How much horsepower really?

[Rocky]

Every time I watch a race on TV, I hear some pit reporter guy say 800 horsepower. That’s about what they would have if everybody (or anybody) was running 23 degree Chevy motors. I am giving an estimate of about 1400 horsepower for the really big dogs, just from running some numbers on intake airflow guesstimators.... then knowing that the pros are way better than roll your own guys like me. I can tell you that head technology today is amazing compared to when I built my first engine way back when.

How close is my guess you think?

[dalemcfan]

Talked to Cornett’s guy in Marlar’s pit last year at World Finals in Charlotte. I think his name was Dan. Tall dude from Iowa. He said the motor Marlar was running was between 910-915 hp.

[rdcllk]

Just my thoughts. I don't think there much over 900.
Even with the cars of today. I think that is all they can use

[formercrewguy]

900+ is the norm. There is no difference between the Ford's and Chevy platforms HP wise. Torque is optimized at different rpm's though. Got that straight from Jack Cornett.

[james777777]

I've seen a lot of Pro Power claims in the 900s. You have to keep in mind that these engines aren't designed for all out peak HP like say a drag race engine. If they were, we'd be looking at 1,000 something numbers.

[Rocky]

I guess I didn’t really think about it like that. My mentor is a drag racer. I really, really want to build a Super engine. I have wanted to all my life. But there’s about 6 super races a year around here and I would probably have to get Robbie to drive the thing. Limited motors are fun to build.

[rdcllk]

I always enjoyed building my own engines.. Never built one over 600. Never needed more. Had one built that was 650 and couldn't keep tires on a modified. Tell you where my weakness was.lol

[Rocky]

I just really love building motors. I do demolition derby motors now too. My buddy wants me to try and start doing it as a business. I don’t know though. That’s a big flyer. I have never had a very good car but being under powered has never been an issue.

[superstock79]

If u r putting out reliable 800+ horsepower 23 degree engines, u have some bad sh!t figured out! Or your dyno is VERY friendly!

[fastford]

a couple years back , we angle milled the crap out of some old 23 degree brodex heads and made 780 on a 420 , i think there was a little left on the table but never tried.......

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

A big ry 45 can top out a bit over 900.

[Rocky]

I called one of the best head porters around today, I wanna send him some work. I am waiting for a call back.

[fastford]

A big ry 45 can top out a bit over 900.

i have not seen one yet , but there is talk of a 490 cub small block ford with the new kasse heads bumping over 1100 hp , suppose to be some where in georgia.......

[dirtcrazy4u]

I've heard so many guys after a win say, well that's are small motor or the big motor is hurt so we had to put this one in and we are down on HP. Hello, you just won the race bubble head. Don't get me wrong there are tracks that HP rules, eldora and knoxville come to mind. I don't believe there is a track under a 1/2 mile that needs a monster motor. Torque band , is what I want on a smaller track.

[slingindirt83]

Most these guys start the night with around 900 hp. Then proceed to kill it all night with restrictors. I think thats part of what makes Bobby so good when it slicks off and has a cushion. They seem to really have that figured out.

[hucktyson]

I honestly think on a legit dyno a 430 ry45 is in the neighborhood of 860-880 , I would say a 10 degree spread bore is around 850 and a D3 around 820. You can make a dyno say anything you want , I call BS on all of this 950 plus stuff I hear. I’m sure one of these motors with a tunnel ram and a pair of 1050 dominators would make close to 1000 at 8500 rpm but that isn’t how they are run on dirt ....

[Kromulous]

The amazing thing now days in like the RY-45 Ford is the make incredible HP for so may RPMS. the Dyno curve on the new Fords are amazing, they make over 850 hp for almost 2500 RPM. The old days you could hit maybe 880, but its peaky and hard to drive.

You still dont need it in the slick, but without in qualifying and heat races, your a sitting duck.

[Rocky]

900+ with one carburetor is really something though. That’s 175 percent of a really hot 358 with Dart heads.

[Snowmanracr21]

The wide bore late model motors are all over 900 now. The 410 sprint car injected engines are even more.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Most these guys start the night with around 900 hp. Then proceed to kill it all night with restrictors. I think thats part of what makes Bobby so good when it slicks off and has a cushion. They seem to really have that figured out.
Dennis Erb jr ran 5th in the DTWC. He was running 16.8 or worse for a big chunk of the race. A 604 crate can do that lap time

[manwplan]

Huck is spot on. You can make the dyno say anything. I would say the D3 stuff these days might be closer to 850 though. And I would add a legit Clements Standard bore makes 830.

