High winds and wings

[RiffRaf67]

Allstars postponed last night as an approaching thunderstorm brought high winds to the track in Lawton OK. I've been to events where wind was an issue but never canceled. Always hear someone chime in and say, and last night was no exception, hey, just take the wings off and go racing.
Anyone here ever seen this happen, where winged sprints actually shed thier wings to race?

[CIRF]

Allstars postponed last night as an approaching thunderstorm brought high winds to the track in Lawton OK. I've been to events where wind was an issue but never canceled. Always hear someone chime in and say, and last night was no exception, hey, just take the wings off and go racing.
Anyone here ever seen this happen, where winged sprints actually shed thier wings to race?
I personally have never heard of that happening. I'm not old enough to have been around for the earlier wing days when wings were just getting a foothold in sprint car racing so it may have happened back in the day. The cars are so wing/wingless specific these days I'm not sure it would even be feasible.

The closest I personally have seen to the scenario that you point out was at a track not far from Lake Okeechobee in Florida. Thundercross Park or something like that was the name of the place. It was a 3 night event and the last night was a scheduled non sanctioned winged event but they encouraged everyone who was set up to do so to put a wing on. I was in Jack Hewitt's pit that night. When the A-main was over on the second night we got the wing off of the top of the trailer and the process of changing the car over to a winger began. I had to head for Daytona that night so I couldn't stick around to see how many of the wingless guys put the wing on. Jack and Dave Darland were the only two I remember for sure that put the wing on. I'm sure there was more but I don't remember exactly how many or who.

I know that's a lot of gibber that has little to do with your original question but this instance was the first thing to come to mind.

You've got my curiosity tweaked now and I'll make a call or two and see if anyone remembers a situation like you asked about exists.

[RiffRaf67]

Always seems to get mentioned in the stands, which is my side of the track, but never have I heard of it actually happening. IF it were to ever have happened, I'd expect it was with die-hard racers like those you mentioned, hewitt, darland, etc that came there to race, conditions be danged.

[CIRF]

Always seems to get mentioned in the stands, which is my side of the track, but never have I heard of it actually happening. IF it were to ever have happened, I'd expect it was with die-hard racers like those you mentioned, hewitt, darland, etc that came there to race, conditions be danged.

You got that right, Riff.

Actually Jack won a few WoO's winged sprint car races back in the day and won a pile of All Star Circuit of Champions races with the wing on. Those were the days when Jack was driving the #63 winged 410 car for Bob Hampshire. I'm not positive but I believe Jack had the record for most ASCoC wins for a while until Dale Blaney or Joey Saldana came along. I watched Jack win an ASCoC race at Kankakee, Illinois and it was a SHOW!

I don't know if Double D won any winged races but I'd not be surprised if he did. Dave Darland and his wife Brenda have to be two of the nicest people I've ever had an opportunity to hang with.

[Late_Model_Mark]

I have been to races that were winded out a number of times. Even been to a lot of races that got called or ended early due to fog. The fog came in from the Pacific Ocean many a time.


Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

[CIRF]

I have been to races that were winded out a number of times. Even been to a lot of races that got called or ended early due to fog. The fog came in from the Pacific Ocean many a time.


Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

Mark, were the races that were winded out winged sprint car races? It's obvious the winged sprint cars would be the most vulnerable to high winds.

Speaking of fog, I was at Volusia Speedway Park one night many years ago during February Speedweeks. This took place during the time that the 1/2 mile at Volusia was paved and they had built the 1/3 mile dirt track just off of turn 4 of the paved 1/2 mile. It was one of those humid winter evenings in Florida and without warning the fog rolled in just before the dirt late model A-main. They had Tony Izzo Jr. come out and take some hot laps to get a handle on whether it was going to be safe to race the A-main. Tony pulled in and told them he wouldn't advise them to race. It was so foggy that night that you could barely make out the silhouette of Izzo's car on the backstretch. Track management determined there had been sufficient races completed to deem the night of racing a full show so they were not going to honor rain/fog checks. Needless to say there were a bunch of very pissed off race fans in the stands but I believe it was the right call. At least the part about it being unsafe to race.

