged and not tampered.

I am all for seeing them try something to reign in things a bit. I believe aero probably needs to be messed with first to limit the effectiveness of the suspension.
If they ever do go trying to limit shocks, my personal opinion from a limited shock knowledge is the gas is the cause of all the evils. A straight oil filled shock with no gas pressure would be what i would look at.

[fastford]

i agree and disagree , shock technology has allowed for the use of more HP , especially on slick tracks , where a high hp engine in the slick was not as important in the days of plain old oil shocks , we build every thing also and am lucky enough to have a shock man that can take older shocks and make them perform with new ones at a reasonable price , this is the only reason im against a shock rule , i realize every one dont have this luxury just like every one cant build there own engines that are competitive , kind of a catch 22 i suppose....JMO.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The guy like me who builds every part of the racecar himself still has to have a shock guru to run up front. That's if you can find someone that'll build you what you need vs just something that'll get you by. You can have the perfect racecar, but one shock not cooperating, it's garbage. You've been around, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

I'm not against the 'high dollar' shocks, I think the money spent on them is still a bargain when you consider the difference they make. The most challenging part is finding a shock guy that wants to help instead of just making a dollar.

I hear you. I somewhat agree. But, a shock is a damper. It smooths out oscillations of the suspension resulting from bumps. We use them as crutches and weight transfer devices, to a degree, even though that's not really what they are supposed to do. I believe there are plenty of guys that can build you something that runs within a tenth of a second of what you have now. That had certainly been my experience.

The idea that you have to spend $8k on a set of Penske and the LMJ Ohlins you bought 10 years ago are junk, does not fly with me. Shocks are not complicated. You are shearing a fluid. It makes a force proportional to shaft velocity. It isn't quantum physics.

[Kromulous]

Inerters are Illegal, just a reference to the past was all, and the time spent on them.

I talked to the Head Penske Engineer at PRI and what he told me was literally Pandora's box for shocks. Also think about this, its not the price of the shocks, and the costs to have them worked on, its the time testing that you need to log to figure out what you need to do to said shocks that has financial impact. Plus like Imcryn2 said, you have to find a guy that's willing and capable to do it.

Time to build a Street Stock !

[Rocky]

How exactly do you limit shocks? If you go to non adjustable oil shocks now you have to have a whole shelf full of shocks with springs on them smashed to different rates. I don’t know as much about late models as anyone associated with Billy Moyer but how do you do it?

[billetbirdcage]

Rocky, you can't to a degree. While you could limit adjustable shocks to only 1 adjustment per rebound/compression and eliminate 4 way adjustable shocks, but then like you said guys will have several shocks that are already valved and increase the number of shock you carry. The only real way you're gonna limit the cost is go to a spec shock.

Not a fan of the idea. Why are you gonna start with something that is way low on the list of what costs the most on a LM.

A guy can also make the argument that I can spend just as much on spindles as I do shocks if you arguing the time and money spent on research. I could cut the front end off a car and try several different front ends and do something different every week and go test it until I found something better. It's not any different then testing and revalving shocks and spending a ton that way.

Steve Norris (billys crew guy - I assume) has been around forever and has my respect, but it's not the feasible and is way low on the list of the things that cost a national team.

[billetbirdcage]

I would bet anything if you talk to any of the owners of a touring team the top 3 or 4 expenses would be these on average and I bet not one of them would list shocks

Engines
Labor - crew expenses
Tires
Fuel/travel expenses

[Rocky]

Engines and tires. Especially tires. If you’re REALLY worried about decreasing cost limit to stock valve angles and take all the titanium and throw it in the dumpster. Maybe a cubic inch limit too. Say 410 or 427. I have integra shocks by a guy up north and don’t run last because of my shocks or motor it’s because I can’t drive a hot nail up a snowman’s behind. I am just out there for fun. Shocks don’t cost as much as motors.

[Rocky]

By the way don’t think I am advocating any of that it’ll never happen but if cost is to be addressed maybe address stuff that’s expensive like motors instead of stuff that’s cheap like bodies.

[Bob Hubbard]

If you want more rules drop down to the limited class .... This is how & why Nascar started going down hill ... The less rules the better IMO ...

[Rocky]

I don’t want more rules. The more rules you have the more money guys will spend to beat them. Although the safety rules update was probably overdue. I don’t mind that.

