Starter/direct drive

[Rajflyboy]

I really love sprint cars but really hate the fact they need push vehicles to start. I guess they will never have a starter of some sort. Any thoughts?

[JimBo]

Yeah I feel that same way. I understand why sprint cars do not have starters but it is a burden on a track that does not run sprints every week.

[Rajflyboy]

It’s another case where there is always that 1 car that has trouble. 95% of them crank right away and that 1 or 2 cars mess it up for the rest.

[CIRF]

Putting starters on sprint cars and midgets involves much more than throwing a battery and starter on board.

I avoid tracks that only occasionally schedule dirt open wheel events. They don’t have the expertise and organization to run a tight and time economical show and it diminishes the rep of the track and of the push start divisions. Fairbury, IL is good example of a facility that runs the best late model and modified events in the country but are woefully inadequate at running a dirt open wheel show.

Every track that schedules a dirt open wheel event should observe and learn at The Chili Bowl as to how to best run it. Emmett & Co. run at least 80 to 90 cars each night 4 nights in a row and on Saturday they run literally dozens of alphabet soup races. They know how to do it.

Bottom line.......it’s the organization skills, not the cars that turn people off. Don’t blame the cars, blame the people who run the tracks!

[Rajflyboy]

I agree and chili bowl is normally good but this year they did not have a good year but that’s not the norm. Need plenty of push vehicles and back up vehicles to get everyone started quick.

[Late_Model_Mark]

We have zero issues at Talladega when we bring in the USCS twice a year. Plenty of push vehicles to fire them up.



Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

[Rajflyboy]

We have zero issues at Talladega when we bring in the USCS twice a year. Plenty of push vehicles to fire them up. Late Model MarkTST AnnouncerI guess I’m just spoiled from watching Late Models. I love sprint cars but Sammy and a Steve just are very hard to replace.

[CIRF]

I attended all 5 nights of the Chili Bowl last January. I have no idea what your talking about it not being good this year. Were you there?

What is it about late models that spoils you? I’ve been attending late model events since I was 8 years old and have yet to see anything that would spoil me or anyone else any more than a well run wingless 410 sprint or midget show.

[Rajflyboy]

I watched the chili bowl on tv (live). It took forever to get the feature going. Track prep. So much so that I said screw it and went to bed. I used to prefer the sprints but now I prefer the late models. Multiple reasons but no starters is definitely one of them.

[CIRF]

I watched the chili bowl on tv (live). It took forever to get the feature going. Track prep. So much so that I said screw it and went to bed. I used to prefer the sprints but now I prefer the late models. Multiple reasons but no starters is definitely one of them.Enlighten me as to exactly how push start race cars were responsible for the huge delays in the running of the Saturday night Chili Bowl A-main?

You need to get your afternoon nap in anticipation of a late night! LOL!

I was there all 5 nights and believe me, The Chili Bowl is overall still one of the 2 or 3 best run dirt shows of any kind, year in, year out. I haven't attended the Knoxville Nationals but outside of that great event I feel as if I may have the credibility to definitively compare The Chili Bowl to the biggest dirt late model events due to the fact that I've attended over 20 World Hundreds, a half dozen late model Dream's, several DTWC's at Pennsboro, all but 2 Prairie Dirt Classic's, a couple dozen Herald & Review 100's and literally hundreds of weekly late model events over the years.

I began attending The Chili Bowl back before a live network TV broadcast was even dreamt of. Why they are delaying the Saturday night A-main and farting around so much falls squarely on the shoulders of live network TV. Prior to the live Saturday night network broadcasts the final 5 races (2 C-main's, 2 B-mains and the A-main) were run seamlessly with track prep being nothing more than a minor delay. There is a growing amount of discontent of late among those in the stands about the delay's. It's more than apparent what is going on and it isn't the fault of how The Chili Bowl finale' night racing is organized.
It's a shame that you aren't able to attend push start events that are well run and organized because cars with starters, clutches, batteries, fenders, aero package, jacked up left rear, right front hanging a foot beyond the right rear, etc. have nothing on a well run and organized push start event. FACT.