Here's the real kick in the ass. I remember getting 1/2 mile east (no more than a mile) of the track on Rt. 40 on my way back to Daytona and it was crystal clear!! LOL! Hey, some nights you eat the bear! Other nights the bear eats you!

[Late_Model_Mark]

There were 3 races that got canned by wind.

In 1972 at a NHRA Division 7 race at Bonneville Raceway in Utah, Friday got winded out by a huge and super windy sandstorm. The race was in the great drag racing movie about Jim Dunn, Funny Car Summer.

In 70 at my favorite race track ever, Lions Drag Strip, it was October when the Southern California "Santa Ana" winds were prevalent. It was borderline all day for this Funny Car show, they decided to run just to the 1/8mi. instead of the full quarter, after 2 pairs it kicked in more and it was called.

Then in the late 80's at the NHRA World Finals at Pomona Raceway again in late October, Friday was canned due to winds, after the races were called for the day, shortly thereafter the wind died down but it was way to late in the day to continue with Pomona's tight curfew.

The fog, got fogged out at Ascot. At Lions they used to call some of the shows the "duel in the dew" as the track was about a mile from the Pacific and the moisture would roll in especially in June when it was called June gloom. There was a handful of shows interrupted or called due to fog.

There were 2 fog outs that came from the same track. The first fog out was in 1968 at Orange County International Raceway for the huge Manufacturers Funny Car Championships. The fog rolled in for driver/team introductions at 5:00pm. All 32 cars were on the track parked front end first toward the guardrails with the drivers standing next to their cars. 1st time ever I recall spotlights from the tower highlighted each driver. There was a sold out, standing room only crowd of 22,000 on hand. Right at 6:00pm. the first of 3 glorious rounds was set to go with the absolute best in the business ready to go and the fog came from the nearby ocean and you could not see the track at all. The traffic jam to get out was rough. We went back the next day for the race.

Another fog out at O.C.I.R was the 81 Manufacturers Funny Car meet , fog rolled in once again just as round 1 was to begin. The traffic jam getting out took over 2 hours, they completed the race the following Saturday.



Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

[over4T]

Been to a few that got blown out and a few that got fogged out but only one that got grasshoppered out. It was at the 1/2 mile paved Mesa Marin Speedway outside Bakersfield mid or late 1970s. A Winston West Nascar race when the little varmints hit the track in full Kamikaze force gooing up the windshields so badly it was zero visibility for the competitors, Radiators were clogged and the women in the grandstands were shreiking with the green bugs in their hair.

I thought it was kind of funny until it was time to get out of there and remembered it was one of the few times the wife and I went their in one of my roadsters. We were about 20 miles south before the barrage of bugs ended and a long day cleaning the car when we got home. It was also the last time she would go to Bakersfield in an open car.

[CIRF]

You guys out there in California have seen stuff on a regular basis us flat-lander's can only imagine! Especially the grass hopper invasion. Great stuff from both you guys! My paltry tails of Florida in February are an embarrassment.

I wanna' ask both of you guys if you've ever experienced, or heard of, serious fog at Ventura. In addition to having been there the one time back in 2012 I've watched a bunch of live internet broadcasts from there and never have seen even a trace of fog. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw but I would have thought if Naylor periodically had problems with fog we'd have at least heard about it but I never have.

[over4T]

When I moved west to Ventura in 1960 they ran an ugly show of junkers, mostly consisted of '49 to about '54 Fords, Chevies, etc., on a much flatter and ill prepared track for a couple of years till the place closed till the '70s brought in the Speedway motorcycles on Wednesday nights. They were part of a very successful group that ran several nights a week around southern California. Between those and the current Ventura I can only remember one evening of the Speedway bikes that had much fog.