[Bob Hubbard]

I was just talking in general ....Not to your post ...

[Rocky]

Personally if somebody wants to spend a million dollars to win $1000 and a plastic trophy who am I to stop them. This is America.

[Watts6]

Air?.... Really?.... At what point do you think air will not matter? At no race track do these cars travel 35mph. You will never stop aero being a factor

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Rocky,

That cheap body requires you to have the expensive engine. The best, easiest way to enforce a cost reduction is to make the expensive part not worth the money.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If you want more rules drop down to the limited class .... This is how & why Nascar started going down hill ... The less rules the better IMO ...

The current problem is lack of rule enforcement. The bodies should not be where they are. Were you around when the wedge was killed to save the sport?

[chupp n bloomer fan]

The current problem is lack of rule enforcement. The bodies should not be where they are. Were you around when the wedge was killed to save the sport?Precisely...

[Rocky]

Masters,

it wouldn't really hurt my feelings of the noses were shorter and the elephant ears were not so ridiculous. It kinda makes me nervous that I might hit a little kid driving through the pits because the Left front is up so high.the body in my car is old, I don't have one of the good bodies. But even if I did, a hobby guy that runs between 5 and 10 races a year isn't gonna win any races. I suppose I run limiteds, but that's just fancy talk for 370 inch motor super around here.

Edit that should say part time guy that could maybe win a heat race or something some day. Nobody I race is a professional race car driver.

[Josh Bayko]

Air?.... Really?.... At what point do you think air will not matter? At no race track do these cars travel 35mph. You will never stop aero being a factor

If you take the downforce off the car, you can’t apply nearly as much power. We don’t even have to back that far. Just going back to 2008 bodies wouldn’t significantly change the look of the cars, but it would take a few hundred pounds of downforce out of it.

[Rocky]

So you guys are saying I need to put a bigger body on my car lol?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So you guys are saying I need to put a bigger body on my car lol?

My buddy modernized the body on his car over the winter. He did a few other small things that helped, but it is leaps and bounds faster. I think the body was a huge part of it.

[Josh Bayko]

So you guys are saying I need to put a bigger body on my car lol?

It would help.

[Rocky]

My buddy modernized the body on his car over the winter. He did a few other small things that helped, but it is leaps and bounds faster. I think the body was a huge part of it.

Well dang. The body from the fenders back is very old.we modernized the front end last winter. I want to get a newer car, but there's something happening that might stop that. Maybe I will finally crack for sheet metal . If you can't catch em, join em.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You have to get the interior down low, with rake to the back and so the drivers interior becomes a sideboard. It adds massive downforce.

[Rocky]

The deck is dished, but the hood is probably 2 inches higher than it. I know what the new ones look like. I have noticed that the other guys cars are wider than mine on the left side at the drivers door. Also, my quarter panels don't come down as far as theirs and my roof is way smaller and not angled steeply like theirs.

[Rocky]

Matter of fact the body on my car is probably about like the ones you guys would like to see back out there. It belonged to a buddy of mine like 10 years ago.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Matter of fact the body on my car is probably about like the ones you guys would like to see back out there. It belonged to a buddy of mine like 10 years ago.

I'd say you are right. This car started life as an 03 masters. The roof isn't raked like a current car still.

[Rocky]

Back to the topic of shocks please don't make me give up my integras in the hopes of saving a little guy like memoney, I already paid for them.

[Bob Hubbard]

Too many factors come into play when you just focus on one thing .... Teams that races for a living are gonna find the speed vs the weekend warrior .... Look at how screwed up the tire rule was .... IMO the scales are another rule that needs to go ..

[Josh Bayko]

Too many factors come into play when you just focus on one thing .... Teams that races for a living are gonna find the speed vs the weekend warrior .... Look at how screwed up the tire rule was .... IMO the scales are another rule that needs to go ..

No minimum weight is a rabbit hole that nobody wants to go down. Even 410 sprints have weight limits now.

[dirtcrazy4u]

It's funny how you get a group of guys talking about expenses and how to make things better overall. Bodies, motors, shocks and tires. Everyone has had there opinion on what needs to change but no one steps up to make a change. For change to happen you would need to have lucas, woo and a few others in the industry to sit down and map out a strategy. Never going to happen. They don't care about local racing, they would rather have guys that are spending way to much following there program.