[billetbirdcage]

Huck, Roush Yates says the RY makes 901. A team I help has 2 of them and on another dyno besides Durhams they make 906 and 908. A 410 D3 makes similar power but about 90 foot pounds less on torque.

There are some larger RY's then the standard 436 that was designed at Roush Yates, that make a little more but mostly torque for big tracks like Knoxville and etc.


https://i.imgur.com/1r65uuil.png

[hucktyson]

I know for a fact that a 410 D3 doesn’t make 900, not even close. An RY might , but in reality there isn’t many people running the RY anymore. The RY was super popular for a while so there has to be some reason everyone got away from it and I find it hard to believe the only reason is cost.

[billetbirdcage]

Everyone says the D3, is more drivable. We tried the 410 D3 (most are using the bigger D3) and there wasn't enough difference in it to make the change. The RY does run better down the straight, but as far as drivability we didn't see much if any difference in it.

Shrugs

[Mopar DLM]

Been several years back well before Roush started doing it Larry Wallace built EPJ a 440 CI Dodge super engine using nascar engine parts from Penske and a tall deck block from Ernie Elliott that made a little over 1000 Hp. In the magazine article Earl said it was kinda useless unless you were qualifying. Now that was long before the shocks and setups used in todays world.

[Mopar DLM]

Didn't bloomquist show up one time with something right close to 500 CI ? Seems like maybe 15 to 20 years ago. Well before the heads and intakes to support that were around for small blocks

[fastford]

Everyone says the D3, is more drivable. We tried the 410 D3 (most are using the bigger D3) and there wasn't enough difference in it to make the change. The RY does run better down the straight, but as far as drivability we didn't see much if any difference in it.

Shrugs

some would say the old c3,s had the smoothest torque curve of all , one of the best engines i ever fooled withe was a 440 inch fontana block with some penske c3 heads , that engine had what i consider the most usable curve , it would pull smooth and steady from 3500 to 7500 , gave you a lot of room with gear choices , it didnt make huge hp , but if i could , i would put it up against any of these newer engines...........

[Rocky]

We really should talk about horsepower more.

[james777777]

There are teams at the national level winning with D3 and RY45 based engines. Maybe it's just driver preference? And isn't Jay (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens pushing a std bore Chevy now?

[Jking24]

There are teams at the national level winning with D3 and RY45 based engines. Maybe it's just driver preference? And isn't Jay (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens pushing a std bore Chevy now?Yes he is but he claims it makes better power than anything he's built prior. This came straight from the horses mouth but we did not talk about actual hp numbers because as most know the big number doesn't really mean anything it's all about the curve.

[hucktyson]

If touring pros start winning with the 432 11 degree jay (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens I’m
Sure they will sell a bunch of them. The best way to sell motors is to get them in the rocket 1 since all of the rocket guys will run out and buy whatever is in that car ...

[jog49]

Truth or not (and he had no reason to lie), an acquaintance contracted and bought a 435 C.I. Chevy from Clements in South Carolina with dyno papers at 935 h.p. At 4/10 and 1/2 mile tracks, it was pretty stout.

[Barbecueboy]

The absolut smartest thing I've ever seen you write.

The rocket guys are brilliant in that way too.....the 1 car is the only billboard that operation will ever need and they treat it as such....hats off to them for figuring that out early and often.

[Kromulous]

You can have the same heads on 100 different engines, but get vastly different results. Its all in the port design / porting and finishing, valve job, valves and intake manifolds. Headers as well are very important.

Seems like the last few years the cylinder heads have gotten a lot better, and you see them big power numbers. I'm sure a lot of it is just trial and error over the years, plus some real Engineering and Design.

[AllenK]

Yes he is but he claims it makes better power than anything he's built prior. This came straight from the horses mouth but we did not talk about actual hp numbers because as most know the big number doesn't really mean anything it's all about the curve.

I read the same article about (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens. Pretty interesting about a movement back toward std. bore,or did they every go totally out of vogue?

[Rocky]

I read the same article about (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ens. Pretty interesting about a movement back toward std. bore,or did they every go totally out of vogue?


The majority of late models are standard bore spacing engines. The top 100 maybe 200 cars in the country I would say aren’t. Just a rough guess and possibly totally too high or low. Based on what comes up for sale on the Dirt Late Models for Sale Facebook page. Even if you’re just a fan, if you’re on 4m you’re hardcore, join that page.