For some reason that area seldom got very heavy fog yet the Oxnard/ Port Hueneme, only about 5 miles further south, got much heavier fog on occasion. I do, however,recall at least one time surfing off the point/pier area in front of the speedway when I couldn't see the shore while only, maybe, a quarter mile out. It was kind of surreal riding waves in that stuff. Santa Maria Speedway though, almost exactly 100 miles north, was regularly blitzed with fog.

P.S. Remember well the fog Mark alluded to at Lion's Drag Strip. Ran a F Stocker there in '65 that was undefeated. Loved the AHRA rules that made the 318 Dodge competitive there.

[CIRF]

For some reason that area seldom got very heavy fog yet the Oxnard/ Port Hueneme, only about 5 miles further south, got much heavier fog on occasion. I do, however, recall at least one time surfing off the point/pier area in front of the speedway when I couldn't see the shore while only, maybe, a quarter mile out. It was kind of surreal riding waves in that stuff. Santa Maria Speedway though, almost exactly 100 miles north, was regularly blitzed with fog.

P.S. Remember well the fog Mark alluded to at Lion's Drag Strip. Ran a F Stocker there in '65 that was undefeated. Loved the AHRA rules that made the 318 Dodge competitive there.

We've experienced a similar scenario in Florida during February as you describe with Oxnard having more frequent problems with fog as opposed to Ventura Fairgrounds. In Florida we've seen conditions where you can be driving along with visibility being crystal clear and drive into a wall of fog that will last maybe a couple of miles then drive out of it in a matter of 40' or 50'. And I'm talking fog so dense that you literally can't see beyond 10' or 15' in front of the car. Surreal is a good adjective for those conditions.

I don't remember ever attending an AHRA event. I'm sure I have back in my drag racing days but none come to mind. I'll say this. Any sanction that can produce a situation where a 318 is competitive has to be creative and with a well thought out format! I say that to in no way disparage either the sanction or the 318!

[Late_Model_Mark]

What was interesting about Ventura, it's location and proximity to the ocean and the hills had an effect on the lack of fog. Some places along the west coast ocean are like a vacuum, sucking in the moisture and fog, Ventura was not one of them unlike other locales in the state.

The Mrs. and I were hardcore addicted "sand duners" at Pismo Beach. (Actually the Oceano San Duse Off Road Park) The fog would sock in the place yet a few miles away it would be sunny and nice.

A couple of trips to Bakersfield for the March Meet the "tule" fog was intense, had huge pile ups on Hwy 99.



Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

[CIRF]

What was interesting about Ventura, it's location and proximity to the ocean and the hills had an effect on the lack of fog. Some places along the west coast ocean are like a vacuum, sucking in the moisture and fog, Ventura was not one of them unlike other locales in the state.

The Mrs. and I were hardcore addicted "sand duners" at Pismo Beach. (Actually the Oceano San Duse Off Road Park) The fog would sock in the place yet a few miles away it would be sunny and nice.

A couple of trips to Bakersfield for the March Meet the "tule" fog was intense, had huge pile ups on Hwy 99.



Late Model Mark
TST Announcer
Mark, expand on the "sand duners" just a bit. Being an Illinois clod hopper I'm unclear on the meaning of that particular California colloquialism.

Your mention of fog causing huge pileups jogged my memory of hearing/reading about horrendous and massive crashes in Cali. It doesn't seem to happen as much in later years, or they're just not getting the publicity they once did.

[Late_Model_Mark]

Out in California there are 3 locations with Sand Dune recreational riding.

My favorite was what we called Pismo Beach, but was actually located in Oceano. You could camp on the beach and go off roading 24 hrs in the sand dunes. I started on a ATC 90, then a ATC 110, had a Honda Odyessey, then a Honda ATC 185. The progression kept going with a ATC 200x, then a 3-wheeler that about killed me, a tricked out 250cc 2 stroke. We finally ended up with more sane and manageable Honda 400ex Quadrunners that we poured bank into and tricked them out. My wife was an amazing rider who could run with "any" of the boys and would work over most of 'em at the sanctioned sand drags or the evening mayhem on Competition Hill.

