Who is telling the truth about SLMs?

[NorthAlabama]

Tracks, Promoters and non SLM drivers complain that SLMs steal from the track and do not support the overall picture (SLMs are a non support group local tracks state). SLMs drain the purse of money. SLMs do not draw enough of fans to pay their way. Tracks can not stay open due to the high cost of SLMs.... Now.... You have The Mag and 411 having mostly only SLMs $5000 races with no fans. Who is paying? The drivers and pit crew? Club racing ? Like a nearby track who complains that they don't make any money on SLMs but lose (ideal came from Moulton's history), with a screwed up non organized Super Series last year that was doomed to start with their rules and odd purse payout? What gives here, something doesn't add up......

[Jking24]

Your not going to get ppv for crates and u cars

[NeedforLMspeed]

SLMs do not draw enough of fans to pay their way

Oh really...


If there was a track across the road from me but didn't run LM I'd drive 2 hrs to the track that runs them

[NorthAlabama]

Like I stated, The Magnolia and 411 had each a $5000 covid 19 non race fan race this past weekend. Why do local promoters bad mouth Supers and refuse to have them due to not enough fans to support that class? Look what The Mag and 411 just did, no fans. And The Mag stopped running Supers as a normal class last year. Another run around lie?

[Rocky]

I'm not actually sure what a Super even IS anymore. If it's only cars with open motors or what? Because I've been to some tracks cough cough Oakshade.... Where a whole lot of the cars really aren't all that high dollar. Plus I've seen a lot of cars with "limited" engines run really good in "Super" races. Maybe not a Hagerstown or something. I think that it should be if you got a crate you got a crate, if you got a Vic Hill motor, you got that but if you aren't willing to run for whatever they're paying too bad go somewhere else. I get it that on a regular Saturday night that they can't afford to pay 3500 to win and $400 start money back 24 cars and our fans can't afford to pay $20-25 a ticket to cover that purse. It should be between $1500 and 2000 to win every week and $200 to start so guys can pay for fuel to get there and back. If you can't afford to race for that then you gonna have to travel a little. And you gonna have to figure out if you're really doing better money wise. And you're gonna have to figure out if you actually want to have a $65,000 motor to race for plastic trophies and beer money. Or maybe you can run a locally built 406.

Our fans are poor people, we can't ask them to pay for that but we can still have a good race for them. There's a saying that goes you're only worth what you're willing to work for. It applies here.

[kidrock]

I'm not actually sure what a Super even IS anymore. If it's only cars with open motors or what? Because I've been to some tracks cough cough Oakshade.... Where a whole lot of the cars really aren't all that high dollar. Plus I've seen a lot of cars with "limited" engines run really good in "Super" races. Maybe not a Hagerstown or something. I think that it should be if you got a crate you got a crate, if you got a Vic Hill motor, you got that but if you aren't willing to run for whatever they're paying too bad go somewhere else. I get it that on a regular Saturday night that they can't afford to pay 3500 to win and $400 start money back 24 cars and our fans can't afford to pay $20-25 a ticket to cover that purse. It should be between $1500 and 2000 to win every week and $200 to start so guys can pay for fuel to get there and back. If you can't afford to race for that then you gonna have to travel a little. And you gonna have to figure out if you're really doing better money wise. And you're gonna have to figure out if you actually want to have a $65,000 motor to race for plastic trophies and beer money. Or maybe you can run a locally built 406.

Our fans are poor people, we can't ask them to pay for that but we can still have a good race for them. There's a saying that goes you're only worth what you're willing to work for. It applies here.

Very well said Rocky!!

[3 wide]

There is a formula for running late models on a weekly basis but it doesn't include running everything you can drag in the pits that is the big problem.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Local slm is dying. Tracks that do run them weekly have no car counts to speak of. The ones that do are from owners that have been in dirt racing a long time. Most run the higher paying local shows, and truthfully it's a good deal for both owners and promotors. As fans you now need to travel to see a half decent local slm show. Or you wait and catch a lucas or WoO show that you can get too.

