Chevelle Clip, Spindles?

[Kromulous]

Whats the preferred spindles out there now on the Chevelle clip? AFCO clip.

I see AFCO offers a Pinto based spindle with a 7 degree pin, and a 10 degree pin, what impact does this have on the geometry?

Thanks, Krom

[95shaw]

The different kpi changes the scrub radius.
Which changes weight jacking.

Myself, I would prefer near zero scrub radius on the rf and tune lf scrub radius along with caster and camber to help turn in.

[outlaw4j]

Most guys are on the 7 degree to reduce jacking. If you dont have to steer much it doesnt much matter. The three piece spindles are nice as you can replace arms as needed. the original factory pinto spindles are still the strongest i think.

Three piece are also nice as you don't have to do any reaming for ball joints. And no brake bracket stuff to fiddle with.

[JustAddDirt]

7-8º pinto spindles are weak were they cut into the top ball joint elbow.
ARGO AMC spindles are nice and they are 7º but $$$$
Original Chevelle spindles are 8º
Brian Ruhlman makes billet steering arms, brake brackets and a bearing kit to use the Hybrid rotors.
you can order new spindles from Summit Racing. they are forged units.
The Allstar 3 piece spindles are basically a copy of the chevelle's and are 8º

all depends on budget.
the good thing about the original chevelle, ARGO/AMC, and Allstar 3 piece is the steering and brake brackets bolt on, so you only have to carry 1 spindle as a spare. I used to carry a spindle with the rotor already assembled, so i just had to bolt on the brake and steering arm real quick to complete a repair.

[95shaw]

Actually, 7 degree spindles increase weight jacking because the pivot axis is farther from the center of the contact patch.

Kpi by itself actually creates positive camber into the tire in both turn in and countersteer. Which helps by making wheel self centering.
Rolling caster into rolls the camber change curve to where there is more weight jacking at countersteer, with less at turn in.

[Kromulous]

If your going to say a 7* spindle on the RF, using a less offset wheel would be more beneficial, to keep the KPI down, and less scrub radi?

Currently i run a 2" offset, and set of Speedway 3 piece spindle deal. Just looking to get a better steering feel, a little sharper cut feeling.

Anyone ever manipulate the steering arm length to get some ackerman effect on the LF?

Thanks for all insight on the spindles, i hear a lot of debate on the front ends but there seems to be a slew of options out there LOL.

[outlaw4j]

How much caster offset? that helps get some feel.

We also seem to like a 3" off better on RF. I also think running +5 LBJs help as well, and we like to keep RC in the middle but alot of guys move it left a bit.

[95shaw]

My understanding is that 7 degree spindle produces a larger arc that is associated with KPI

If we roll more negative caster in, up to matching KPI, we can move all camber gain (meaning more positive) from KPI to the countersteer portion of the steer cycle. Same applies for the Lf

We also need to remember that more negative static camber on the rf moves the scrub radius by moving contact center of contact patch.

We can accentuate the scrub radius effect on weight jacking by adding more positive camber to the lf.
This may achieve the nearly the same thing as changing ackerman without altering off the shelf components.

[Kromulous]

Larger arc radii, outboard looking into the wheel, producing less weight jacking on the chassis.

Your second statement has me thinking, still cant get my head around it yet. So you would run near 7* castor on the RF in order to keep the caster gain in the counter steer area?

Negative camber also produces somewhat of a "gears" effect, i think they call it camber thrust, where it makes the wheel want to turn into the camber automatically.

I love to alter things, so that dont bother me but what i am looking for is a bit of Pro Ackerman on the LF so the car steers in better on the fuel. You notice the SLM nowadays always look like there turning left going down the straightaway? Thats what there doing i believe.

[Kromulous]

Outlaw4j, i believe i have a 2* split. Really just getting into it, haven't had time to work on the front end yet, the back end has been giving us fits. Finally found some traction, and now looking for more speed elsewhere.

I am gonna replot everything, and will get the official numbers. We got a race on the 3rd, so i am going to get a 3" on the RF just to try.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I love to alter things, so that dont bother me but what i am looking for is a bit of Pro Ackerman on the LF so the car steers in better on the fuel. You notice the SLM nowadays always look like there turning left going down the straightaway? Thats what there doing i believe.

Krom,

What you are observing is a decent amount of toe out and a lf tire that is not influencing the cars direction at that time.

[outlaw4j]

Outlaw4j, i believe i have a 2* split. Really just getting into it, haven't had time to work on the front end yet, the back end has been giving us fits. Finally found some traction, and now looking for more speed elsewhere.

I am gonna replot everything, and will get the official numbers. We got a race on the 3rd, so i am going to get a 3" on the RF just to try.

6 on RF and 3 on LF. With the speedway spindle up to 7 on RF is ok.