Bodies, I like the looks of today's SLM. Everybody can afford a body. What is it 8, 9 sheets of aluminum. That body creates a tremendous amount of downforce.
Motors, now where getting to the good stuff, it's the biggest expense for a team thru the course of a year. You start with 2 or ideally 3. After a race such as eldora not 1 team is going to knoxville with the same powerplant in hopes of winning.
You could limit the cubic inches, that's not changing costs, the engine builder is still holding his hand out and saying 65k please. Remember everyone saying 360 motors where going to save sprint car racing. It just drove the costs higher.
Shocks, a yes shocks, as someone said. There is a difference in a guy that just puts a set together and the guy that understands every movement the car and that shock make.
Tires, well most sanctioning bodies have eliminated cutting tires. So today teams sand them. The part of the tire that has seen the most attention over the years has been sidewall technology. You have to be able to feel the car rolling over on the sidewall and be able to adjust.
Technology, which you can never stop, is what's killing the sport. If you take that body away that I think looks good.
Do you need the motor, No.
Do you need the shocks, No
Do you need the tires, No
Without all that downforce, the best tires, motor, shocks wouldn't make a difference.

[Rocky]

Too many factors come into play when you just focus on one thing .... Teams that races for a living are gonna find the speed vs the weekend warrior .... Look at how screwed up the tire rule was .... IMO the scales are another rule that needs to go ..

Minimum weight is actually a safety rule.

[hucktyson]

Check the deck height after the race as soon as the car pulls in. The cars go from 39” to 45” just by turning the wheel left on pit road ... and why is the deck 39 instead of 36 like it always was ?? Why do we have to allow 15” of RF clearance ? That just allows people to manipulate deck height with super soft stacked RF springs and setting that corner extra high making the LR extra low. How about this , tell them you can run whatever ground clearance you want but it has to be the same on both sides. You want 15” ok great make the left side 15” also. The shocks are what allow the car to maintain that dynamic posture but if you just put insane rebound in both fronts and make the LR like a solid rod the car feels like a buckboard on square wheels and a 2” hole throws the car like a 2ft hole. So you have to figure out how to keep that posture and handle holes. Racing does not need to be this expensive or this complicated. My favorite part is the local dudes posting on here that I even don’t think are winning locally feel that no rules is the best way as if they have it figured out as well as Davenport and team zero lol lol lol . No one was in davenports League this week and he didn’t get there but running off the shelf longhorn shocks. These guys run 15 seconds when eldora is blowing dust , a few years ago those were 17 second conditions lol

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Everyone wants to do nothing, or get lost in the weeds, when the big, giant body is staring them right in the face. Wedge bodies killed engines in cars with monoleaf suspension and Monroe shocks! Let that sink in.

[JabberJaws83]

Every car I watched pull into tire tech at the World looked like the right rear was broken. The car leans so much not even under load. Like I said in a post before, I saw one of Josh Richards' right side door panels for sale in the pits at the Dream I thought it was fake that it was so small.

[JabberJaws83]

Everyone wants to do nothing, or get lost in the weeds, when the big, giant body is staring them right in the face. Wedge bodies killed engines in cars with monoleaf suspension and Monroe shocks! Let that sink in.

You are exactly right. Everyone from the sanctions to Mark Richards talk a big game about saving late model racing, but no one wants to actually step up to the plate to do anything about it. Racers are their own worst enemy and they are steering the sinking ship. They need a Bob Memmer to put a cork in the ship.

[hardracer32]

My 2 cents: Implement the "Droop Rule" in all series, and at all tracks, in all Late Model-type classes. Lower the max ground clearance for nose to 10", put decks back to 36" at ride height, make maximum nose width somewhere UNDER 8 freaking feet wide! Make Right Front wheel be inside the confines of the body, +/- 1", and also maximum of 2" past Right Rear. ENFORCE current rules about keeping doors flat, not dished, ENFORCE rules about dishing front panels, etc...Then, MAYBE take a look at trying to put a handle on some of the shock/spring technology. Like limiting the number of springs on each coilover/corner of the car, and how many adjusting devices are allowed, etc.

All of these things would be very minimal cost to change or phase in. But they would have major impact on downforce, traction, etc. If you only changed that much, it would level the playing field for smaller budget teams that are running lower power engines and older chassis that weren't designed to race with the rack and pinion plowing up the race track and the spoiler sticking up 8 feet in the air. Heck even now I've seen CT525's win races against the latest and greatest engines on the track. But the circumstances have to be just right for that to happen. If you reign in some of these things though, it would make it much more feasible for a guy to go out and be competitive on a regional or even national level and spend less money to do it. But what do I know.

