WEIGHT vs HORSEPOWER

[perfconn]

In a limited late model.If you can run 100# lighter,how much hp can you afford to give up and still be competetive ? Tires & spoiler being the same.

[MLR19]

Super: EST 850 hp:

2350 lb / 850 hp = 2.764 lb per hp
2250 lb /2.764 lb per hp = 814 hp

604 Crate Est 435HP:
2350 lb / 435 hp = 5.40 lb per hp
2250lb /5.40 lb per hp = 416 hp

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Good question. I'm used to giving up power because of budget alone. So, I can only tell you it can be done without a weight break.

[perfconn]

If it were drag racing I could tell you exactly.100# is worth a tenth in a quarter & .06 in an 1/8 mile.Maybe somebody can translate that into dirt track.

[CCHIEF]

Cubic inch being equal? I couldn't put a # on it. Depends on WHOM your competition is, track type/layout, surface and condition of it and weather conditions run in.....appropriateness of tire. Hard spec tires? And of course the ballasst behind the wheel! Grin

[let-r-eat]

100 pound could be priceless if both have enough power

[billetbirdcage]

Too remotely answer the question you first need to know if all the power the heavier car has can be used.
Then I would venture to say somewhere around what HP they can put down would be the number.

It's really not an easy question to answer as the track changes and so does HP demand. It's almost impossible to make the cars even in all conditions. Usually the lower power/light wieght is at a fair disadvantage in the traction and usually has an advantage in the slick (least as far as what rules tracks end up with)

[Krooser]

Back in the stone age when I started we ran 4000# 57-64 Fords against 2600# Tri-Five Chevies. Fords were built from water pipe while the fast Chevies were made from exhaust tubing.

The winningist driver on the circuit, Frank Smith, won 11 track championships and six or seven area championship which was the total points from three tracks.

Frank ran '57-'58 Fords with 312 Y-block or 406 FE engines. The rules dictated open rear ends, 6 1/4 inch tires but no engine restrictions. We ran one 289 in '71 the rest were 427's.

[fastford]

the old man that helped me get started was winning races in the 60,s with an old flat head ford when most every one else had gone to the ohv chevy , and its obvious the chevy,s probably had more power.....

[over4T]

Last season the area Limited Lates let us run with them at a couple of tracks. They're all four bar, 2,350 pound full LM chassis with a 604 or a built 406 on a 2 barrel and 11" D55s. Our Camaro clipped, leaf springed Pro Stock with 8" Dirt Bozz and a home built 383 on a 500 2 barrel has to weigh 3,000 and we gave them fits. Three seconds in the mains (never won), and were 2nd in points at one track until the last race when carb problems took us out.

Interestingly, even with our success running against them we were usually the only Pro Stock to try it. So, yeah, weight and HP ain't always the answer. Like fastford's example I was beating ohv stuff with a flathead until the end of the '60s, though mostly the overweight big engines; big Cadillacs, Olds, Chryslers, etc. Took them a while to figure out that a big heavy engine on the front of an old Ford straight axle made an evil handling beast. When the light weight small blocks took over my flatheads were toast.

[Mopar DLM]

If I get to pick the placement of the weight and the weight break is not excessive I will take the power everytime. If I need to dial it back a little later in the night I can but I can't handle being on the mat knowing I have everything I got on the ground and watching the other guy just drive away.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If I get to pick the placement of the weight and the weight break is not excessive I will take the power everytime. If I need to dial it back a little later in the night I can but I can't handle being on the mat knowing I have everything I got on the ground and watching the other guy just drive away.

That just doesn't happen much on dirt.

[fastford]

the traction enhancers we have to day are making it happen more than it did say , 10 yrs ago....

[Mopar DLM]

The original post was about a limited late model not necessarily the 900+HP unlimited budget late model racing of a national series. So traction shouldn't be as big of an issue. If it's limited VS crate then I take the extra torque and pull the crate 3 car lengths off every turn.

[ZERO25]

Bronson made his name a few years ago, outrunning those limiteds(550-600hp) with his 604! fact!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Bronson made his name a few years ago, outrunning those limiteds(550-600hp) with his 604! fact!

People still underestimate the power of corner speed.

[perfconn]

I'm not a racer,but here are the numbers.Built many of each,so numbers are real.
Raised runner steelhead-685hp @2400#
Standard runner Mullins steel head-632hp@ 2300#
Standard runner Brodix Track 1 aluminum head-649hp @ 2300#
Don' t need a lot of variables thrown in,just make a choice.All on same tire,all same ci, same carb.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'd take #3 every day.

[billetbirdcage]

I'd take #3 every day.

AGREED!

message to short adding text here to post, lol

[CCHIEF]

AGREED! message to short adding text here to post, lol Me three on number three!

[ZERO25]

On a 50lap slick track, ill take Kyle Bronson and his 604! (not because ima fan)

[Mopar DLM]

count me in for #3

[perfconn]

Word of caution.If you walked into engine shop & these 3 engines were setting there,all were new & all were the same price,if you had local tracks that did not allow the aluminum head,,then your choice might change.I am asking you to make a choice where these were all legal.
Now for zero25.If there were 3 foot ditches every 10 foot I would take Jimmy Owens on a tricycle.

[billetbirdcage]

.If there were 3 foot ditches every 10 foot I would take Jimmy Owens on a tricycle.

