Chasing an Issue on the LR/RF

[missile07]

Looking for advice....knowledge...help

Bought a new car this spring & won several races straight out of the box. Anytime we were loading the car in the hauler or in the pits and he turned the car to the left it would instantly lift up the left rear and smash the RF nose to the ground. The car sat up really high in the RF and squatted in the LR. The car had a 3 spring LR stack with no lock out nut that came out to be roughly 40lbs.

Got in a wreck one night and bent the shaft on the LR shock(Bilstein). Sent the shock back to the builder and got the shaft replaced & sent back. From then on the car will not get up on the bars. Will not pick up at all when moving in the pits and more importantly on the track unless it in hammer down traction. Now the car sits higher in the LR and lower on the RF

We assumed we had something else bent. Changed out complete RF suspension, checked birdcages, checked 4 links bars, etc.....found nothing else bent or binding.

Not exact numbers but our smash numbers are:
RF 700 @ 19" 2050 @ 14.25" 200 lb single spring
LF 600 @ 17 " 350 single spring
RR 350 @ 20" 250 single spring
LR 420 @ 20" & 165 @ 24"(dropped out) * triple stack at roughly 40lbs WITH lockout nut

Will not climb the bars. Bar angles are the same. We have tried the triple stack without the lockout nut, added gas 150psi to LR shock, we have changed RF shocks & lowered compression & load down to 675 @ 18".

I can walk up to the RF nose and barely put pressure and it goes to the ground. I can go to the rear bumper and with one hand lift the LR to near full travel but on its own it will not lift. I can jump on the rear bumper and the car will not go down on the left rear.

One night out of desperation, I grabbed a older spare Integra LR shock with a 125 spring for our other car and stuck it on. Car lifted LR, wrinkled the tire and slammed the RF nose down.

Two different builders have looked at the LR shock(Bilstein) now and both say it looks fine.

What are we missing?

[grt74]

1st thing comes to mind is a bind somewhere, 2nd is did you reverse engineer it??? are you sure those where the correct numbers (not trying to be a smart ass here) and if you put a different shock on her and she worked (car acted fine) i think you have your answer

[Kromulous]

I would take the triple stack and put in on the Integra, if it works you have the answer.

[missile07]

GRT74- We initially thought bind somewhere, so we replaced all a-arms, spindles, and ball joints. Replaced 4 link bars, and checked out birdcages on both sides. Took 5th coil shock setup off and checked it.

The load numbers are correct for us & this car. We have even played with another set of load numbers closer to standard and nothing.

KROM- We dont have enough threads on the Integra to do the same exact triple stack that we have setup with the bilstein. We did try a simple stack last night late with the integra and it was better but we dont have the correct springs currently to get it to what we need.

[keeks]

Just a note about the post. You first say that you had no lockout nut on the LR, but then in your smash numbers you say you have a lockout nut. Typo? Could that change be the issue?

[missile07]

Sorry I should have clarified.

Originally we had the triple stack with no lock nut....shock got bent & we put it back with the lock nut at our smash number (24" @165-200) and it wouldn't hike. Shock builder #1 and shock builder #2 both said the driver would like it better with lock not. So they added the nut with the triple stack (24" @ 165) and again no lift.

[billetbirdcage]

Sorry I should have clarified.

Originally we had the triple stack with no lock nut....shock got bent & we put it back with the lock nut at our smash number (24" @165-200) and it wouldn't hike. Shock builder #1 and shock builder #2 both said the driver would like it better with lock not. So they added the nut with the triple stack (24" @ 165) and again no lift.

Can you clarify where the lock nut is now? under the bottom floater plate or above one of them?

And, not 100% clear if you tried without lock nut after wreck (so it's been tried with and without lock nut after wreck and still no hike?)

[missile07]

Lock not is under the floater plate near the bottom of the threads. Should only affect extended load & was setup and put on by the shock builder #2.

Yes it has been tried with and without the lock nut and no hike either way.

[victorylane]

Is there a LR front shock on it?

[missile07]

No front shock

[Jking24]

Sounds like you had somthing you shouldn't have and they fixed it for you. Seriously though you say your dealing with two shock builders are either one of them the original builder ?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Looking for advice....knowledge...help

Bought a new car this spring & won several races straight out of the box. Anytime we were loading the car in the hauler or in the pits and he turned the car to the left it would instantly lift up the left rear and smash the RF nose to the ground. The car sat up really high in the RF and squatted in the LR. The car had a 3 spring LR stack with no lock out nut that came out to be roughly 40lbs.