[Rocky]

I am definitely not winning locally and Eldora and such might as well be a different planet than I live on. I certainly am not the guy to make up rules to try and reign in the best in the business. However I know that whatever they come up with those guys will work around the clock to beat it. You could give me JD’s shocks and he’s still gonna lap me. I definitely am not the guy to tell anyone else what to do. Eventually all this stuff trickles down to the lappers like me, used and out of date. Do I really care? Nope. Did my crew guy go on deployment and I don’t have anybody to bench race with? Yup. Can somebody reign it in? Maybe, but it’s not me.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Hardracer,

Guys are not going to give up load curves that work. Those proposed rule changes to springs just made the chassis very expensive, as the spring must now be hidden in plain site. As in a part of the car becomes the spring. That rule is too far in the weeds. Who cares how high a car hikes if it has a flat deck and no spoiler?

[hardracer32]

MasterSbilt_Racer,

If the deck is 6 ft in the air the whole car is a spoiler. It turns it into an even bigger wedge than they used to run back in the day. And as far as load curves etc, there's only so much "tuning" you can do with a chassis, and putting some wording into place for construction and tubing requirements before that Pandora's box is opened would help mitigate that anyway. No different than a lot of rule books now that are pretty specific about chassis/roll cage construction. Especially in asphalt and road racing.

P.S.- I always look forward to your replies and debating with you, btw.

[batman]

Personally if somebody wants to spend a million dollars to win $1000 and a plastic trophy who am I to stop them. This is America.

Lol seriously this really sums it all up at all levels of racing

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

MasterSbilt_Racer,

If the deck is 6 ft in the air the whole car is a spoiler. It turns it into an even bigger wedge than they used to run back in the day. And as far as load curves etc, there's only so much "tuning" you can do with a chassis, and putting some wording into place for construction and tubing requirements before that Pandora's box is opened would help mitigate that anyway. No different than a lot of rule books now that are pretty specific about chassis/roll cage construction. Especially in asphalt and road racing.

P.S.- I always look forward to your replies and debating with you, btw.

The downforce is still greatly reduced from today's numbers, with a flat deck and no spoiler. How are you going to determine if a chassis is a spring or not, in tech? We need simple rules enforced with simple tools. Or the rules are useless.

PS. I enjoy civil debate. Thanks.

[Rocky]

Lol seriously this really sums it all up at all levels of racing

I have plenty of friends that have borrowed money against their houses for street stock engines.

[hardracer32]

I'm not sure I see that chassis thing as being a feasible issue. There are ways to tech wall thickness etc, but also I think that would sort of police itself because there is only so much you can do with a chassis before you start making it completely useless in regards to safety, durability, etc. All you have to do is look at what Rocket and some of the other builders did right before the current trend. Some of those cars were flexing so much that they were wearing out after just a few races, or guys were having to constantly weld up tubing that was cracking. They were already getting to the limits of what a chassis can do as far as being a spring.

But aside from the aerodynamic and cost aspect of the cars, I hate the current bodies because they just look stupid. The cars look like they've been wrecked before they ever pull out on the racetrack. It's ridiculous. One of the things that makes racing attractive is the construction of the cars, the beauty of the machines themselves, and here lately, in my humble opinion, the cars are looking kind of dumb. The most important thing though is cost and performance.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm not sure I see that chassis thing as being a feasible issue. There are ways to tech wall thickness etc, but also I think that would sort of police itself because there is only so much you can do with a chassis before you start making it completely useless in regards to safety, durability, etc. All you have to do is look at what Rocket and some of the other builders did right before the current trend. Some of those cars were flexing so much that they were wearing out after just a few races, or guys were having to constantly weld up tubing that was cracking. They were already getting to the limits of what a chassis can do as far as being a spring.

But aside from the aerodynamic and cost aspect of the cars, I hate the current bodies because they just look stupid. The cars look like they've been wrecked before they ever pull out on the racetrack. It's ridiculous. One of the things that makes racing attractive is the construction of the cars, the beauty of the machines themselves, and here lately, in my humble opinion, the cars are looking kind of dumb. The most important thing though is cost and performance.