[AnonymousNate]

what it would be like if woo/or lucas oil threw just a few restrictor place races in their yearly schedules . wonder how that would be. how some dem ''big dog'' drivers would react. ;)

[let-r-eat]

I think the power is mainly needed to turn the car with these tight setups they are running? Overton blows your ear drums at the end of the straight sometimes getting the car to break loose.

These cars are jump turning when its fast.

[King1]

I got to watch vic hill dyno one of Zack dohm’s motors once. It was like 767. Then they used calculated horsepower by simulating sea level conditions. Then it’s went like 880. 900hp is a fluke if you ask me

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I dyno engines on the regular and I have never had a correction factor over 1.04.

[billetbirdcage]

767 to 880 is 15% correction. While I am close to sea level at 1000ft or so, the highest correction factor I've seen on my own dyno is 4% and that's when it's like 100 degree's out side and high humidity. Where was they dyno'ing at mount everest? Even at Denver correction is typically at 10%

[grt74]

we have a machine shop in the area, we consider it very conservative, I've seen some 800 - 830 hp 430's , but haven't seen a wide bore on it, but I'm going to say about 850-900hp on a 450, torque is the big winner with the wide bore

[Rocky]

767 to 880 is 15% correction. While I am close to sea level at 1000ft or so, the highest correction factor I've seen on my own dyno is 4% and that's when it's like 100 degree's out side and high humidity. Where was they dyno'ing at mount everest? Even at Denver correction is typically at 10%


Have you had any Chad Speier head stuff on your dyno? Do you know Chad? I see your location, that’s why I ask.

[hucktyson]

Porting to make monster flow numbers and big HP and Porting to make winning dirt late model stuff isn’t the same thing. The top builders win all of the races for a reason ....

[Rocky]

I’m quitting and going drag racing though....

[chupp n bloomer fan]

My Dad always preached for years, them big numbers don’t mean anything. It has to be driveable and smooth.

One of you guys mentioned restrictor plates, they use spacers and restrictors now. Early in the night, usually let her breath. Then as the night goes on, back it off.

[Rocky]

Lol, I am not trying to come up with a recipe to win late model races out of my garage. I have been that drunk, but I quit drinking 2 years ago. I am still interested in engines though. I know how that goes, I got the shirt.

[billetbirdcage]

Rocky, I know who Chad is but don't know him personally. No, I haven't dyno'ed any of his stuff as I haven't dyno'ed anything but personal stuff and even then it's been years since I've done any dyno'ing as I don't do much engine stuff anymore.

[ZERO25]

QUOTE:Porting to make monster flow numbers and big HP and Porting to make winning dirt late model stuff isn’t the same thing. The top builders win all of the races for a reason ....

Based on your on track endeavors, it appears you have experience only with that coming from a 525 crate!

By all means, keep posting your "expert" opinion though!

[hucktyson]

You still have to drive the car .... No matter how smart you are about the mechanical aspects of the race car you still have to drive it .... how many late model wins as a driver does Andy Durham or Jack Cornett have ? How many late model wins does Kevin Rumley or Ronnie Stuckey have as a driver ? How many of the guys who are good race 200 laps a year or less ?? Or maybe ask me why I haven’t been racing very often since 2005 ??

[Necrosis]

767 to 880 is 15% correction. While I am close to sea level at 1000ft or so, the highest correction factor I've seen on my own dyno is 4% and that's when it's like 100 degree's out side and high humidity. Where was they dyno'ing at mount everest? Even at Denver correction is typically at 10%Unfortunately, I think you know why such a correction factor may have been used. It's the old SAE J:417 standard. "People standing around watching, load it hard on the upswing, apply unrealistic correction factor, look impressed" lol.

[billetbirdcage]

Unfortunately, I think you know why such a correction factor may have been used. It's the old SAE J:417 standard. "People standing around watching, load it hard on the upswing, apply unrealistic correction factor, look impressed" lol.

I'm well aware, it's said but true big/unreal number do help sell engines no matter how knowledge or educated people are on the stuff. It still influences them whether they realize it consciously or not.

If something looks off, I back calculate the BSFC numbers and see if the fuel even has that energy capability in the amount of fuel the engine used. While not 100% accurate, it's a pretty good indicator when the numbers are messed with.

The other one I like is the frictional numbers or factors some dyno's have, I never understood that one? are we not measuring output of the engine at the crank? so why would you add in correction for frictional losses. Scratches head.