Personally, I really don't prefer one over the other in regards to dirt open wheel racing as compared to dirt late models. The excitement of the racing on any given night is not exceeded by one over the other, either way. I do, however, appreciate the fact that dirt open wheel racing requires somewhat more talent, skill and testicular dimensions for a driver to be considered among the best. There is a danger/survival element that diminishes some of the "moving a car out of the way in order to pass" mentality. I've never been a big fan of hitting a car as a method to pass it.

I've been told by someone who has won big races in both types cars and is in multiple hall's of fame that the baddest, nastiest car's on dirt are wingless 410 sprint cars and they require bit more talent, skill, determination and testicular dimensions, and the toughest cars to set up to win are dirt late models. I take the man's word explicitly!

[Rajflyboy]

I do try to see sprints when they are in Western, NC when they show up.

[CIRF]

I do try to see sprints when they are in Western, NC when they show up.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, please. Without knowing for sure I'm going to speculate that the dirt open wheel cars (that includes midgets, winged sprint cars and wingless sprint cars) race in the Carolina's sparingly. I'm going to again speculate that the time management organization is not up to Chili Bowl or Indiana Sprint/Midget Week standards. Don't make the mistake of dismissing the starterless cars because the people who are in control of time management of the event aren't real good at it..

In my case when I go to Fairbury, IL to a midget or a sprint car show I understand the track management does not make those events a top priority like they do the PDC or a couple of other dirt late model shows, and justifiably so. Tracks that do not have dirt open wheel cars as their top fan draw and primary top divisions probably won't have Chili Bowl type organization and time management skills in practice. I understand how that works so I'm not surprised or disappointed when the show runs longer than it should. But man! We certainly hear the rumbling in the grandstands from the hard core dirt late model fans complaining about how the push start cars are such a pain in the ass. I know! I've heard it.

Getting back to The Chili Bowl I hope you better understand why things are as sluggish during the TV portion on Saturday night in light of the circumstances in play. The other 5 nights are the finest run events of any type racing, starters or no starters, you'll see all year! The Chili Bowl is a partial victim of it's own success. Anytime television gets a foothold the event itself seems to suffer. We see it at college football games holding up play 'till TV comes out of commercials and basketball games are held up for the same reasons. It's a bi-product of video culture.

[Rajflyboy]

It’s definitely hard to have a live tv event on dirt. Lucas does a pretty good job with it 👍. I think the WOO does a good job with push cars. They are well prepared. USAC events I have been to not as much.

[CIRF]

How long has it been since you attended a USAC National event featuring any of the 3 touring divisions? I attend a minimum of a half dozen USAC National Midget & Sprint Car shows a year and usually 3 100 mile/100 lap USAC Silver Crown events. What you say is beyond refute when speaking of 5 to 7 years ago. Since Levi Jones and Kirk Spridgeon and their staff have taken over the reigns the USAC portions of the events I attend are very, very economically and efficiently run in comparison to prior to those two guys taking charge. I can't always say that for the lower divisions that support the USAC events but that's another conversation.

We attended the 2 WoO's Sprint Car events at Fairbury, Illinois in 2018 & 2019 and those were not organized as well as one might think the premier dirt racing division should be run. Again, I put most of the blame on the track since we've attended WoO's events at other tracks that were superbly run. The crowd at Fairbury was predominantly dirt late model regulars who weren't all that enthused about the "tumble bunnies" but are avid supporters of their track and most of them were not all that impressed with the organization. It came as no surprise that when the 2020 WoO's Sprint Car schedule was released back in December Fairbury wasn't part of it.

[Rajflyboy]

No very often but they ran at Concord maybe 15 years ago and it was absolute horrendous. Again they don’t come around here much. USCS seems to do a good job from what I have seen.

[CIRF]

15 years ago?!! Seriously! LOL!

I have to agree with you on the bad USAC show 15 years ago. But don't ya' think it's a bit of a stretch to base a critique/opinion on something that happened 15 years ago?

Raj, if you don't believe one other thing I've said or will say here believe this! The USAC that you experienced 15 years ago no longer exist's. Andy Hillenburg started the trend to very good and timely USAC events and when Levi & Spridge took over for Andy the Club and his successors have gone on to take USAC to levels of quality that no one under retirement age has ever seen.

