Michael Page

[NeedforLM$peed]

DQ'ed at Volusia for failing post race tech. $10k win was given to Bronson

[chupp n bloomer fan]

DQ'ed at Volusia for failing post race tech. $10k win was given to BronsonSeen that, no idea what he got nailed for.

[dalemcfan]

I read dq for valve springs on facebook so it has to be true

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I read dq for valve springs on facebook so it has to be trueWhen DoD elaborated, it was an infraction outside the seals. So the engine builder isn’t banned. Which I believe you are correct. Because if I remember right, the valve springs and that were something not part of the sealed deal. Though, ya cannot run illegal ones. Though I have no idea on the benefits of better ones. I’m sure someone will enlighten us.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The valve train is the weak link that limits those engines. You can't turn them over 6800 without blowing them up. Fixing that weak link will help a lot. Especially on restart as you can then run a lower gear.

[NeedforLM$peed]

It was on the restarts where he was definitely pulling on them into another zip code. I knew it had more to do than being in a 07' or 09' Masters.

[formercrewguy]

It was valve spring height. My opinion is more height= less chance of floating valves at high rpm.

[Wells Racing Photos]

"The inspection process ended up being a long one as the winner's engine failed post-race inspection due to the valve spring installed height did not meet the GM Performance specifications."


From a CrateRacin' employee's post.

[chopter33]

in a deal like this do they completely tear down the engine? or stop once they find something illegal?

[TheJet-09]

^^^ I was also curious if they inspect the inherent winner (in this case, I believe it was Bronson) to the same extent? I would hope so, at least, for that amount of money.

[EvelB7]

Changing the valve spring installed height can effectively help eliminate valve float, or at least move it to a higher RPM range... You are allowed to 'correct' the install height but not alter it more than allowed, I guess it is the droop rule of valvetrain!

[Wells Racing Photos]

in a deal like this do they completely tear down the engine? or stop once they find something illegal?

Most tech inspections that I have seen are stopped once something is found illegal.

[Wells Racing Photos]

^^^ I was also curious if they inspect the inherent winner (in this case, I believe it was Bronson) to the same extent? I would hope so, at least, for that amount of money.

With CrateRacin' they do tear down the second place and so on until a legal car/motor is found....

[chopter33]

Most tech inspections that I have seen are stopped once something is found illegal.thanks. so basically all these little engine builders "mistakes" seem to be on purpose so they dont tear the engine all the way down and find the blatant cheating.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Washers under the springs, if they did tech before the cars went on track half the field would be dq'd.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Washers under the springs, if they did tech before the cars went on track half the field would be dq'd.

You may be right. I know its real hard to beat a guy as talented as Page when he's cheating you too. Especially in an area where so much could be gained.

[EvelB7]

The crate series (and CrateRacin' USA in particular) do a great job in tech from my experience. These cars are so equal that everyone wants to be right on the edge to be sure they get the most out of them (so maybe a little carbon buildup puts you out of spec, or you just can't read a micrometer and push things a little far). Calling everyone a 'cheater' is just an easy excuse for getting beat. It does happen but not as often as everyone would like to believe.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The crate series (and CrateRacin' USA in particular) do a great job in tech from my experience. These cars are so equal that everyone wants to be right on the edge to be sure they get the most out of them (so maybe a little carbon buildup puts you out of spec, or you just can't read a micrometer and push things a little far). Calling everyone a 'cheater' is just an easy excuse for getting beat. It does happen but not as often as everyone would like to believe.
I agree with you, it's up to tech. If it's good, then there is a lot less cheating.

Unfortunately, it's a class where cheating can yield a big edge because the cars are severely under powered. I like classes that don't require rulebook enforcement as much to keep cars close.

[EvelB7]

I prefer that as well, however the crate class has also allowed quite a few guys to keep racing (I am one). I would much rather bolt a 900 horsepower engine down between the frame rails, just can't afford it. I ran with CrateRacin' USA for a couple of years, they kept everyone honest (at least at that time).