It would be easy to incorporate a torsion bar into the coilover mounting system. It would be fairly easy to hide.

[hucktyson]

Hard racer it’s impossible to debate MB racer on this subject because he starts from the baseline that he has an engineering degree so engineering is free for him so rule changes would cost him money. The concept and rule changes make stuff obsolete is absurd to because people are always buying the newest best thing anyway. If you got rid of stacked springs and specified linear rates only , made a 7” stoke limit on the Lr shocks front and rear , got rid of bumpstops of all types , made the decks 36” inches AFTER THE RACE and the front ground clearance the same on each side measured after the race also. You’ve now eliminated , super soft left rears , super high rebound front shocks, the hundreds of hours of tuning stacked spring combinations and lock out settings , you’ve eliminated the ability to hike to 58”. You’ve eliminated the ability to hold rear ends up and front ends down , you still have an enormous window of adjustability but you got rid of “ dirty air “ and you also got rid of 15 second laps at eldora when it’s blowing dust. Winners will still win , guys will still spend a lot but it will close the gap to a point where your 500 laps of testing is erased by jumping the cushion one time. Don’t give me this bullhit that you can make a car react the same exact was as before those changes by making the car a spring. Cars need unhooked, without any kind of local super lates feeding it , the touring super lates will eventually die also

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Huck,

We agree on a lot of it, but very specific suspension rules are exactly what get the engineers involved. A spring is a spring. You can put it anywhere in the system as long as you get the desired wheel rate. I'm not talking about making the car a spring. The car still needs the correct torsional rigidity compared to what the suspension load is applying.

You take 600# of downforce off the cars, it's a whole new ballgame. It can be done without dumbing the cars down. You are confusing dumbing it down with making it cheaper.

[Rocky]

I can agree on that Huck. On nights I don’t drive I crew for a buddy with a street stock. We pit in the infield in turn 3 and one of the fast guys sailed off in really deep lifted rotated and jumped on it. My other friend said you need to do that, the only way I could reply was that if I tried doing that in my car I would hit that motor home parked over there. Do I need to work harder, yeah sure, but you know what it’s like just doing basic maintenance without a ton of help. That’s a lot to try and do. Not whining, just keeping it as real as I can.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Some people are not famous deck builders with a racing budget big enough to replace everything every year. So, I guess they can't debate with you.

[hucktyson]

You’ve got the wrong guy. That 2016 pierce with 3 different brands of shocks and the same type of bd1010 motor that Bart Hartman won the world with in 2009 isn’t exactly cutting edge. I was able to make the car make traction like the new stuff but it just flat out won’t rotate into the corner without stopping on entry until it gets real slick. I don’t have the time or energy to make the front end do what it needs to so it’s time for an XR1. I’m the farthest thing from a person who goes out and buys everything , I do it all my self , it’s my hobby not my business. But at some point you get tired of battling trying to make a car do something it wasn’t meant to and you get what you need .... I’m at that point lol

[Rocky]

That sounds very familiar....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Get that mastersbilt out, raise the rack, change the 4 link plates, and race it. Ours beats a lot of xr1s.

[dirty-white-boy]

Ask Steve Francis why the bodies are out of control? He was supposed to make it all better I thought? 15in RF Clearance is a joke!

[dirty-white-boy]

You are exactly right. Everyone from the sanctions to Mark Richards talk a big game about saving late model racing, but no one wants to actually step up to the plate to do anything about it. Racers are their own worst enemy and they are steering the sinking ship. They need a Bob Memmer to put a cork in the ship.

Amen to that!!!! Bob had zero interest in selling cars or motors.

[Rocky]

It would be easy to incorporate a torsion bar into the coilover mounting system. It would be fairly easy to hide.

Smokey used a transversals leaf spring as upper control arms on the sidecar way back in 64. Somebody could probably pull that off for a year before anybody caught on. There’s really no rules enforcement.