Got in a wreck one night and bent the shaft on the LR shock(Bilstein). Sent the shock back to the builder and got the shaft replaced & sent back. From then on the car will not get up on the bars. Will not pick up at all when moving in the pits and more importantly on the track unless it in hammer down traction. Now the car sits higher in the LR and lower on the RF

We assumed we had something else bent. Changed out complete RF suspension, checked birdcages, checked 4 links bars, etc.....found nothing else bent or binding.

Not exact numbers but our smash numbers are:
RF 700 @ 19" 2050 @ 14.25" 200 lb single spring
LF 600 @ 17 " 350 single spring
RR 350 @ 20" 250 single spring
LR 420 @ 20" & 165 @ 24"(dropped out) * triple stack at roughly 40lbs WITH lockout nut

Will not climb the bars. Bar angles are the same. We have tried the triple stack without the lockout nut, added gas 150psi to LR shock, we have changed RF shocks & lowered compression & load down to 675 @ 18".

I can walk up to the RF nose and barely put pressure and it goes to the ground. I can go to the rear bumper and with one hand lift the LR to near full travel but on its own it will not lift. I can jump on the rear bumper and the car will not go down on the left rear.

One night out of desperation, I grabbed a older spare Integra LR shock with a 125 spring for our other car and stuck it on. Car lifted LR, wrinkled the tire and slammed the RF nose down.

Two different builders have looked at the LR shock(Bilstein) now and both say it looks fine.

What are we missing?

If your car sits different at static ride, the loads are different. Shock mount change or way more rod pressure in a shock could explain it.

[missile07]

Yes we are dealing with the original builder of the shock. The original builder replaced the bent shaft and said everything else looked fine. Swears he did not change anything other than the shaft. We tried it and it will not hike in the LR. Took it a to a local shock guy to look at and he talked with our original shock guy and says it looks fine to him as well. Still nothing.

When I say the car sits higher in the LR and lower in the RF we thought maybe it was an optical illusion because we just put a new body on it but its not. The car will not settle in the LR. We left it sitting over night Friday night at ride height and come back Saturday morning and it had dropped from a spoiler height of 41" to 38.5". Shock mounts have not moved.

We are going to basically strip the car to the frame and make sure we haven't missed something. Just frustrating

[dirtrace09]

Tell us about the wreck that bent the shaft. Where on the car did it take the hit? Also, how did the car move when it was hit? I am guessing another corner took some of the brunt of the impact (even if it wasn't the direct hit) and is possibly the culprit.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yes we are dealing with the original builder of the shock. The original builder replaced the bent shaft and said everything else looked fine. Swears he did not change anything other than the shaft. We tried it and it will not hike in the LR. Took it a to a local shock guy to look at and he talked with our original shock guy and says it looks fine to him as well. Still nothing.

When I say the car sits higher in the LR and lower in the RF we thought maybe it was an optical illusion because we just put a new body on it but its not. The car will not settle in the LR. We left it sitting over night Friday night at ride height and come back Saturday morning and it had dropped from a spoiler height of 41" to 38.5". Shock mounts have not moved.

We are going to basically strip the car to the frame and make sure we haven't missed something. Just frustrating

Birdcage bearings?

[MachineMasters]

Sounds like there is little to no compression bleed in the shock. I'd verify with the shock builder that the bleed size did not change at all.

4-link rod ends - did you replace them? If the hit was in the rear a rod end (or two or more) may have stretched and is now binding under load.

Measure rear end straightness? Wouldn't explain the Integra fixing the problem but if the rear end was bent badly..

[missile07]

The wreck happened on a restart...leader brake checked we were second and the third place car ran up under him & picked his rearend up off the track. Finished the race with the bent shaft.

We decided over the weekend that we will are going to take rearend out of the car and make absolutely sure there isn't a bent axle tube, etc.

I should have more info in the morning.

[dirtrace09]

With the rearend out check all the heims, birdcages and the rr shock. Don't forget to check the lift arm heims as well. I hope you find the issue. These things can be very frustrating.

[fastford]

The wreck happened on a restart...leader brake checked we were second and the third place car ran up under him & picked his rearend up off the track. Finished the race with the bent shaft.

We decided over the weekend that we will are going to take rearend out of the car and make absolutely sure there isn't a bent axle tube, etc.

I should have more info in the morning.

so you finished the race with the bent shaft ? was it getting up on the bars after the wreck or did it start staying flat right after the wreck ?

[Dirtslinger20]

I’m assuming you’re using a chain as a Limiter.... might sound a lil crazy, but a local guy here fought a similar problem with not getting any hike at all at times.... his chain was catching the axle mount and binding up

[missile07]

Yes he finished the race with the bent shaft (bent down near the rod end) and yes the car would continue to climb the bars...like I said in the original post, if he is on a tacky track the car will hike once it hits traction but will not otherwise & will not leaving the pits, & not at all in the slick.