[Rocky]

Local slm is dying. Tracks that do run them weekly have no car counts to speak of. The ones that do are from owners that have been in dirt racing a long time. Most run the higher paying local shows, and truthfully it's a good deal for both owners and promotors. As fans you now need to travel to see a half decent local slm show. Or you wait and catch a lucas or WoO show that you can get too.

Where I live, local Super racing is dead, has been for years. But here's the rub: if I take my limited to a Ultimate race (that I admit I only run like 5 times a year), I get a whopping 50# weight break for the 358 motor we ain't got camaro clips and leaf springs anymore. It's a super with a (sometimes) smaller engine. On a 1/4 mile a good limited is just as fast. As long as you don't have a driver that sucks like me driving it. So the question is: Or is it?

The next question is, how much of this is really necessary?

I don't have the answers really but I feel like you should be able to win a local late model race with about a $25,000 motor. I haven't ever asked anybody how much it costs to buy a 604 and then get it cheated up. Probably about 14k.

What if we broke the seals off those motors, put good pistons and rods in them and ported the heads and intakes instead?

If you had a 383 with aluminium heads in 89, guess what you had, a Super that's what.

I'm rambling here but the bottom line is out on the little tiny bullrings there's plenty of race tracks that are selling Super Late Models that are not quite what the program says. Even some with legendary racing.

[kazual]

It’s fairly easy, if it makes economic sense it will happen. My belief is that the $5000 to win pay per view events we’ve seen recently were somewhat experimental by promoters to see if it could work. I have no idea how much promoters get from PPV. It likely varies a lot but there sure is a proliferation of them recently.

[Kromulous]

I think the notion that tracks cant survive without SLMs is dangerously wrong.

Look out at the Midwest, nothing but Mods, even crate mods are taking off now. USMTS, IMCA etc etc

Crate LMs dont even really exist in a lot of areas out there, and the tracks are making it and still racing.

SLMs are evolving into a Special event type class, Regional level racers will only exist in another 2 or so years. The purse for a local show cant support a SLM, simple as that.

Look at it this way, a new top shelf SLM, Touring level 80 to 100k ?? roughly, how much money is gonna take for you to start it, and run it wide open? What about a nice regional level car, a couple years old, say 40 to 50k? how much to do the same? the math isnt there. We had about 30k in a local level SLM and was trying to contend for $1200 to win, its bad math all the way around.

[NeedforLMspeed]

I think the touring level is a little higher than that.

[mcarter815]

The track near me that pays the most to the sport mod class doesn't run any late models. It also has great car counts in the mods, sport mods, stock cars, and 4-cylinders that it runs weekly and the stands are usually half full most weeks. SLMs are cool, but they aren't necessary for a track to survive.

[dirtSLMracing]

We have discussed the cost in SLM racing many times.. but I still think if you bring the cost down then the car counts would increase big time. I think the best way to go is a spec shock. Im not smart enough to have all the answers but if all the cars were on $100 shocks would fans know the difference? Always could pull one off the top three to make sure it has not been tampered with. Limit the choices, maybe a standard and a stiff, that's your choice. Work with it and move bars and go racing. ONCE again, I dont claim to have all the answers.. just a suggestion.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

We have discussed the cost in SLM racing many times.. but I still think if you bring the cost down then the car counts would increase big time. I think the best way to go is a spec shock. Im not smart enough to have all the answers but if all the cars were on $100 shocks would fans know the difference? Always could pull one off the top three to make sure it has not been tampered with. Limit the choices, maybe a standard and a stiff, that's your choice. Work with it and move bars and go racing. ONCE again, I dont claim to have all the answers.. just a suggestion.

People make shocks expensive. I just had 2 complete sets of Ohlins redone for $1600. One set was a pile of trash I took a chance on and they ended up needing a lot of parts. Despite their age, the shocks are still the same internals as what Jimmy Owens is killing people with.

It would cost 50 stacks to buy Jimmy's engine and $12k to freshen it.

[Josh Bayko]

Tracks that run more than one class of late models are cutting the nose off all of them.

[dirtSLMracing]

Mastersbilt..