[davis2902]

Was he dq'ed from Thursday portion as he was running same motor?

[Jking24]

If you've ever been to any of the big passing crate races and hung around after. You would know the top three engines usually get tore completely down and every measurement checked and if it doesent have gm deals it must meet every spec. The area that page got disqualified for is very easy to be illegal in and not from trying to cheat. If i remember correctly they dont have a installed height number but a seat pressure number.i think it's somthing like 110# if your over, your illegal. I have seen spring checkers vary and i have also seen the plate on the checker come loose allowing a little flex yeilding a lower number. We're talking about a number that .010"-.020" installed height change can easily push you over the limit. While i agree this is a easy area to cheat in is a really easy area to get caught in aswell. I doubt he intentionally cheated he may have attempted to push it to the very upper limit and rightfully so. Jmo

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I prefer that as well, however the crate class has also allowed quite a few guys to keep racing (I am one). I would much rather bolt a 900 horsepower engine down between the frame rails, just can't afford it. I ran with CrateRacin' USA for a couple of years, they kept everyone honest (at least at that time).

We just bolt in a steel block $8k engine and do the best we can. Lol. Pick your battles.

[billetbirdcage]

For those not familiar with checking that valve spring install hieght, this is how it's done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAK-SDr0qP0

Now, who knows who checked or set it on pages engine, but it NOT that easy to miss the number if you are using a proper install hieght mic like shown in video or are just flat pushing the height to the limit. Now if you're using a scale/ruler or dial calipers then YES it's easy to miss by .020 but why would you check and set it without the proper tools?

https://www.speednik.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/05/SPRING-02.jpg

[Jking24]

For those not familiar with checking that valve spring install hieght, this is how it's done.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAK-SDr0qP0Now, who knows who checked or set it on pages engine, but it NOT that easy to miss the number if you are using a proper install hieght mic like shown in video or are just flat pushing the height to the limit. Now if you're using a scale/ruler or dial calipers then YES it's easy to miss by .020 but why would you check and set it without the proper tools?https://www.speednik.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/05/SPRING-02.jpgWhile i agree with your statement im not suggesting sombody read the mic wrong I'm suggesting that the desired install height created to much seat pressure deaming him illegal. I did not watch the video but that is only one of the tools involved in setting valve springs correctly

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

While i agree with your statement im not suggesting sombody read the mic wrong I'm suggesting that the desired install height created to much seat pressure deaming him illegal. I did not watch the video but that is only one of the tools involved in setting valve springs correctly

Seat pressure is less easy to check. Are the rules not based on install height only? I thought it was? And that's why people buy a bunch of springs to cherry pick.

[EvelB7]

We just bolt in a steel block $8k engine and do the best we can. Lol. Pick your battles.Cars these days are so close it is hard to give up engine. I ran supers for over 20 years, our budget was small but we could at least make the big shows. Since that time technology has made it harder and harder for the team to be able to do this, however it has also created some very tough fields for those that can afford it. Nature of the beast really, can't stop progress (although you have to wonder if it is really progress when you look at car counts). But enough, I also agree that Page's infraction was most likely an error or wear and not intentional.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Cars these days are so close it is hard to give up engine. I ran supers for over 20 years, our budget was small but we could at least make the big shows. Since that time technology has made it harder and harder for the team to be able to do this, however it has also created some very tough fields for those that can afford it. Nature of the beast really, can't stop progress (although you have to wonder if it is really progress when you look at car counts). But enough, I also agree that Page's infraction was most likely an error or wear and not intentional.

I'm ok running where we can run decent. I don't have to run Lucas shows.

[billetbirdcage]

While i agree with your statement im not suggesting sombody read the mic wrong I'm suggesting that the desired install height created to much seat pressure deaming him illegal. I did not watch the video but that is only one of the tools involved in setting valve springs correctly

I'm only going off what was posted that the install height was incorrect. I know what your saying that the pressure may been too high and the install height was correct, but what was said here was the "install hieght was wrong" (not sure if that was the case, just going off what was posted)

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm only going off what was posted that the install height was incorrect. I know what your saying that the pressure may been too high and the install height was correct, but what was said here was the "install hieght was wrong" (not sure if that was the case, just going off what was posted)

Is that possible, with legal springs?