[PRCKartRacer9]

Huck, love your replies. all I read all weekend was what a joke you are. well if tgis were another board, I'm sure you would speak what you're thinking, but its nice to have ya back at the same time. anyways, you're an old school racer that takes what he had and makes it work anf we should all respect that. racing is racing. this stuff today where it's chasing who put the right shocks on is boring to watch. I honestly would rather watch pure stocks than a super late feature at some tracks because whoever is right is going to win by a bunch. it's a crap shoot every night. not a shoot out. go to any track in the early to mid 90's. those were shoot outs. the local boys all across the mid west gave anyone a run for their money because they knew what worked on that track. a couple names from Muskingum that come to mind are Robbie House, Jeff Boyd, Doug Dodd, Scotty Peltz, Chad Hina, Jamie Miller, Shane McLoughlin. im sure theres more in other people's eyes but these were the guys that defended their turf. now the locals are staying home because spending a bunch of money to make it to a B main isn't really exciting. but to every guy that works for a living and races for the pure joy of it, don't give up because you are keeping the sport alive

[stewart fan]

How many races did billy win because he had the newest trick?who was the first to run the pinned rf setup

[hucktyson]

Unless you were driving that 49 car you might want to start writing bigger checks for your “ information “ This is exactly why the rules will never change , too many guys will to pay someone to hold their schemed for them and help them figure stuff out. If you check deck height after the race you can’t use a shock that will hold that corner up .... if you require the front ground clearance to be the same on both sides after the race you can’t use shocks that hold that down because that would leave your deck to high at the scales. Use whatever shocks and springs you want minus inerters and then you won’t have to spend so effing much on your motor !!!! Are you really that stupid to not see if the car was unhooked you couldn’t use that big of a motor .... or are you sooo sure that the “ information “ your buying instead of coming up with for free is such an advantage for you that your better off paying for that info and paying stupid money having your engines rebuilt where everything is replaced every time to withstand turning 9k all night ??? People paying for “ information “ is the stupidity that killed weekly supers and will eventually kill touring supers

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Huck, unhooking the cars is the way. But, it needs to be done simplistic, in a way that is simple to tech. It won't take long for someone to have a bumper that adjusts clearance during the race.

Why not give aero removal a chance? Why are they wanting the rear in the air?

[hucktyson]

How much easier to tech can you get than a tape measure ?? Seriously ... I’m
Pretty sure having a rule that your not allowed hydraulic body adjustments similar to a woo sprint wing wouldn’t be very hard to tech. Pull on the scales you are either 36” or your DQ , how much easier can it get ? The front end either measures the same on each side or it doesn’t. Obviously you need significant clearance on the RF to not fold the nose , requiring that same clearance on the left will prevent you from sealing the nose. If the nose isn’t sealed you won’t have an “ aero push “ . To implement these rules you would just have to lower your T bar , make a couple bigger sail panels and cut your LF nose , most likely make a new bumper but chassis builders would love that it’s free money.

[hucktyson]

I throw in a 7” max stroke front and rear on the LR shock , and mandate that it be on the cage not a clamp or any other contraption while were at it , but I don’t want to hear how that would break people lol

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm not talking something fancy. It would be easy to make the bumper bend up on the first lap.

[hucktyson]

That’s fine as long as it bends up evenly on both sides , remember it still has to measure the same on the scales after the race ....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

They don't even measure decks after the race. Btw, I agree with you that they should. You gonna dq a guy for body damage? Lol

[hucktyson]

After the first time someone was DQ and lost 10k plus they would make sure the bumper didn’t bend again

[Rocky]

I dunno Huck they already don’t enforce most of the rules. Plus locally I could totally see some guys getting a pass for political or family reasons. It’s kinda like, Crack is bad so we should make it illegal since it’s illegal nobody will do it, right? You got a lot more experience than me and I respect your opinion. So, here’s an idea, since the promotors won’t do anything maybe team owners should. Have asome sort of convention during the off season. Maybe we could get Gerald to help us. I gotta go on deployment but I am pretty sure I have friends that would be interested. Call it United Dirt Race Teams. Try and come up with blanket body and chassis rules for Super. Limited and crate usually follows super rules for that for obvious reasons, so the right guys could probably draw a mess of interest. Either of you guys want to play Bob Memmer?

[Rocky]

FWIW, they actually do measure our deck height at the scales, but that’s too late.

[Josh Bayko]

They don't even measure decks after the race. Btw, I agree with you that they should. You gonna dq a guy for body damage? Lol

At the Firecracker about 5 or 6 years ago, they did measure decks after time trials. 17 cars lost their qualifying times. I haven’t seen it done anywhere since then.

[Rocky]

If we could get 200/300 car owners to show up in one place they would have to listen, right?

[stewart fan]

Who was the first guy to run with the rf pinned down?