I know engines are expensive.. my counter to that is not all tracks take a big motor. Guy with a good limited can be competitive at some tracks but get beat on $5000 shock packages. Not saying my shock idea is awesome just a thought.

[Waldo]

Two things you need.
#1. A stop watch
#2. Air pressure gauge.
You will see the truth.

[Waldo]

If tracks posted qualifying times for Crates and supers that ran at that track on the same night you would see.

[Jim11h]

Super latemodel is a class in which aluminum or steel fits and rules are limited to allow almost any combination of car motor suspension chassis design etc.

Crate, limited, etc have more specific rules!

Lots of areas the tracks have 3-4 classes that all look identical and that kills the headliner in this situation. Super, limited, 604, & 602 all at same track in own divisions, you really think the casual fan knows difference? All they know is its a latemodel

[Highside Hustler25]

I remember crates trying to compete at FC years ago. The times just weren't there. Some have tried it on the Hell tour before also with little success.

[Waldo]

I went to a race in S.C.... I won't name the track, dosen't matter. It was early March this year if I remember correctly. Long story short, there were like 25 super Lates there and around 25 Crates. Well the guy who sat on the pole for the Crate feature ran a lap that would have qualified him in like 10th place in the Super feature that paid $10,000 to win. I noticed the time he set but nobody else did......

[Waldo]

Also in the South in the Blue Ridge Outlaw Latemodel series, guys in crates and 525 motors out run supers weekly. The series runs all of them combined.

[Waldo]

Ricky Weeks won like 13 races in the series a couple of years ago running a 525 all season long. Mind you it was like a 30 race schedule.

[fryefan]

Except for a few exceptions, open late models are regionally or nationally sanctioned. Weekly late model programs are mainly crate late models or limited late models.

Financially that makes sense for most promoters.

[Waldo]

It should also make sense to local drivers, but just as I posted above, for some it don't. They spend thousands more than some other local guys who are beating them on weekly bases.

[Jim11h]

Nobody ever got into racing saying I'll be happy retiring from 4cyl, hobby stock, or even crate latemodel. Everyone pinnacle different but in latemodel world it's a super, just sayin! But y'all keep twisting the bs how ever you like to make fit your theory

[nc mudcat]

Also in the South in the Blue Ridge Outlaw Latemodel series, guys in crates and 525 motors out run supers weekly. The series runs all of them combined.

My favorite touring series, bar none. You got a car, you can run with us. It doesn't pay much, so the big guns ain't coming, which makes it even better for competition. They put on fantastic races!

[EvelB7]

The Blue Ridge Outlaw group is good for the area, but I will tell you- go to Wythe without a super motor and you are in the way.... Most tracks they run the limited or 525 takes the money. (not many true Supers show up).

[Krooser]

Do what we did years ago...everybody ran the same class.... Poor boys, rich guys and those who couldn't tell the difference.

Group qualify and put the slower cars in the B main.

I'd sooner see 30 cars in one class than 30 cars split between 3 or 4.

[Kromulous]

I know people like to think Crates and 525s can "Run" with Supers, but when the track is ripe in heat races and qualifying, your a sitting duck. You can never overcome the bad qualifying, its all about the Heat races, making the transfer spot.

Sure in the Feature they can, because the track slicks off. Evens out the engines. A SLM engine, say 875 Hp, 99% of time in the Features we are DE-tuning them, 390 cfm carbs, restrictor plates, uncouple the 4 barrel and run on 2. We put a taller gear in so your running above the peak power and torque curves etc etc. There are all kinds of tricks. But the reality is, if you do not qualify well your suffering, and your chances to win are greatly diminished.

Whats the Answer? Who knows but i think it will take a Industry wide effort. Unless that Industry wants SLMs to be a Special Event only type of deal, and that may be there intent, let them be that wide open, raw power type class.

Personally i think current SLM racing, Touring level, Heat Races are boring, all it is 900hp hold it to the floor and hope a guy screws up so you can pass a car. If you dont start on the front 2 rows, your B main bound, most of the time.