That said, Crate Racin's own press release said install height. But, I've seen mistakes made in print before.

[billetbirdcage]

Is that possible, with legal springs?

I'm pulling numbers out of my arse, too lazy to look up the correct numbers

The install hieght is spec'ed like at 1.78 +/- a certain amount like .020
The spring pressure has a max pressure of like 110#

So while possible that a spring is out of spec and has 115# at the 1.76 to 1.8 install height allowed, it's not very common. They know the range of the springs and have rules set so it doesn't happen often, but it is possible. The pressure rule is more for non stock springs and springs that look just like the stock ones but are slightly stiffer. Many of those have real similar seat pressures but the open pressure is higher and hard to check without pulling spring off head to check the full range of the spring not just the on head test for seat pressure with a pull type on head spring checker.

Again, just going off the report/post why he was D/Q'ed it seems he was out of spec on the install height, I didn't see anything posted about pressure. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus but if it was indeed a install hieght only infraction, then that was done by someone not taking the time to do it right or didn't have the proper tools to set it correctly. Also not saying it was done on purpose either, could been a mistake, but with things like that I would figure a decent team doesn't make mistakes like that, when it's one of the first things checked

[luke81]

This is the type of violation where i have a very hard time believing it was intentional just because you have to know they're going to check that.

[dirt farmer]

The reason I was thinking someone made a mistake was I had heard from someone there that only one spring checked wrong.

[TerryM]

They’re saying they removed a specific amount of shims (washers?), but accidentally left one too many in.

[Jking24]

So curiosity was killing the cat here. So i looked it up the valves are allowed to be shimmed a maximum of .020" to get seat pressure back after valve seat machining during a rebuild the seat pressure is 101# plus or minus 4# so basically 105#. If one takes the press release for its literal wording than it's must have measured wrong. But the two are directly related so if you told a engine guy your seat pressure was wrong he would tell you thats because your installed height is wrong. So to say the installed height is wrong could be interpreted as it's actually wrong or the spring pressure is incorrect since it is what controls that spec. Not trying to argue with anyone just thinking out loud

[ZERO25]

Whats kinda strange, he won the big crate race at Cochran just a couple months ago! Did they not check it then or was this a new motor?

[dirt farmer]

Whats kinda strange, he won the big crate race at Cochran just a couple months ago! Did they not check it then or was this a new motor?It was checked.And.was good, not sure but heard it was same motor just had it gone through.

[fastford]

I'm pulling numbers out of my arse, too lazy to look up the correct numbers

The install hieght is spec'ed like at 1.78 +/- a certain amount like .020
The spring pressure has a max pressure of like 110#

So while possible that a spring is out of spec and has 115# at the 1.76 to 1.8 install height allowed, it's not very common. They know the range of the springs and have rules set so it doesn't happen often, but it is possible. The pressure rule is more for non stock springs and springs that look just like the stock ones but are slightly stiffer. Many of those have real similar seat pressures but the open pressure is higher and hard to check without pulling spring off head to check the full range of the spring not just the on head test for seat pressure with a pull type on head spring checker.

Again, just going off the report/post why he was D/Q'ed it seems he was out of spec on the install height, I didn't see anything posted about pressure. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus but if it was indeed a install hieght only infraction, then that was done by someone not taking the time to do it right or didn't have the proper tools to set it correctly. Also not saying it was done on purpose either, could been a mistake, but with things like that I would figure a decent team doesn't make mistakes like that, when it's one of the first things checked

springs out of spec are more common than you think with these cheaper springs , thats why builders like Brad go through a bunch of springs just to get a set like they want that will comply with tech , i have bought a lot of the throw away,s from a local builder for half price that under normal applications were fine , this is the problem with a crate engines , if you want the very best LEGAL engine , you have to pay the piper .......