Dan schlieper for the win on that one, He's probably the best I ever seen on bad rough tracks.

[fastford]

I'm not a racer,but here are the numbers.Built many of each,so numbers are real.
Raised runner steelhead-685hp @2400#
Standard runner Mullins steel head-632hp@ 2300#
Standard runner Brodix Track 1 aluminum head-649hp @ 2300#
Don' t need a lot of variables thrown in,just make a choice.All on same tire,all same ci, same carb.

all three have enough hp , but with three identical cars on same track and same driver , its a no brainer , #3 every time for me....its hard to beat eliminating noes weight.....

[President Clinton]

I'm not a racer,but here are the numbers.Built many of each,so numbers are real.
Raised runner steelhead-685hp @2400#
Standard runner Mullins steel head-632hp@ 2300#
Standard runner Brodix Track 1 aluminum head-649hp @ 2300#
Don' t need a lot of variables thrown in,just make a choice.All on same tire,all same ci, same carb.

That’s pretty much limited rules around us, with all aluminum “525” as 4th option.
525 wins 98% of the time

[perfconn]

In the topless outlaw series last year that has all those engine options,the 525's didn't win a single race.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

In the topless outlaw series last year that has all those engine options,the 525's didn't win a single race.

What does the 525 have to weigh? How much weight goes in front of the midplate?

[perfconn]

WEIGHT
• 2250 lbs -604/602/ Flat Tappet Sportsman Engine
• 2300 lbs -Standard runner heads (Steel and Aluminum)
• 2400 lbs -Raised runner Steelheads
• 2350 lbs -CT 525 Crate

• CT 525 MUST have 50 lbs in front of bell housing

[billetbirdcage]

The thing that hurts the 525 (IMO) is usable RPM not being able to turn more the 7K sort of hurts the torque multiplication from a tall gear to keep rpm in check.

[President Clinton]

In the topless outlaw series last year that has all those engine options,the 525's didn't win a single race.

Not sure “fuel” 525s ran many Topless races. I know Kenny Collins ran one and contended for the lead???? He also won pretty much every limited show in the southeast he entered with that 525 per DirtonDirt?

[perfconn]

Kenny is a really good driver but the facts don't change.The 525's didn't win a single race against the other engine options in the topless outlaw series.

[President Clinton]

Kenny is a really good driver but the facts don't change.The 525's didn't win a single race against the other engine options in the topless outlaw series.

I can agree with that, but at the same time 525 won almost if not all Southeastern Late Model Series Races???? You just can’t consistently beat that fuel package with how light the motors are with an all steel motor. In the Topless series I would guess 90% were steel motors and I would also bet a large percentage will be spec aluminum heads this year???? If there was not an advantage Micheal Page would run steel instead of the 525 in the Super races that he uses his 525?

[let-r-eat]

What I see with the 525 is that the rpm window has to be smaller. I'd take 3 all day too. That 50 pound in front of the motor plate makes them at a disadvantage to a lightweight block option open engine. IMO

[let-r-eat]

The thing that hurts the 525 (IMO) is usable RPM not being able to turn more the 7K sort of hurts the torque multiplication from a tall gear to keep rpm in check.
I've found you need to gear them higher. 6. Open gearing = 6.42 525 gearing

[ZERO25]

Whitener and Bronson wear them out around my area with the 525's. Whitener was the test pilot for ,Pace causing GM to switch to forged pistons!

[fastford]

all aluminium engines should never be allowed in any limited class...JMO...

[perfconn]

Amen,brother.If they are sealed like they are supposed to be,noone would run one.

[President Clinton]

Amen,brother.If they are sealed like they are supposed to be,noone would run one.

That is what killed steel/limited in our area. Fuel/Hendren rebuilds that are not GM specs
Bone stock 525 with rpm limits are turds,but them “series” rebuilds will run like a super!

[ZERO25]

Explain......Ive never heard anything about Hendren building illegal crates!

[fastford]

nothing new here , been going on since the first 602 hit the track.....

[CCHIEF]

What is the cost of each , undressed?

[ZERO25]

What is the cost of each , undressed?

That's the cheap part!

A 602 race ready from Hendren is $8700!

[President Clinton]

Explain......Ive never heard anything about Hendren building illegal crates!

They are not illegal in the “Fuel” series. They do not meet GM specs. They have different rods, pistons,pin height, oil pump, gaskets etc...... Fuel and Southern Late Model accept this rebuild, making a stock 525 useless. Not sure if Topless Outlaw series does this or not. Call Hendren, he will tell you it is a ls style but doesn’t meet GM specs. Welcome to sealed engines

[perfconn]

525 must meet GM specs in Topless Outlaw Series

[President Clinton]

525 must meet GM specs in Topless Outlaw Series

So Hendrens Fuel series motor is wrong? I know last year they let it run?

[let-r-eat]

A 525 that doesn't meet GM specs isn't a 525 is it?

[President Clinton]

A 525 that doesn't meet GM specs isn't a 525 is it?

In the southeast there is a “fuel” series 525. Look at fuel rules, call Kenny Lamb, he wrote the rule and was the original “series “ rebuilder. Then Hendren got in the game and some “mistakes” (rod,piston height,etc...) took place, so rather than say no those motors are wrong, fuel and a lot of tracks just adopted the nonconforming 525. So in a nutshell in the southeast a 525 does not always have to meet GM specs