Another gem was the Glamis Sand Dune area in Southeast California near the town of Brawley. That place was seasonal as the big time of year was late fall and winter cuz it gets 110 plus in the summer. Thanksgiving weekend is unreal.

Another locale was not far from Las Vegas and near the small town of Baker, it is called Dumont Dunes. Place was fun but too hot in the summer.

Another place on the West Coast was the Oregon National Sand Dune preserve near Florence. It is next to the ocean and very pretty but has a lot of environmental restrictions but fun. Also had a High-Jumper Dune Buggy with a built 2180 VW engine with a nice Zenith carb up top.


CIRF, if you want to get a small grip on Glamis and it's huge crowds and wild and fast equipment, check out this on YouTube. "Glamis Thanksgiving 2014 Official Video HD"

Nightime riding in the Dunes is a incredible experience. Sold my nice Toy Hauler and all my toys when I moved to Alabama, miss it but I am too old these days to ride like I did.


LMM

[CIRF]

Mark, that Glamis vid is quite enlightening and entertaining. There are some bad ass vehicles driven by some bad ass people!!

I'm always struck by just how cool of a place Cali is. Take away the politics and the cost of living and you have a veritable sundry paradise of weather, places to go and things to do and see. Very sad it's been, for the most part, ruined.

While on business out in Laverne, California (very near the LA County Fairgrounds) I struck up a conversation with a lady who was in upper management of the firm I was visiting and she was/is around 12 years older than myself. She told me she was born and raised near LA and other than her time spent away at college had lived there her entire life. She would have been in high school during the early to mid 1970's. She said there was no better place to grow up in those days than SoCal but things went into the crapper starting in the '80's and have steadily gotten worse ever since. She said when she retires she was going to happily leave Cali to get away from the urban BS and out of control cost of living.

[over4T]

Mark, your comments about Glamis and the Thanksgiving weekend sure rang a bell with me. In all the years since I left southern Cal only once since have I ventured south of Ventura County again. That was for a Turkey weekend race at Imperial Valley Speedway about a dozen years ago.

Well knowing about the L.A. traffic that weekend I got off the freeway at Bakersfield and cut on down on the desert 2 lane highway. Got to San Berdoo and hit the freeway for the last twenty or so miles. Big mistake as 8 lanes of traffic creeping along and went like 3 miles in 1 1/2 hours. Sunday on the way back I went directly over to the desert roads and was in the biggest clog of dune buggies, motorcycles, quads and every kind of off road vehicle known to man for over a hundred miles. As the only circle track car in the traffic and an open trailer the old Late Model got more than its' share of looks. Looong ride home.

Know it was a long haul from your base but did you ever get a chance to hit Sand Mountain in northern Nevada? It's similar to Glamis, only a slightly smaller venue. It's just east of Fallon, NV, home of Rattlesnake Raceway and one of our favorite of the Nevada ovals.

This month is 60 years since I came to the Golden State and, though it has its' problems, the sheer diversity of people, climate and things to do make it still a great place to live and I'll never leave.

[Late_Model_Mark]

I never did go up to those dunes in Nevada. Did check out the red dunes in Utah once.

I will say that from the 60's thru about 95 So-Cal was some place to be. It went a different direction after that with the Hispanic invasion. I got mucho Hispanics in my "La Familia" who have high disdain for the invasion as So-Cal turned into another country and has turned into Northern Mexico. Where english was a secondary language. Where I lived at until moving to Alabama, a nice "hood" turned into a slowly decaying barrio. The traffic, attitudes, hassles of traffic, costs, taxes and general mayhem made us leave.

The time of my youth was epic and memorable as decency and morality was still alive.

The racing options were none better then in Southern California especially the Drag Racing that absolutely dominated the action. There was more diversity then, it was epic. The choices were limitless and diverse.


Let me tell you all about one time at Pismo on a Saturday night during a Memorial Day weekend. On Friday and Saturday nights, competition hill was an amazing sight and scene as there were hundreds of folks and toys racing up the hill. From water pumpers to Jeeps and trucks, as well as 3-wheelers and such.