[billetbirdcage]

springs out of spec are more common than you think with these cheaper springs , thats why builders like Brad go through a bunch of springs just to get a set like they want that will comply with tech , i have bought a lot of the throw away,s from a local builder for half price that under normal applications were fine , this is the problem with a crate engines , if you want the very best LEGAL engine , you have to pay the piper .......

I've spent 2 full days on the Spintron for the 604, if you want to believe that the 5 or even 10# variance you see in springs makes a difference. . . . shrugs.

Most people would be shocked to what has an effect and what doesn't

[84wedge]

It amazing that would be such a big advantage in such an old car. People are constantly talking about new cars being faster, and the fact that even new Mastersbilt aren't faster makes it more amazing one 10+ years old crossed the line before a new XR1. There was an article in Dirt Late Model Magazine about Page years ago and one of his sponsors talking about how he was one of the few drivers left who could cut the front clip off the car and rework it all by himself. I wonder it Tader knows about the mods Page has made to that chassis.

[Jking24]

It amazing that would be such a big advantage in such an old car. People are constantly talking about new cars being faster, and the fact that even new Mastersbilt aren't faster makes it more amazing one 10+ years old crossed the line before a new XR1. There was an article in Dirt Late Model Magazine about Page years ago and one of his sponsors talking about how he was one of the few drivers left who could cut the front clip off the car and rework it all by himself. I wonder it Tader knows about the mods Page has made to that chassis.Not knocking anything Paige has done but just because it's a good crate car doesent mean it can compete with an open motor in it. Most guys in crates get caught up chasing the newer setups and their car couldn't spin a tire with the old stuff so alot of it is all for nothing.

[NeedforLM$peed]

Was he dq'ed from Thursday portion as he was running same motor?

No but that might've been something they didn't check considering it paid much less on Thursday than Saturday.

Lots of good insight and info.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Not knocking anything Paige has done but just because it's a good crate car doesent mean it can compete with an open motor in it. Most guys in crates get caught up chasing the newer setups and their car couldn't spin a tire with the old stuff so alot of it is all for nothing.And I’m sure it’s been totally updated and has all the latest stuff. Not like it’s as is from 10 years ago for sure.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

^^Page was saying in a DOD article last year that nothing was done to that car. I'm not buying it either. Even in crates. But, what Jking said has some merit as well.

[fastford]

I've spent 2 full days on the Spintron for the 604, if you want to believe that the 5 or even 10# variance you see in springs makes a difference. . . . shrugs.

Most people would be shocked to what has an effect and what doesn't

i guess i am a bit behind the times billet , tell me how you can tell the difference a spring makes on a spintron ? , now i can see a dyno , but i thought a spintron is more for breaking in an engine , not evaluating if 10# of seat pressure makes a difference in the performance of the engine.....

[billetbirdcage]

i guess i am a bit behind the times billet , tell me how you can tell the difference a spring makes on a spintron ? , now i can see a dyno , but i thought a spintron is more for breaking in an engine , not evaluating if 10# of seat pressure makes a difference in the performance of the engine.....

Spintron is not for breaking in anything, it's to measure valve train performance and stability. The valves go out of control at 6750 rpm, anything you change shows up on the graph as far as valve bounce, lofting, spring surge and just generally how well it follows the cam profile are different RPM's.

What I'm saying is those Good/matched/higher pressure stock valve springs that have say 8# more pressure then the others:

1: once the engine runs at 1200 idle RPM the valve spring has cycled 10 times a second. Do you really think it is still the same 8# higher then the other springs? Take one of those new springs and cycle it 10 times in a vise and retest the spring and tell me if it's not about the same as the other springs or didn't lose a ton of the 8# advantage? (this isn't also getting the spring hot to 200+ degrees)

2: Pressure isn't the only factor on controlling the valve, sometimes less pressure can be more stable at times if the right things are met. There is a reason Cup engines only have 90/100# of seat pressure and can run 10K RPM, it's not all about pressure.