[Highside Hustler25]

I know people like to think Crates and 525s can "Run" with Supers, but when the track is ripe in heat races and qualifying, your a sitting duck. You can never overcome the bad qualifying, its all about the Heat races, making the transfer spot. The reality is, if you do not qualify well your suffering, and your chances to win are greatly diminished.

100% correct right there. And I've never seen a slicked off track for qualifying. Most times I witnessed crates competing was because of low car counts at a few tracks. They were a full 2 seconds off of fast time but made the A Main because of the lack of cars. I don't have to tell you where they finished.

[Highside Hustler25]

My favorite touring series, bar none. You got a car, you can run with us. It doesn't pay much, so the big guns ain't coming, which makes it even better for competition. They put on fantastic races!

Not knocking your series out there. Probably does produce great racing. But that 3rd sentence says it all.

[Fully Torqued]

The cars are too expensive and there isn't enough interest and fans out there to help the track afford a high payout. Seems people only really care about Lucas Oil and WOO when it comes to late models. Weekly racing is a local, community thing. When the cars get too expensive you push out the people in the local community and you end up with a few REALLY fast super late models lapping guys with outdated stuff just attempting to keep up. The interest isn't there for SLM weekly racing and there aren't enough filthy rich people interested in racing them. Pretty sure fans and people in the pits at weekly races are there to see their friends and family race, not some yuppie yahoo that shows up in a stacker just because he can.

[mcarter815]

100% correct right there. And I've never seen a slicked off track for qualifying. Most times I witnessed crates competing was because of low car counts at a few tracks. They were a full 2 seconds off of fast time but made the A Main because of the lack of cars. I don't have to tell you where they finished.

Tracks need to get rid of qualifying. I don't remember ever having qualifying when we had supers running weekly here.

[mcarter815]

Nobody ever got into racing saying I'll be happy retiring from 4cyl, hobby stock, or even crate latemodel. Everyone pinnacle different but in latemodel world it's a super, just sayin! But y'all keep twisting the bs how ever you like to make fit your theory

Maybe for the racers that have a rich daddy. We got into racing expecting to run whatever we can afford and not trying to do more than that.

[NeedforLMspeed]

The cost of weekly local racing not in any form of LM racing to even be somewhat competitive is out of control.

[Fully Torqued]

Maybe for the racers that have a rich daddy. We got into racing expecting to run whatever we can afford and not trying to do more than that.No kidding. For most racers, the idea of racing a SLM isn't even a thing. It's unrealistic to evenn humor the idea. Only way is if someone offered you a ride.

[let-r-eat]

I was just out to the campground last week. The $50K plus campers and boats were everywhere I tell ya. They were paying all kinds of money for those camping spots and boat certifications and licenses and such. I didn't hear 1 person bitching about not getting paid enough.

Hobby racing isn't a professional racing endeavor. You have professional racers and then you have hobby racers. People confuse the two all the time. Hobby racers are lucky that they can get back a few bucks here and there for putting on something for a fan.

SLM has become more of a professional racers class. The hobby racing a SLM is what has left the building most likely completely naked.

[Waldo]

Hell, I don't know anybody local to me who has ever retired racing a Latemodel. You know why? Because it dosen't exist. And when N.C. Mudcat said that the Blue ridge series dosen't pay much, that was totaly directed for the South. That Series pays as good as Supers running in the Midwest on a weekly bases.

[mcarter815]

I was just out to the campground last week. The $50K plus campers and boats were everywhere I tell ya. They were paying all kinds of money for those camping spots and boat certifications and licenses and such. I didn't hear 1 person bitching about not getting paid enough.

Hobby racing isn't a professional racing endeavor. You have professional racers and then you have hobby racers. People confuse the two all the time. Hobby racers are lucky that they can get back a few bucks here and there for putting on something for a fan.

SLM has become more of a professional racers class. The hobby racing a SLM is what has left the building most likely completely naked.

Those campers don't depreciate as fast as an SLM does. They're also likely mostly financed. You could get a brand new SLM and total it the first night out and it's not going to be insured.