As I stated earlier my wife could run rings around most of the boys. Folks were drinkin'and racing up the hill, there was some gambling on the outcome. There were some Central California boys racin' up the hill and talkin' poop. They were right next to us and saying out loud they could whip anybody on a 3-wheeler up the hill.

On purpose,I said I'll race, they said how much, I said $20.00, this was a set up folks. There was about 5 of 'em from Hanford. I was on my tricked out 2-stroke Honda 250R. We raced and I sand bagged hopefully to "bait" them in for another race, it worked.

I said I can't ride worth a sh%%. They laughed and said the same. I played drunk and asked for another race, they agreed and I said my wife would ride cuz I am wasted, I wasn't, they were. They laughed and carried on, I played even more drunk and said u want to race my wife or not. They said I needed to open my wallet if I was going to waste my money.

I said how bout 1 race up Comp Hill for $100 with my wife on the bike and she will beat all of you. They agreed. These dopes did not really know the art of sand racing. They would leave in 1st gear, do huge wheelies, have to pedal or shift early. Remember the sandbagging?

The trick when racing in the sand and up Comp Hill was the gear you left in. They left in 1st, the Mrs left in 2nd gear. Did not have to shift so quick, was less prone to wheelies and could stay on the pipe easier.

The race came and I flagged it, the Mrs "left" on these jokers so bad and waxed 'em by about 15 bikes, it was hilarious to watch. After the race they cried and pissed and moan and di not want to pay. There were a few buddies of mine that were the size of wrestlers and convinced then that to honor their bet would be wise. They left shortly there after, $100 heavier in the billfold, we ate like kings the next day,lol. Once again my wife was some rider.


Late Model Mark

[CIRF]

GREAT stories, gentlemen!!

I have nothing to compare. You guys have had some fun!

[over4T]

Mark, I certainly agree with you about what's happened to much of the L.A. area and know your old area pretty well. It's sad to see about half the city turn into more like East L.A. and if I'd lived down there I'd probably be in 'Bama or it's like too.

Since you're a drag racing fan and lived practically down the street from it I wonder your thoughts on the old San Fernando Dragstrip. Mine are old school primitive, flagman, few amenities and a big drain tunnel under the freeway to give the few really fast cars a chance to slow down if their brakes failed. As slow as most of the cars I ever ran there were I didn't even need brakes.

The smog creeping up the coast and the Oxnard/Ventura area quadrupling or quintupling was the final straw for me when we headed north. Growing up in the Rust Belt of the Great Lakes was a good place to be raised and then it was time to leave if you didn't want to be out of work half the time or just enjoyed crappy weather 2/3rds of the year. I only knew one buddy who was half Mexican (other half Greek) and another who was Puerto Rican and Italian. Got to mention the latter's name as it was one of those what-were-his-parents-thinking names, Phillip Ennis. Never even heard of a taco or burrito in Ohio and got to love those soon after the move west but still miss the food diversity of the Cleveland area with all the eastern Europeans; Germans, Polish, Hungarians, Czechs and of course the Italian food was to die for.

I'd also agree the '60s thru mid '90s were probably the best years for CA but at my age maybe I'm not as hard to please. Still looking down at the grass instead of up, got many race tracks, a good car culture (plus they don't all turn to rust in a couple of years), any kind of climate you desire, great musical culture in my area and with over 30,000,000 people you're bound to make some friends. Glad though that my county only has about 80 or 90,000 of them. There's a good place for everyone and I'm glad I found mine.

[CIRF]

Glad though that my county only has about 80 or 90,000 of them.
That's a lotta' people, over4T. The county I live in here in Illinois has less than 35'000 population. Less than 40 total covoid-19 cases. It's the 4th largest county in Illinois geographically but 39th out of 102 in reference to population. Our population per square mile is actually quite low. I'm with you 100% regarding too many people being a problem for us but 90,000 would be way too many for me.