*Note: Not a professional, but did stay in a Holiday Inn last night

[Rocky]

I'm well aware, it's said but true big/unreal number do help sell engines no matter how knowledge or educated people are on the stuff. It still influences them whether they realize it consciously or not.

If something looks off, I back calculate the BSFC numbers and see if the fuel even has that energy capability in the amount of fuel the engine used. While not 100% accurate, it's a pretty good indicator when the numbers are messed with.

The other one I like is the frictional numbers or factors some dyno's have, I never understood that one? are we not measuring output of the engine at the crank? so why would you add in correction for frictional losses. Scratches head.

*Note: Not a professional, but did stay in a Holiday Inn last night


I have a friend that has a BMW with a turbo the size of a shop vac on it. He really wanted to put the limited on his friend’s chassis dyno. I told him that there really wasn’t a point to do that. Yeah I could do some tuning, but it wouldn’t be an impressive number if that’s what he’s looking to see. 350, 400 maybe. I told him right before he got banned at the strip for not having a cage, we don’t race dynos man.

45 psi boost if you’re wondering 😳

[fastford]

thats a lot of boost rocky , he has some good stuff to stand that much , i am helping a kid here locally with a stock suspension mustang with a 4.6 and a huge single turbo also , car weighs 3700 lbs and he went a 5.50 in the 1/8 last week end on 32 lbs , he is wanting to go 5.30s so were going back in it this winter and upgrade every thing possible and hoping to bump up to around 38 lbs which should get him where he wants to be.....

[Rocky]

thats a lot of boost rocky , he has some good stuff to stand that much , i am helping a kid here locally with a stock suspension mustang with a 4.6 and a huge single turbo also , car weighs 3700 lbs and he went a 5.50 in the 1/8 last week end on 32 lbs , he is wanting to go 5.30s so were going back in it this winter and upgrade every thing possible and hoping to bump up to around 38 lbs which should get him where he wants to be.....

He’s on about his 5th transmission but the motor is built to take it. Now it is anyway.

[Jking24]

We chassis dyno'd a all steel roller 358 on methanol that ran extremely well at a local import shop and it made something like 540-560 but it was pig rich and were asked to leave before we made any changes. on the account it was rattling stuff off the walls lol. The shop owner came running in the dyno cell yelling "why are they turning it so hard" on a warm up pull that was like 7200rpm. But point is i would put that combo up against any all steel 360 or less engine out their in confidence that it would hold its own

[Rocky]

We chassis dyno'd a all steel roller 358 on methanol that ran extremely well at a local import shop and it made something like 540-560 but it was pig rich and were asked to leave before we made any changes. on the account it was rattling stuff off the walls lol. The shop owner came running in the dyno cell yelling "why are they turning it so hard" on a warm up pull that was like 7200rpm. But point is i would put that combo up against any all steel 360 or less engine out their in confidence that it would hold its own

I might be making a little more than I said, but I don’t have proof. You guys run really good I have only ever seen your rear spoiler though...

[ZERO25]

QUOTE:You still have to drive the car .... No matter how smart you are about the mechanical aspects of the race car you still have to drive it .... how many late model wins as a driver does Andy Durham or Jack Cornett have ? How many late model wins does Kevin Rumley or Ronnie Stuckey have as a driver ? How many of the guys who are good race 200 laps a year or less ?? Or maybe ask me why I haven’t been racing very often since 2005 ??

The real question is how many wins you got as a driver or consultant! They might have you beat by a race.....err,a thousand, or more!

[hucktyson]

I haven’t won a feature since 2004 .... 2005 my dad started on dialysis and my construction business got super busy , along with my only guy who helped during the week and at the track decided he wanted to start hanging out at his camp instead of working on race cars. I’ve literally got 38 laps on this XR1 car , first night a primary jet fell out in the heat and prp the distributor rotor broke in the heat. Considering I wasn’t even going to race this year and then my dad died on August 21 so I decided I was going to eldora , after eldora I decided I was finally buying another rocket. I worked 8 straight 16 hour days by myself to get that car ready for Pittsburgh only to have the jet fall out. At least let me run the car a few times before you run your mouth, A lot of people are going to be surprised in 2020 ...

[Rocky]

Sorry about your Dad Huck.

[ZERO25]

Sorry for your loss. I have lost mine as well!

But you started all this with your condescending attitude on here a few years ago. Most of us who have been on here for a while know all about the BG episode!

A little humbleness on your part would go a long way!