[Waldo]

And I guess somebody didn't see when I said a CRATE LATEMODEL qualified 10th out of 25 supers on a wet TACKY track.

[nc mudcat]

Not knocking your series out there. Probably does produce great racing. But that 3rd sentence says it all.

It does say it all, but the question is what does that mean to most people. For those of us that just want good racing, we don't need to see the big dogs every week. I don't care if the guy I am watching has never been heard of. And it means more to me when I do get to see the big dogs.

I am also not hung up on supers like so many are. For me, I want to see the best racing. At my local track, that is not supers. The track can't handle the supers and it gets so dusty you can't see them. I'll take 604s over that any day. On the right track, give me supers, but not on my local track.

[Jim11h]

Sounds like your local track needs fixed not dumbed down

[Waldo]

What is your local track?
Do they run supers weekly?
What is the pay?
Who has retired racing supers there?

[nc mudcat]

Sounds like your local track needs fixed not dumbed down

Okay, call the promoter and tell him. Everyone around here has already tried that, to no avail. So I stand by the fact that I want to see the best races. If it is not supers, then I am good with it. Why would anyone avoid a good crate race (yes, I realize some think there is no such thing, and you have the right to be wrong) because there is no super race? Just makes no sense to me.

Again, I love the supers, and will travel to see them at the right track. I make several trips every year to Wythe to see supers race, and they put on a great show there. But I won't swear off racing just because there are no supers on a particular night on my home track.

[Rocky]

Mastersbilt..

I know engines are expensive.. my counter to that is not all tracks take a big motor. Guy with a good limited can be competitive at some tracks but get beat on $5000 shock packages. Not saying my shock idea is awesome just a thought.

I have about $5000 in my shocks and I'm the worst driver in North Carolina. Now would making them illegal save me any money?

There isn't really anything wrong with your idea. The problem is just that the guys with the money are gonna spend it to stomp our azz. Always have, always will. Heck if I was smart enough I could out fox those guys, I'd just hire a good driver and beat them. I wouldn't tell the world how to stop them.

I think that the illusion that there's some sort of parity has evaporated and the top 10 teams in the country are so far above all on a mountaintop that it clouds everything else.

Would it make all these guys here on 4m feel better if the "Super" feature was still called the "A" main and the Limited or 604 race was called the "B main" and the 602 race was called the "C" main? Because it's the same, it's always been the same.

What skin off of anybody's hind end is it that these guys have their own feature?

Some of these guys don't go to weekly races anyway, so who really cares just watch a PPV Lucas race with a cold one and enjoy then when the traveling circus comes to town, go watch. There's a few millionaires that are down with running the big show for all. We can be thankful for those guys but a lot of fans need to understand why the local guy isn't showing up to be the Washington Generals anymore or is choosing a different division. It's all good there's a place for all of it.

[Rocky]

Super latemodel is a class in which aluminum or steel fits and rules are limited to allow almost any combination of car motor suspension chassis design etc.

Crate, limited, etc have more specific rules!

Lots of areas the tracks have 3-4 classes that all look identical and that kills the headliner in this situation. Super, limited, 604, & 602 all at same track in own divisions, you really think the casual fan knows difference? All they know is its a latemodel

Yes, I am aware of the rules differences. What I'm not really aware of is how many actual Super Late models there really are. 400, 500 maybe? (I think that number is too big)

I can tell you for sure that when you get out into some places in the country that there's cars running as Supers that absolutely positively would be limiteds in the South.

Would you like to see the 602 class bodied in vintage Camaro bodies? That could be cool.

Maybe we rename the divisions A-B-C and allow advancement for more money into the next feature race but maintain points funds separately. Present the illusion.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Hell, I don't know anybody local to me who has ever retired racing a Latemodel. You know why? Because it dosen't exist. And when N.C. Mudcat said that the Blue ridge series dosen't pay much, that was totaly directed for the South. That Series pays as good as Supers running in the Midwest on a weekly bases.

We can race for $2k+ every Saturday night, on a local show, around here.