When my working days are over, which is quite a ways down the line at this point, we're headed for a southern state but not Florida. We've spent a lot of time in The Sunshine State over the years and we do not want to live there. We don't want to put up with too much snow and freezing weather but like the changing of the seasons and we've got our eye on a couple of places that we think would suit us.

The way things are going I'm not sure there's going to be anything left or a safe place to go when I call it quits. I don't want to get a political/cultural conversation going but we believe our concerns about the future are warranted.

[over4T]

CIRF, It sounds like a lot of people but this county extends nearly 75 mile east almost to the Nevada state line and over 1/2 of our population is up there. That area is where all but 12 of the county cases of the virus and the only death from it have occurred. My immediate area has about 1,200 folks and that's about as crowded as I care for.

As a transplanted Midwesterner I liked seasonal changes and the joke in southern CA was in summer the hills were brown and in the winter green. Light snow dusting up here a couple of times per winter is as close to shoveling the stuff as I want to get again.

[CIRF]

I see what you're saying, over4T.

Illinois has a population of approximately 12,600,000. Approximately 70%, of the population lives in the chitcago metro area and Metro East St. Louis. 70% of the population is crammed into just 7.5% of the land mass of Illinois. Without crunching the numbers I'd be willing to bet the ratio for Cali is even more profound.

I've heard rumblings over the years that the rural areas of Cali would love not to be burdened by the urban hellhole's. There is a movement afoot here in Illinois to make chitcago the 51st state. Our legislative, taxation and cultural problems are probably similar.

We stay in Illinois for one reason. That reason is my livelihood depends on it and I can't make a living doing what I do in many other places. We've done well enough to be comfortable and we're able to travel to just about all the races we have time for and are interested in. That's important to us. Those trips include a half dozen trips to the left coast specifically to see racing out there and we consider ourselves quite blessed to be able to do those things. We also were lucky enough to have attended the Western World Championships at Manzy before they tore that place down. That's a subject for another time and thread!

In spite of the fact that our winters have become markedly more mild over the years our goal is still to move to warmer climes when my working days are over. As I said earlier, we hope there is something left to move to. As I've said many times California is a spectacularly beautiful place outside of the urban hellhole's and there was a day when we would have considered relocating out there but those days are over.

[Late_Model_Mark]

San Fernando was a very regular haunt for me on Sundays. We would go to Lions on Saturday then "the pond" on Sundays. Muffled cars from 9:00am till noon, the from noon till 3:00pm the hot cars ran. Amazing what kind of show could be run in 3 hours. Brownies concessions sure was good to.

The area I lived in was in the San Fernando Valley, first in Van Nuys and then Granada Hills. We would weigh the options of going places (other than racing) depending on the hours of traffic it would take getting there.

There are just a few things I miss about Cali.
The food I liked.
A. The Bear Pit BBQ in Granada Hills
B. Casa Da Pizza-Granada Hills
C. In N Out Burger
D. Tommies Chili Burgers.
E. Jockos Steak House-Nipomo

Racetracks
A. Pomona Raceway and the Winternationals (went every year, all days from 1965 until 2013)
B. Bakersfield Speedway
C. Santa Maria Speedway

4T ever go to the short lived Whiteman Stadium?



LMM

[over4T]

SoCal food; remember and liked the Bear Pit BBQ and Jocko's up in Nipomo and a couple of other very good ones were nearly any BBQ joint in the Santa Maria area and the Heidelberg on Van Nuys Blvd. for some of the best German food and pastry in the country. Close second to the Heidelberg was Alpine Village just across the freeway from Ascot with a good restaurant, a killer German bakery, even had a theater that showed movies from der fatherland with English sub-titles. Can't forget the great beer garden with the oompa bands during Octoberfest either. 'Bout 3 steins of the pilsener and I even got the ex up to polka one time.

Went to the Winternationals several years and never once paid to get in. Five or six of us always went and one was a cop in Santa Paula, population then about 6,000 and now 5 times that. The cop always just showed his badge at the gate and they let our whole carload in year after year. S.P. was, and is still, a citrus growing/packaging economy and the local cop cars were orange and white and everyone called them the Citrus Patrol, which they hated. ARP also has a plant there making their fasteners.