3. Now a 604 makes no power at the 6750 RPM anyways, but getting more RPM allows you to run more gear if needed and not destroy the engine or allows you to chip the engine higher. My point is that those match springs or slightly higher poundage you pay a premium for have no real effect on the valve train going nuts and trying to self destruct at 6750.

4. When you have weak push rods, rocker studs, rockers and etc, adding unneeded spring pressure can just make flex/lofting/surge worse and actually make the valve train go unstable earlier (not always but many times). Many times it makes the valve not follow the cam profile and hurts power.

Obviously your not allow to change any of those things (only stock parts) but testing that stuff showed what mattered and what didn't. Not giving away any results but just maybe having a shorter install hieght (min allowed) and a weaker spring (low end of the springs ranges) could allow you to stay under the max seat pressure but since the spring is closer to coil bind, it surges less and increases the RPM before it goes nuts (again just a scenario)

[ZERO25]

Spintron is not for breaking in anything, it's to measure valve train performance and stability. The valves go out of control at 6750 rpm, anything you change shows up on the graph as far as valve bounce, lofting, spring surge and just generally how well it follows the cam profile are different RPM's.

What I'm saying is those Good/matched/higher pressure stock valve springs that have say 8# more pressure then the others:

1: once the engine runs at 1200 idle RPM the valve spring has cycled 10 times a second. Do you really think it is still the same 8# higher then the other springs? Take one of those new springs and cycle it 10 times in a vise and retest the spring and tell me if it's not about the same as the other springs or didn't lose a ton of the 8# advantage? (this isn't also getting the spring hot to 200+ degrees)

2: Pressure isn't the only factor on controlling the valve, sometimes less pressure can be more stable at times if the right things are met. There is a reason Cup engines only have 90/100# of seat pressure and can run 10K RPM, it's not all about pressure.

3. Now a 604 makes no power at the 6750 RPM anyways, but getting more RPM allows you to run more gear if needed and not destroy the engine or allows you to chip the engine higher. My point is that those match springs or slightly higher poundage you pay a premium for have no real effect on the valve train going nuts and trying to self destruct at 6750.

4. When you have weak push rods, rocker studs, rockers and etc, adding unneeded spring pressure can just make flex/lofting/surge worse and actually make the valve train go unstable earlier (not always but many times). Many times it makes the valve not follow the cam profile and hurts power.

Obviously your not allow to change any of those things (only stock parts) but testing that stuff showed what mattered and what didn't. Not giving away any results but just maybe having a shorter install hieght (min allowed) and a weaker spring (low end of the springs ranges) could allow you to stay under the max seat pressure but since the spring is closer to coil bind, it surges less and increases the RPM before it goes nuts (again just a scenario)


How many thousandths would you be able to say the engine builder mis-read the gauge or made a simple mistake instead of an all out attempt to cheat?

[Jking24]

How many thousandths would you be able to say the engine builder mis-read the gauge or made a simple mistake instead of an all out attempt to cheat?The rules say .020" so i would say anything more than that would be blatant cheating

[warriorracerg9]

I just want to say something here. Michael is one of my closest friends. He and I have raced out of the same shop for years. The hate this guy gets is ridiculous. Anyone that knows him knows he will help anyone with anything. Yes he races hard and sometimes a little aggressive and I have been on the receiving end of it too but he races to feed his family. It’s not a hobby for him. On yo the car. I was a partner in the car he raced last weekend. The car is of fact 11 years old. If most people looked at the car close they wouldn’t even race it. It’s rough, the frame has been patched up in a few places. We have pulled it back “straight” with a bob cat etc. it just works. It works because we do our own thing and the driver knows what he wants out of the car. Now for the engine. The engine was just freshened by a local engine builder. We didn’t touch it when we got it back. We didn’t shim any springs as a matter of fact the first time we took a valve cover off was Thursday night because it was leaking. Mistakes get made and that was a costly one but no one was cheating. .010 installed height discrepancy didn’t win that race.