First and foremost Andy, then Levi and Spridge have made USAC a great place to race for the competitors. This is why 40+ cars show up at Springfield, IL and Du Quoin, IL for their respective Silver Crown events. The environment that those gentlemen have created has transformed a stodgy outfit run by a bunch of rigid old men in yellow shirts to one of adapting to the needs and wants of competitors and spectators alike.

Now, those guys still don't control how organized the individual tracks are but they seem to be very discriminant of where they race and the overall quality their scheduled tracks are capable of. I would love nothing more than for USAC Sprint Car's/Midget's to race at FALS but I believe it would be somewhat detrimental to the USAC brand if they raced there before FALS is able to get their open wheel act together.

[Rajflyboy]

We see a lot of different types of racing. That event at Concord was probably the worst run race I have seen. Not sure who was at fault or if we just hit it on a bad night. Memorable though none the less.

[CIRF]

We see a lot of different types of racing. That event at Concord was probably the worst run race I have seen. Not sure who was at fault or if we just hit it on a bad night. Memorable though none the less.

I would say that the USAC of that era was incompetent to the degree that what you witnessed was probably the norm for those days. I lived through that era and USAC was regularly awful in those days. But again, please don't base your opinion of USAC based on those days. The guys running USAC now are a world away from the clowns of those days.

[Late_Model_Mark]

Part of the allure of open wheel racing to me is the push start. Just like in my other world of nitro, there was nothing better than a front engine nitro dragster push start back in my younger days. Second was the push starts at my favorite dirt track, Ascot Park. Been around the block on this, there is some delay in push starting the open wheelers, especially after a red flag. There is no denial on my end on that minor delay. It is however all good.



Late Model Mark
TST Announcer

[over4T]

As one of the guys in the full bodied stuff that usually plays second fiddle to the open wheel cars I've sat through enough endless sprint car mains at tracks that don't have a clue about both original starts and restarts when it comes to pushing them off.

While we sit and swelter in line for, sometimes, nearly an hour the incompetent tracks run around in circles like the old silent movie Keystone Cops trying to clear the often upside down cars and, then, get them all pushed off and in proper order again. We swear to ourselves we will never get in that situation again..till next week. That said the tracks that get it like, as Mark said, the late lamented Ascot as well as Placerville Speedway the delays are very minor and quickly returned to racing.

P'Ville has had a crew of Jeeps that have pushed off the Sprinters for decades and a lot of tracks around the country should send their bozos there to get some lessons in how it should be done. They get things going nearly as fast as the startered cars and it's a pleasure to watch them.

The worst shows with Sprints to be the backup class to, hands down, is the World of Outlaws. Their officials watch the track and when it suits what they're looking for will kick the other class off and run the WoO stuff. Then we get the leftovers on a used up track and, many times, a shortened main due to time constraints. We have refused for several years to be any part of a WoO show.

I guess the point is if the track has a clue it's all good. If not the track surely won't gain new fans with a dragged out program.

[CIRF]

Part of the allure of open wheel racing to me is the push start. Just like in my other world of nitro, there was nothing better than a front engine nitro dragster push start back in my younger days. Second was the push starts at my favorite dirt track, Ascot Park. Been around the block on this, there is some delay in push starting the open wheelers, especially after a red flag. There is no denial on my end on that minor delay. It is however all good.



Late Model Mark
TST AnnouncerAn honest answer from a guy that knows what he'd talking about! Hat's off to ya', Mark. The best push truck organization I've seen is hand down, The Chili Bowl, but I'm sure they had to learn it from someone/someplace and Ascot may have been that place!

As one of the guys in the full bodied stuff that usually plays second fiddle to the open wheel cars I've sat through enough endless sprint car mains at tracks that don't have a clue about both original starts and restarts when it comes to pushing them off.