Whiteman Stadium, yes several times. Probably the only oval in the U.S. where you didn't need brakes going into turn 1 up that big hill but made up for it coming down the ski run of 2 down to 3. Interesting story of how the Stadium came to be is that Marv and Gary Whiteman were racing 1955ish Studebakers at Saugus with Chevy small blocks and the rules said Ford to Ford, Chevy to Chevy, etc. They tried to convince the officials that Canadian built Studies came from the factory with Chevies but had no luck. Whiteman family had the land, airport and, I believe, a couple other businesses there so built the track. Saugus tried also tried to get Carl Stoorgard, a car owner/builder around the same time with his Ramblers but they actually had 390/410 Rambler engines and had a lot of wins, primarily with Jimmy Insolo behind the wheel.

I'd forgotten about the mufflered cars running in the morning at San Fernando until you mentioned it. First time there, just to watch, was after a night at Saugus sitting under the then existing roof on the front stretch all evening listening to the non muffled LMS. As I'm sure you remember you were usually practically deaf until Monday or Tuesday from the noise. Anyhow, we got to the drag strip and thought it was the quietist drags we'd ever attended.

[over4T]

CIRF, Re. Population woes. I think our population 's main numbers would be pretty much like Illinois, only spread between two majors compared to your one. SoCal, which has pretty much become a megalopolis over the last 3 or 4 decades extending from the lower 1/2 of Ventura County down through L.A., Orange and all the way to the Mexican border below San Diego.

The other major is the Bay Area; San Francisco to San Jose to their neighboring areas with the denser populations.
As you may guess, the vast majority of the techno, manufacturing, Amazons and their like are in these areas and have a vast political influence on where the federal and state funds go. The other areas, such as mine, grew from gold mining , forestry, etc. and are decidedly more blue collar businesses. The far northern counties are even more rural and have a lot of cattle ranches and their ilk. These are not the types of business you can shelter in place and work from your computer. Many of them are poorly represented in the state offices and get regulated by people who wouldn't know a saddle from a tractor from a chainsaw.

The north doesn't like a large portion of our water going to the desert area of the south.. The south thinks they're entitled to it. Both ends of the state think, probably correctly, that they are getting screwed on something..

With that said, yes, there has been a movement to secede NorCal from SoCal for many years and call the north the state of Jefferson. Much of the population of those areas are fiercely independent small family run operations of several generations and are much troubled by having their way of life altered. Will Jefferson ever actually happen? I doubt it as the lack of large corporations and national companies means the big revenue to fund another government just isn't there and never will be. The average Joe Blow in any state can't even comprehend the numbers their state throws out as a budget; $150,000,000 for this, $360,000,000 for that. Coming up with funds to start another state aren't, and probably never will be, there and I highly doubt we will ever see a new one anywhere in this country.

[Late_Model_Mark]

Wow the Heidleberg, went there a few times. Had an account at the Alpine, sold em Venison saddles and wild boar, u ain't kidding about the Alpine fest, those steins would get to you.

U mentioned the Whiteman Bros. Those topless Studebakers were as u said main in Canada. What got the in trouble is the Canadian Studes had 406cu.in. Big Blocks, slightly stroked 396 engines.

Were u there the night a neighbor came to the track with a shotgun crying over the noise?

In the 60's and early 70's Bobs Big Boy on Van Nuys Blvd, the drive in section looked liked the Super Stock pits at Lions, some super bad a$$ rides.

4t, do you remember Hoy Toy's Chinese on VN Blvd?

There was also a place next to the grocery store I worked, called the Hofbrau, great food.


LMM

[over4T]

Underknown item about the 396 Chevy is that they were actually 402 c.i. I don't know why they called them 396es; maybe because the manufacturers were beginning their underreporting the engines power about then. Calling the big Hemis, 427 Fords, etc. 425 horses when, in reality, they were all around 600 or maybe they already had the 396 badges made up.