[fastford]

Spintron is not for breaking in anything, it's to measure valve train performance and stability. The valves go out of control at 6750 rpm, anything you change shows up on the graph as far as valve bounce, lofting, spring surge and just generally how well it follows the cam profile are different RPM's.

What I'm saying is those Good/matched/higher pressure stock valve springs that have say 8# more pressure then the others:

1: once the engine runs at 1200 idle RPM the valve spring has cycled 10 times a second. Do you really think it is still the same 8# higher then the other springs? Take one of those new springs and cycle it 10 times in a vise and retest the spring and tell me if it's not about the same as the other springs or didn't lose a ton of the 8# advantage? (this isn't also getting the spring hot to 200+ degrees)

2: Pressure isn't the only factor on controlling the valve, sometimes less pressure can be more stable at times if the right things are met. There is a reason Cup engines only have 90/100# of seat pressure and can run 10K RPM, it's not all about pressure.

3. Now a 604 makes no power at the 6750 RPM anyways, but getting more RPM allows you to run more gear if needed and not destroy the engine or allows you to chip the engine higher. My point is that those match springs or slightly higher poundage you pay a premium for have no real effect on the valve train going nuts and trying to self destruct at 6750.

4. When you have weak push rods, rocker studs, rockers and etc, adding unneeded spring pressure can just make flex/lofting/surge worse and actually make the valve train go unstable earlier (not always but many times). Many times it makes the valve not follow the cam profile and hurts power.

Obviously your not allow to change any of those things (only stock parts) but testing that stuff showed what mattered and what didn't. Not giving away any results but just maybe having a shorter install hieght (min allowed) and a weaker spring (low end of the springs ranges) could allow you to stay under the max seat pressure but since the spring is closer to coil bind, it surges less and increases the RPM before it goes nuts (again just a scenario)

i remember reading an article a few years back about Bob Fox using it to test push rods and such in the 90,s i kept all those mags and found it , it says he along with hendrick developed it , which is not necessarily true , the manufacturers were and are still using a simular device to eliminate the break in period , may not be called a " spintron" though , any way , #1 , i have checked springs that were all perfect when installed and ran 200 laps and were still dead on , so i cant believe 10 times compressed in a vice will change any thing , but i have been wrong before and would have to see this to believe it...#2 , the use of extremely light valves to me would be the only way to achieve this , #3 , no offence brad , but i have to agree with this , #4 , i think the valve train of a 604 is plenty strong enough to handle more spring pressure , i say this because i have built 3 604s for other than crate rules and increased the spring rate by 20 lbs with all stock valve train and turned 7200 with no problems , maybe i was just lucky , IDK , I am not here to contradict all your saying , i respect your opinion and have learned a lot from you , but i have experience and an opinion as well , thats all ......

[fastford]

warriorracing , i have talked to michael , and probably you several times and i agree with your above post , no one is perfect on a race track but you guy,s are fine by me......

[Jking24]

Warrior racer. Thanks for commenting. If you don't mind would you share exactly what and how it was found to be deemed "illegal"

[Barbecueboy]

He has more fans than haters.....I r one.

I like what he does and what he does it with.

[ZERO25]

Good post warrior racer.......most of us realize that mistake didnt win him the race! He obviously knows how to make a car work for him.........some of them sliders, though! :)

[chupp n bloomer fan]

He has more fans than haters.....I r one.

I like what he does and what he does it with.I think he’s very talented, and I used to like him, but he is very similar to Madden. Don’t do anything that is close to aggressive driving or I’ll throw a hissy and probably punt you. But I can do it and it’s ok.

[Barbecueboy]

I've never met page or talked to him , but I like them both.

[TerryM]

Count my wife and I as fans too. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again ... we’ve watched Michael race in person many times and have seen him win a lot of races. Not once have we seen him do anything dirty. Yes, I’ve heard of a couple incidents — the same kind of stuff every driver has had. The hate he gets is indeed ridiculous. But it’s mostly from locals whose ass he beats regularly, and people who have probably never even seen him race in person.