[EvelB7]

The Blue Ridge Outlaws does a good job and has its place around here (NC area). Biggest issue is they have is their shows are spread out a little to far for the car base (from North Georgia to Beckley and down to Sumter), hard for them to get many to follow the complete series because of this.

[Waldo]

Masterbilt racer, The mmsa stock 4's down here race for $1,000 to $1,500 to win ever week.

[Waldo]

Fwd, U cars have 10 to 12 races a year within a 100 mile radius of my house every year paying over $1,000 to win.

[Waldo]

Let's see.........................
$50,000 late model
$2,000 4 cylinder

I guess it makes sense............................................. .................not

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Masterbilt racer, The mmsa stock 4's down here race for $1,000 to $1,500 to win ever week.

Looks like blue ridge doesn't.

[Waldo]

They do, and again good job spending $50,000 to win $2,000. ...........BRAVO

[Jking24]

People make shocks expensive. I just had 2 complete sets of Ohlins redone for $1600. One set was a pile of trash I took a chance on and they ended up needing a lot of parts. Despite their age, the shocks are still the same internals as what Jimmy Owens is killing people with. It would cost 50 stacks to buy Jimmy's engine and $12k to freshen it.Totally off the current subject but I'm really glad to see ohlins get back in the game. They were by far the most reliable and durable shocks we have ever run.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

They do, and again good job spending $50,000 to win $2,000. ...........BRAVO

Spend $50k? Never spent $20k.

[Waldo]

Alright man. I respect you. Guess i was just saying the spending in forms of racing dosen"t add up to me. If you can run a Late model program under 20 thousand, I respect that. You got to understand from my point of view, their are guys running what you would call hobby stock spending that.

[NorthAlabama]

It still begs the question, Supers were common in this area. Is it un-organized management who has managed themselves into more problems and higher cost? Fans want power, speed and thrills, not speaking for local family club racing. The Duck (Duck River) and The Mag (Magnolia) gave it up weekly but has specials. Fort Payne and TST (Talladega Short Track) here in Bama last year were running open motor Supers weekly. They did, why can't anybody else do it? Yes, most tacks are running Super Specials in the their season which is keeping Supers alive and the making for more touring series, than goodness. Maybe LLM at TST can tune in and give his thinking on why TST is the leading track in the South!...

[NorthAlabama]

This is a perfect example. Moulton started running in their early season I think it was last year pulling some fans with this new management needing to build the business. More than a dozen Supers, than a pay dispute about not paying the promised purse a couple of weeks later with fewer cars. Which led to only a couple of cars showing up the next time. That ended Supers, management cut that class. Then the fans left. Then management did not pay the 604s, they then cut the 604s which started a downward trend. Then a issues with paying the 602s. Do you get the picture. This is the typical fly by night management of our time, cut at the top no matter that Supers is what made racing in this area which drew the fans which kept the tracks going for years. Management don't invest in their track, but think they do. Cutting at the top is the easy way out, a sign of poor management. Also, tracks and Supers got lazy, just look at their ads? Don't see any! So everybody went to 602s and 604s to cut cost to be able to at least race nearby. We know all late models still cost an arm and a leg even without an open motor. Now it is a shock cost issue, what will be the next issue? I went to a late season race at TST with a full field of Supers, limited, 604s and 602s. But how does TST do it? Why other tracks fail?

[NorthAlabama]

One member posted that this issue has already been discussed. I disagree for political correctness got in the way of for no one wants to point fingers at promoters. The three fingers pointed at me, well, promoters took my money at the gate.

[hjr2]

Any track or promoter that blames anyone but themselves deserves to fail.

[jog49]

There is a formula for running late models on a weekly basis but it doesn't include running everything you can drag in the pits that is the big problem.

You hit the nail squarely on the head. One track I went to in years past had 8 classes and half of them had no business in a race car on a race track. The track would bring in a series and still content on running their 8 classes in addition to the featured program. One had to endure hours of torture waiting for the featured class and be there to the wee hours of the morning. It's sort of a blessing that the track is now condominiums.
Just keep in mind what I heard a man say one time. "I didn't spend good money to see slow!"