Remember hearing about the shotgun incident but wasn't there when it happened.

You're right about the Bob's "car shows" and we were there a couple of times. I'm sure you remember the stories about the Burger Boy statues being swiped from a few Bob's locations. In Ventura our equivalent was the Original Mel's Drive In (weren't they all the original?) at Five Points and a Foster Freeze on Main across from the high school.

Best story from the F.F. was one Saturday night a local guy with an alcohol rail dropped in on his way home from a night at Orange County's drag strip and after a few beverages, not Foster's very good malts, was convinced to unload in the alley and push it off and make a run down Main Street. Ended up costing him his license for 1 year, a stiff fine and impound fees to get his rig back.

Never knew of Hoy Toy's but we had some good Chinese food in Ventura as well as up north, where there was a large Asian population during the Gold Rush times but not now. Think we tried the Hof Brau once and was quite good if I remember.

[Late_Model_Mark]

I have strayed off course of this original post, cancellations.
I think I and probably anybody else that has gone to the races since the early 60's has seen it all.


Races canned by, rain, snow, wind, fires, civil unrest, and sand storms. State, county, city, and towns have s-canned the races. Lightning, thunderstorms, bugs and many other items. One year at was then called Firebird Raceway in Chandler AZ, the starting line came a part and they called Sunday eliminations. Got to the gate the place was empty and we got the news.


LMM

[CIRF]

Underknown item about the 396 Chevy is that they were actually 402 c.i. I don't know why they called them 396es; maybe because the manufacturers were beginning their underreporting the engines power about then. Calling the big Hemis, 427 Fords, etc. 425 horses when, in reality, they were all around 600 or maybe they already had the 396 badges made up.

Remember hearing about the shotgun incident but wasn't there when it happened.

You're right about the Bob's "car shows" and we were there a couple of times. I'm sure you remember the stories about the Burger Boy statues being swiped from a few Bob's locations. In Ventura our equivalent was the Original Mel's Drive In (weren't they all the original?) at Five Points and a Foster Freeze on Main across from the high school.

Best story from the F.F. was one Saturday night a local guy with an alcohol rail dropped in on his way home from a night at Orange County's drag strip and after a few beverages, not Foster's very good malts, was convinced to unload in the alley and push it off and make a run down Main Street. Ended up costing him his license for 1 year, a stiff fine and impound fees to get his rig back.

Never knew of Hoy Toy's but we had some good Chinese food in Ventura as well as up north, where there was a large Asian population during the Gold Rush times but not now. Think we tried the Hof Brau once and was quite good if I remember.

Over, the Chevrolet 402 was badged as a 396 during very late 1969 production thru 1972. The increase in cylinder displacement was due to Chevrolet boring the 396 big block engine block .030" over what the earlier engines had been bored. This is where the 6 additional C.I. came from. I've never been able to officially ascertain why Chevrolet made the late '69 thru '72 engines a bit larger. Conventional wisdom from some very learned people I've talked to is that the federal emission regulations differed for engines of 400 C.I.'s and larger as opposed to engines of less than 400 C.I.'s. The 402 was offered from late '69 through '72. All 396's produced prior to late '69 were, in fact 396 C.I. I'm working on memory now so I could be mistaken but I believe the 402 was a lower horsepower, hydraulic lifter, 2 bolt main engine that could also be ordered in the pickup trucks of those years.

Despite all this taking place a bit before my time I became quite interested in that era of American muscle car production during my young adult period. It was very interesting to the point of puzzling how the manufacturers played games with horsepower and torque ratings and as we see with Chevrolet, even the displacement numbers were toyed with.

Another fact that I would have bet against being true is the cast iron cylinder head used on the 396/402/427/454 big block Chevy engines weighs in at a few lbs. heavier than a cylinder head of a Gen II 426 Street hemi of that era. As I said, I would have bet a C-note against that being the case!

Sorry to get off topic, guys. This stuff intrigues me. My wife says it's "news I can't use"! LOL!