While we sit and swelter in line for, sometimes, nearly an hour the incompetent tracks run around in circles like the old silent movie Keystone Cops trying to clear the often upside down cars and, then, get them all pushed off and in proper order again. We swear to ourselves we will never get in that situation again..till next week. That said the tracks that get it like, as Mark said, the late lamented Ascot as well as Placerville Speedway the delays are very minor and quickly returned to racing.

P'Ville has had a crew of Jeeps that have pushed off the Sprinters for decades and a lot of tracks around the country should send their bozos there to get some lessons in how it should be done. They get things going nearly as fast as the startered cars and it's a pleasure to watch them.

The worst shows with Sprints to be the backup class to, hands down, is the World of Outlaws. Their officials watch the track and when it suits what they're looking for will kick the other class off and run the WoO stuff. Then we get the leftovers on a used up track and, many times, a shortened main due to time constraints. We have refused for several years to be any part of a WoO show.

I guess the point is if the track has a clue it's all good. If not the track surely won't gain new fans with a dragged out program.

Read this post, Raj. Over knows what he's talking about 'cause he's not only talked the talk, he's walked the walk.

Over, you explained it much better than I even after I'd posted half of the novel War and Peace! LOL!

What you say about Placerville being a place to learn the art of running a dirt open wheel show is exactly what I say about Emmett's crew at The Chili Bowl! Every track that wants to venture into the world of dirt open wheel racing should watch and learn at one of those two places!

They don't throw the red every time a car gets upside down at The Chili Bowl which is a huge time saver, as well. I'm sure all of the dirt open wheel sanctions have their reasons for putting out the red for every little tommy tip-over but it can, and does, sometimes get frustrating.

The first couple of times POWRi National Midgets raced at Fairbury, IL I talked to some of the hard core dirt late model fans who were quite impressed with the racing itself but the cluster that was the push truck brigade was a turn-off for them and I totally agreed with them. As I said earlier, Fairbury runs some of the best late model shows in the country but they just don't do enough of the open wheel stuff to get good at it. You hit it on the button, Over, the ill will that results from a less than adequate push truck and wrecker effort will run more fans off than the best racing in the world will draw.

[Rajflyboy]

I do love sprint cars (winged sprint cars). From a fan in the stands standpoint I also wish they had starters.

[CIRF]

I do love sprint cars (winged sprint cars). From a fan in the stands standpoint I also wish they had starters.

Let me take the liberty of suggesting that your wishes may be misplaced. Wish for better time and equipment organization by the facilities scheduling the cars without starters. Sprint cars and midgets are not really sprint cars and midgets when you hang clutch and starter systems on them. They become some sort of hybrid open wheel modified thing that is a type of half breed of sorts.

I would also strongly suggest that you attend a top level full house wingless 410 sprint car show. The wing cars are fun to watch but the wingless cars are funner and generally more exciting!

[over4T]

The starters on the open wheel cars may seem like a good idea but most of the experiments with them out west have been a failure.

Some of the problems include that they don't use a clutch, but direct drive; ie. in/out box, and the higher powered stuff like 410 or even most of the better 360 cars have too much compression to expect to bump start them in gear and get the wheels turning. Even most of the lower H.P. cars have problems due to heat, etc. They may get them to start and pull on the track for the initial start but every time they stop most, not all, require a push.

Another thing is weight and room to put a starter in. Sprints and midgets are more weight conscious than a Bantamweight boxer at weigh-in for a championship bout. Ounces are crucial, or are thought to be, on these cars, hence drilled bolts, titanium parts and light weight drivers for the most part. Adding a starter's weight and some sort of flywheel make these guys cringe. Add in that everything is very close fitting in them and finding room for the parts required is a problem.

The cars are very capable of putting on terrific shows but, in my opinion, most of the lag time when they run is the tracks' incapability of knowing how to handle their unique problems. That or a full moon night when guys drive like idiots, which holds true for all classes.

[Rajflyboy]

Over4T. Thanks for the explanation on the mechanical side of this 👍

[CIRF]

Over, I've spent some time reading up on how weight conscious Sammy Swindell is regarding his Chili Bowl midgets. I'm sure most of the big time teams that are very serious about winning the CB are doing all Sammy talked about, and more. I've also heard a relatively recent interview of Carl Kinser where he lightly delved into the weight reducing measures he was implementing on his WoO Sprint Cars back in his and Steve's heyday. Guys like Sammy and Carl are astonishingly thorough and remarkably creative. IIRC Carl talked about even hollowing bolt fasteners out where they could compromise strength to some degree.