[hardracer32]

stewart fan,

the first car that I ever noticed was Bloomquist, I remember several years back being at the Dixie Shootout and noticing that the attitude of his car was different than everybody elses. The track was rough and his car was gliding over the holes and left rear never went down, it always stayed up in the air. I think he was one of the first to really figure it out. He also won that night. Probably just like a lot of other things, other folks started to notice he was doing something different and they all started figuring out how to make the cars behave like that. I'm not a huge Bloomquist fan, so don't mistake this for fanboy B.S., but I do believe if he wasn't the first he was one of them.

[dirty-white-boy]

stewart fan,

the first car that I ever noticed was Bloomquist, I remember several years back being at the Dixie Shootout and noticing that the attitude of his car was different than everybody elses. The track was rough and his car was gliding over the holes and left rear never went down, it always stayed up in the air. I think he was one of the first to really figure it out. He also won that night. Probably just like a lot of other things, other folks started to notice he was doing something different and they all started figuring out how to make the cars behave like that. I'm not a huge Bloomquist fan, so don't mistake this for fanboy B.S., but I do believe if he wasn't the first he was one of them.

Isnt that when he was supposedly running an F1 type of ride height deal in the car from Penske Shocks? Something will pull rods or cross connecting shocks?

[Josh Bayko]

Isnt that when he was supposedly running an F1 type of ride height deal in the car from Penske Shocks? Something will pull rods or cross connecting shocks?

Inerters are what you’re thinking of.

[victorylane]

You can have all the rules in the world but they aren't worth a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing unless they are enforced. Steve Francis has fell right in line so he keeps his job. It would not be difficult or expensive to reel the cars back in to where you don't need 950 hp to Time Trial or Heat Race.

Stack springs, bump springs, bump stops are not expensive but the time it takes to try and figure out the combination for them is very expensive. If you take the RF travel and LR Hike away before and after the race it will greatly effect the amount of traction/downforce available. Huck has some good ideas but until tech guys are actually able to enforce the rules it will not matter what rules are changed.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You can have all the rules in the world but they aren't worth a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing unless they are enforced. Steve Francis has fell right in line so he keeps his job. It would not be difficult or expensive to reel the cars back in to where you don't need 950 hp to Time Trial or Heat Race.

Stack springs, bump springs, bump stops are not expensive but the time it takes to try and figure out the combination for them is very expensive. If you take the RF travel and LR Hike away before and after the race it will greatly effect the amount of traction/downforce available. Huck has some good ideas but until tech guys are actually able to enforce the rules it will not matter what rules are changed.

People have been running those "scary" bumpstops, springs, etc so long now they are very mundane and not a big deal.

[Mike]

You can have all the rules in the world but they aren't worth a (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing unless they are enforced. Steve Francis has fell right in line so he keeps his job. It would not be difficult or expensive to reel the cars back in to where you don't need 950 hp to Time Trial or Heat Race.

Stack springs, bump springs, bump stops are not expensive but the time it takes to try and figure out the combination for them is very expensive. If you take the RF travel and LR Hike away before and after the race it will greatly effect the amount of traction/downforce available. Huck has some good ideas but until tech guys are actually able to enforce the rules it will not matter what rules are changed.

Cars were out of hand long before Steve took that job with Lucas. Myself and a few others told everyone on here the direction aero/downforce was heading at least 10 years ago. If you really thought Lucas would allow any reigning in you must not have been paying attention. Remember the big test they conducted years ago at Florence Speedway looking at ways to reduce cost? The only major thing that came out of that was a tire rule that was going to "save weekly racing" SMH They continued to allow body mods that produced more and more downforce to the point we have the modern day wedge.

Lucas has no incentive to reign things in. They get money from people who manufacture and/or sale some of the high dollar parts people are complaining about in the form of sponsorship for the series. Fans and regional/local drivers continue to support them while complaining about things getting out of hand. As long as the sponsorship money and the fan/competitor support continues nothing is going to change.

[Kromulous]

Mike nailed it, look at it from the Top down. Everyone see's this argument from the weekly racer perspective, but if you look from the Top down you will see no one wants to rock the boat. They have sponsors that are rolling out the $$, the crowds are huge, especially at Crown Jewel races, and you have plenty of high dollar Teams at this point to support your Entertainment package. Life is a bowl of cherries right now, and there making plenty of $$ and even more coming in soon with a broader TV package. Its only going to get more and more expensive from here.