I dont think you are off anywhere, what you are feeling is pretty normal with a mod. For my son we tied the RF down a bit too just to help that RF stay down as you pick up the throttle.

[95shaw]

Krom
If you draw the arc at the end of the spindle with no caster, the ends of the spindle move downward in both turn in and countersteer.
If you roll that arc back with negative caster, the ends of the described arc roll with it, ending up with the turn in end moving up slightly from the height at steering straight ahead, and the countersteer end of the arc moving downward much more substantially.

I have a picture from another discussion, but cannot get it to post.

[Kromulous]

Ok, gotcha. I was thinking the same but wanted to make sure.

I dont think i have that much castor on the RF, will get it checked, and reset if needed. I put a simple angle finder on the spindle an it was 4*, but will check it using the 20* swing method.

MBR, i think there is more to it, i was inspecting a XR1 closely, and the steering arms are manipulated to produce some funny Ackerman.

[JustAddDirt]

Krom, are you using the Metric steering Arm, or the Mustang II?

[Kromulous]

Looks like the M2, standard looking three piece Speedway stamped spindle set. I see the metric arm is longer?

Pretty sure i got these: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Motors-Short-Arm-Metric-Replacement-Spindle,126815.html

This steering arm looks longer: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-34501-L-IMCA-Metric-3-Piece-Spindle-Kit-Left-Side,420996.html?sku=10634501L&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqrb7BRDlARIsACwGad7xJd53-4TPFhsl1zl8HASadxsiog9f1a_mBA1fSAr_RMDuy7aIl4kaApj rEALw_wcB

Its not this type: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/IMCA-Approved-Pinto-Mustang-II-Spindles,2102.html

I'll start walking around and looking more in the pits LOL.

[JustAddDirt]

Do you have a 6:1 or an 8:1 steering box, or a standard box with a quickener?

[Kromulous]

Its got a 8 to 1 Sweet box on it.

I will get down there today and make sure what spindles is on it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Ok, gotcha. I was thinking the same but wanted to make sure.

I dont think i have that much castor on the RF, will get it checked, and reset if needed. I put a simple angle finder on the spindle an it was 4*, but will check it using the 20* swing method.

MBR, i think there is more to it, i was inspecting a XR1 closely, and the steering arms are manipulated to produce some funny Ackerman.

I know rocket has some adjustable steering arms, but anything you do to enhance left turn toe out, induces counter steer toe in.

Watch that xr1 drive thru the pits and then again on the track.

[Confused?]

Krom, the three piece spindles you listed are the same except the arm lengths. The mod spindles have a shorter steering arm than the metric spindles. Check your track’s rules to make sure they allow mixing the steering arms. I know in IMCA land they don’t and some tracks actually look at them.

[Kromulous]

That would be funny in UMP land, they dont look at anything LOL, sad really. Although we did miss a heat race due to putting a 30 on the RR, so there is hope !! dumb mistake, but we got caught !

I'm not gonna try anything funky yet, just gonna get the front end set and try to get it to turn in a little sharper. Then maybe, but we got a ways to go.

Castor RF 6*, LF 2* (he likes it to pull him in), Toe was at 5/8s, will recheck, and camber about 6 on both side, positive on the LF of course. I need to check bumpsteer, but that will be a winter project.

I did notice today that it does not have the raised +.5 inch lower ball joint studs. What does this help with? should move the RC up, if you maintain the same shock length, but will lower the engine relative to ride height, and im not sure i want to do that. We have a sled up front, little M 23* 430.

[Kromulous]

I'll keep a look out on the toe and the XR1s MBR !!

[outlaw4j]

I did notice today that it does not have the raised +.5 inch lower ball joint studs. What does this help with? should move the RC up, if you maintain the same shock length, but will lower the engine relative to ride height, and im not sure i want to do that. We have a sled up front, little M 23* 430.

I'm not a super duper vehicle dynamics guy, but it seems to help our car get on the RF a bit better, we still measure ride height off the AArm bolt, so when it is dropped with the LBJ we get to add free preload (load) to the RF. Going back and forth we didnt see any real difference in shock travel, just seems to drive a bit better for us.

I would say its like anything in racing it something worth a try sometime when you have things apart. We use the Howe ones so they are easy to change

[Kromulous]

Outlaw4j, you guys on a bump stop deal? Yeah we got the Howe ones too, i will order some xtra studs.

[outlaw4j]

Outlaw4j, you guys on a bump stop deal?

we are not

[stock car driver]

Howe studs are soft. qa1 are much better Ive had them bent 90 degrees multiple times and finished races. Howe snapped on me and cost me some races....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Howe studs are soft. qa1 are much better Ive had them bent 90 degrees multiple times and finished races. Howe snapped on me and cost me some races....

Soft steel bends. Hard steel breaks. Just an fyi, from a person who spent most of their life in material sciences.