[over4T]

CIRF, Yeah there was all kinds of craziness to get weight to a minimum such as shortening your hollowed out bolts so they would have a maximum of one thread showing past the nut, magnesium lock washers, titanium everywhere and on and on. Some very innovative stuff that borders on obsessive/compulsive behavior.
My thought was always that instead of all the work and money to lose a few ounces to just get a skinnier driver and don't stop on the way to the track for his triple cheeseburger, extra large order of fries and a double malted. Saves money as well as time.
Personally, I've refrained from eating much, if any, before racing for most of my years in this sport and found long ago that I drive better when I'm not stuffed...and at my age I need every edge I can get. Or maybe I just go faster so we can get out of there and hit up some late night dive for some grub and bench racing.

[Rajflyboy]

Let me take the liberty of suggesting that your wishes may be misplaced. Wish for better time and equipment organization by the facilities scheduling the cars without starters. Sprint cars and midgets are not really sprint cars and midgets when you hang clutch and starter systems on them. They become some sort of hybrid open wheel modified thing that is a type of half breed of sorts.I would also strongly suggest that you attend a top level full house wingless 410 sprint car show. The wing cars are fun to watch but the wingless cars are funner and generally more exciting!Good advice. I will try to do that some day. 👍

[Rajflyboy]

CIRF, Yeah there was all kinds of craziness to get weight to a minimum such as shortening your hollowed out bolts so they would have a maximum of one thread showing past the nut, magnesium lock washers, titanium everywhere and on and on. Some very innovative stuff that borders on obsessive/compulsive behavior. My thought was always that instead of all the work and money to lose a few ounces to just get a skinnier driver and don't stop on the way to the track for his triple cheeseburger, extra large order of fries and a double malted. Saves money as well as time. Personally, I've refrained from eating much, if any, before racing for most of my years in this sport and found long ago that I drive better when I'm not stuffed...and at my age I need every edge I can get. Or maybe I just go faster so we can get out of there and hit up some late night dive for some grub and bench racing.Steve Kinser wasn’t a skinny minny? He did ok? 😜

[over4T]

Quite true Raj. But there's only one Steve KInser and a lot of the slightly built guys like Larson in the more modern era.

[Rajflyboy]

I just can’t get used to the modern era

[over4T]

Nor can I Raj and that goes for most all classes.

The Sprints, of various versions, seem to be one of the worst with a lot of wealthy daddies thinking Junior is going to be the next (pick one) Larson, Swindell, Kinser, Hewitt, etc. Kids that don't even shave yet walking around in $2,000 custom fit firesuits, all buttoned up even in 100 degree heat without a smudge of dirt or grease on them as they never touch the cars. For most a few years in and not the offers from WoO, NASCAR or the Penske's of the sport they expected and daddy's 401K is broke and Junior moves on to something he's more suited for, like I Racing.

The full bodied classes, at least on the Saturday night level may not be quite as bad as it tends to be more a family thing and, generally, the driver works his way through the lower divisions before hitting the DLMs or A Mods. They also tend to be more of a hands on thing as far as the younger drivers work on their cars.

The simple rule I've worked with my son since he started right off with an A Mod 2 1/2 decades ago as a 16 year old was that you work on the cars or you don't race. The couple of times that he failed that rule I'd drive, he got to be the track grunt, and the point was learned very swiftly. The rule, however, is still in effect.

The big league stuff where some of the beginners start in ARCA is best explained by Ken Schrader after a recent win in that series. " I beat one other AARP member and a bunch of high school kids."

[Rajflyboy]

So true over4t. I bet you are a very good dad👍. The average racer out here is busting tail at a job during the day and then building race cars and spending a lot of time and money going to race on the weekends. True good hard working folks ( then you got these rich kids rollin in full time racing with daddy’s cash). Ticks me off too.