[Rocky]

Here’s what ya do. Go on your FB page, offer to hire a couple guys and let them live on cots in the back of the shop. Pay them Kraft Mac and cheese and promise to work them to death and ship them out if they have any ideas or attitudes. Mostly just have them doing pee-on work, but make it sound better than that. That’ll free you up to do more important stuff around there. Idea stolen from some dude over in Tennessee.

[Jking24]

Rocky i suspected or paths may have crossed from some of the tracks you mention. Where have we raced with you before. And i assume your not talking about my personal car but some of the people i help lol

[Rocky]

Rocky i suspected or paths may have crossed from some of the tracks you mention. Where have we raced with you before. And i assume your not talking about my personal car but some of the people i help lol

Dixieland and Clary’s. You guys are the K1 car outta Delaware right? I am that lapper in that ancient red 97 late model. Also I’m the crew chief for the 2 super street at Dixieland.

[Rocky]

I am the big dude, not that younser that runs around talking to everybody. That’s Chris. Lol.

[Jking24]

No i think your talking about the 1kb kerry king and i have no relation to them. I haven't had my own car out in a few years 4 to be exact. But i mainly help a guy named kyle lear. We race a little further north mostly

[Jking24]

I would love to talk to you about Dixieland. Im thinking about venturing down that way next year if your interested pm me

[Rocky]

Okay then we’ve walked by each other at Potomac a billion times about 10 years ago when I was stationed at Pax River. I will shoot you a PM.

[Jking24]

Yes im sure we did back then i helped a guy named paul cursey 37 limited car. Most people thought i was his son

[Rocky]

I remember that car. I was driving in the small junk car division back then.

[Kromulous]

GRT74 commented about the Wide Bores and torque, we have a 450 Wide Bore and its right in the HP Range he stated, and the Torque is very high. It runs well, buts very hard to deal with that torque on a slick track, we are always back tuning it. Spent all year fighting it, but never got it right. Next step is a 390 cfm carb.

Its fun when the track is heavy, we went to L-burg this year and the track was racey and that engine will fly, but that torque is a problem in the slick. We never really got a handle on how to gear it.

[old_wedge_nut]

Sorry for your loss. Met your Dad in the pits at PPMS in 17 and talked to him for a while. Cool dude...

[Jking24]

GRT74 commented about the Wide Bores and torque, we have a 450 Wide Bore and its right in the HP Range he stated, and the Torque is very high. It runs well, buts very hard to deal with that torque on a slick track, we are always back tuning it. Spent all year fighting it, but never got it right. Next step is a 390 cfm carb.Its fun when the track is heavy, we went to L-burg this year and the track was racey and that engine will fly, but that torque is a problem in the slick. We never really got a handle on how to gear it. i don't like gearing down the big motors in the slick. When you do loose traction and you will your wheel speed is even higher so it's even harder to get it back under control

[Kromulous]

Yes, condolences to you and your Family Huck, always enjoyed your posts etc.

Anyway on the gearing, we been playing with the gearing up, Bigger number. I know thats backwards, but i call it gearing up, bigger numbers. Choke off the air, and gear it up, it helps but still hit or miss.

[Rocky]

I wouldn’t suggest it but the old timers used to pull a plug wire.

[Jk19]

Some just unhook the back barrels on the carb

[billetbirdcage]

Some just unhook the back barrels on the carb

Doesn't help, when you never crack the secondaries anyways. Once slicked off, I rarely see data that shows over 40 to 50% throttle. Least on the guys I work with that have good engines and are capable of winning 5K+ races.

[fastford]

hey billet , you ever fooled with the ratio on the secondaries ? reason i ask , several years ago , i made a secondary linkage plate that i could adjust the ratio , it helped with inexperienced drivers , but in the end , it is still a throttle feel thing and a driver that can feel the back tires dont need it or even undo the secondaries for that matter.....

[Rocky]

I know that you have tried it, does it help to back a little timing out of it? Or could you run really stiff advance springs with light centrifugal weights and not let it come all the way in until about 400-4500?

[fastford]

i like weaker springs where it will total quick , the best thing , if it is allowed , is a timing control unit mounted inside the drivers compartment that you can take timing away as needed while on the track , last one i bought was about 50 bucks , but its been a while......

[Rocky]

i like weaker springs where it will total quick , the best thing , if it is allowed , is a timing control unit mounted inside the drivers compartment that you can take timing away as needed while on the track , last one i bought was about 50 bucks , but its been a while......

That’s how I set mine up, but I don’t have big power with just a 358.

[Rocky]

I am sure it’s been done if I can think of it lol.