Essentially that is what we are supporting, an Entertainment venue / business. The cost will continue to drive out the lower priced Teams, it will end up just like the NHRA Fuel Teams, a few multi car teams with all the $$ and sponsors, racing the same ole 15 to 18 guys, and all the while they make a big production out it to make you think its cool, and the most important, entertaining.

I don't see anything changing at all. Why would they? The best thing anyone could do at this point is simply not go, but your car in a barn, and lock the door for a few years. Cut the flow of the $$ and you will get their attention, but that will never happen.

[Burke1118]

Shocks aren’t that expensive, and they don’t go bad. It’s 100$ to freshen one, or 10$ if you know how to change 3 o rings and shock oil. They aren’t the problem.

The biggest costs currently are engines and stupidity.
Engines because we have cars that can ACTUALLY USE 1000hp
And stupidity because people think they need 2 XR1s, 100 integras, the nicest smasher, and every bump stop ever made to be fast. An XR1 is just a gaggle of metal tubes, you can do all the same things with every double adj shock made in the last 10 years just about, and you can use a calculator for your spring crunching.. using your brain can save you loads of money.
My solution for the engine is not to implement engine rules, but make it so that there is no need for any more than about 750hp at any given time, (see modifieds). Take the spoiler completely off, and lower the nose height rule to 12” on the RF and 4” on the LF. Good luck getting the back of the car up without plowing the nose into the ground or completely unsealing the nose. You can build an all aluminum motor that is driveable and has 750hp for peanuts compared to today’s RY45s etc. Then implement a mandatory 4 hard tire rule where you must qualify, heat, and feature on the same 3, with a new Rr allowed in the feature.. No grooving no siping no prepping. Take random lab samples rigorously and make the penalty life time ban.

That fixes your tire problems, most of your aero problems, and your engine problems..How you fix the stupidity part I’m not sure. Someone who really knows what they are doing needs to make a non XR1/LH/black diamond chassis in their garage and go out and stomp everyone to show it can be done. It’s completely possible, would open some eyes and maybe get some people re energized

[hucktyson]

Considering that people are having a hard enough time “ stomping everyone “ with the newest technology you are right that would be impressive.... sounds like you are volunteering , I have a 2016 pierce you can buy to show everyone how that’s done. And wreck a Penske right front and bend the high speed shaft option and show me the 100.00 bill to fix that ...

[Rocky]

If somebody built a car in their garage that stomped all their ass and didn’t start selling them for more than an xr1, I would suspect them to be a commie.

[hucktyson]

The problem is every track and every condition is different. To take an old car and get it to XR1 level racing against national talent would take hundreds of hours of fabricating , thousands of laps of testing that’s if you are as smart as the people who created the new stuff and could drive well enough. Unless you are unemployed and have someone funding this pipe dream it’s going to cost you triple what just buying the XR1 would be anyway 🤣🤣🤣

[hucktyson]

Not to mention you are chasing a moving target that literally gets better every week

[hucktyson]

Madden was never going to lose a crown jewel again ... there’s an insane amount of knowledge, driving skill, testing and experience going on down at planet zero ... and just a few weeks after he was never going to lose again he had absolutely nothing for snort , no one did . That’s because everyone is constantly improving

[Rocky]

I am not speaking for everyone, but if you have a good enough paying job to race late model, chances are you’re at your real job 60 hours a week or so or more. I am. Just keeping on top of the maintenance by yourself can be tough. Out engineering real engineers ain’t for me. That’s why I don’t have any ideas how to level the field. I don’t race I just drive in circles and don’t wreck guys that have good cars.

[slingindirt83]

A complete-competitive shock package is expensive, but not in the whole scheme of all things late model racing. Its not the price of the shocks its that they stick the car to the ground. With the way these cars are stuck from air and shocks, is why you need these huge displacement motors. They dont call them dig sticks for nothing lol. I can remember getting teched at a WOO race 10 years ago and the decks were out of control then, but nothing was said to these guys. Now if a locals sail panel was 1/2" too tall they had to change it though. Just watch when BMJ slid that guy last weekend. He never hit him but that guys whole front end came off the ground from losing the air.

[hjr2]

This thread was a great read. I don't race, just a fan.It seems like there are two types of racers. Those that can't afford to win and those that can't afford to lose.