We are on a chain and we went ahead and checked the motion on it as well.

I can easily lift the LR of the car from ride height to near full travel by picking up on the bumper & I can easily push the nose down on the RF to full travel. But own its own the car cannot lift in the LR. We feel like something is binding once there is a load applied to it.

[MachineMasters]

Rod ends can sometimes rotate free with no load and then bind up with load. If you have a smash machine, put a 4 link rod in and compress to 1500lbs and make sure you can still turn the rod ends by hand.

I'd pull the driveshaft out and make sure the ballspline or slip yoke can move into the transmission with little resistance.

Double check the bearings on the LR shocks.

Ensure the sliders on the LR shock behind aren't binding or catching on the shock body - can look fine on a machine when the shock is straight up and down but when installed can bind from the shock angle.

The static LR load number looks low in my opinion. Raising that up to 600lbs or so should make the LR want to extend easier from ride height, depending on how the stack is setup.. A common LR load at static height would be in the 600-700lb range. I like your extended load range.

[Jking24]

I would definitely look into the drive shaft situation as mentioned. Also you say you have a "triple stack" is it a two spring stack with a take up spring or a true three spring setup. If it is does it have multiple lock outs and are you sure the stack is still operating as it originally was.

[missile07]

A true triple stack (3 separate springs). It has been checked and nothing seems wrong there. Took all 4 4 link rods off and replaced, took 5th coil shock off and replaced & ran torque arm thru the motions and nothing. Going back at it tonight. Pulled axles out to make sure that they come out easy.

Nearly ruled everything out other than brake fluid and lower radiator hose!!!

[fastford]

Yes he finished the race with the bent shaft (bent down near the rod end) and yes the car would continue to climb the bars...like I said in the original post, if he is on a tacky track the car will hike once it hits traction but will not otherwise & will not leaving the pits, & not at all in the slick.

We are on a chain and we went ahead and checked the motion on it as well.

I can easily lift the LR of the car from ride height to near full travel by picking up on the bumper & I can easily push the nose down on the RF to full travel. But own its own the car cannot lift in the LR. We feel like something is binding once there is a load applied to it.

this rules out a lot of thoughts wreck related , now like has been mentioned , if a moving part got damaged , then it might have still worked for the rest of that race and seized up later , IE: a damaged rod end or bird cage bearing could cause this....JMO...

[missile07]

I have had several people private message me and I am very open to any and every option of trying stuff. Several have asked about checking birdcages, rod ends, j-bar, torque arm while it has a load on them? Other than just replacing with new parts how would I go about applying a load and checking these parts?

[Punisher88]

I go back to it works fine with one shock and not the other. Why wouldn't that stuff be binding on the Integra? That in itself removes a bind from being possible. Imo

[missile07]

The day I put the Integra on at the track it had a 125 single spring on it. I smashed it to our extended load number and stuck it on and didn't change anything else. This had the static ride height alot higher than normal, but I didn't have other springs to change it or make a stack. It had the car really really jacked up on the LR corner, so much that the driver had to use a tire to stand on to get in the car....last night we stuck a double stack spring (66 lbs) on the integra and got the extended load correct and static load close. It would not lift it.

With the spring rate being higher(125) and the static ride height already being higher with the combo on at the track, have the car high enough that it was easier to transfer that weight or is the static ride height high enough that it could possibly be past a bind in the suspension?

[phenom08]

Need to actually pull the birdcages off the rear end and feel the bearings by hand. Rocking them back and forth while still installed will lie to you. I found this out the hard way. The race will spin on the tube when there's no weight on it. Also you can put 4 link rods, j bar, etc in your spring smasher. Load to say 600 pounds and see if they move freely. May need to fabricate adaptors

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The day I put the Integra on at the track it had a 125 single spring on it. I smashed it to our extended load number and stuck it on and didn't change anything else. This had the static ride height alot higher than normal, but I didn't have other springs to change it or make a stack. It had the car really really jacked up on the LR corner, so much that the driver had to use a tire to stand on to get in the car....last night we stuck a double stack spring (66 lbs) on the integra and got the extended load correct and static load close. It would not lift it.

With the spring rate being higher(125) and the static ride height already being higher with the combo on at the track, have the car high enough that it was easier to transfer that weight or is the static ride height high enough that it could possibly be past a bind in the suspension?

You could very well just be getting the trust angle too low as the ride height sags.

[missile07]

How low would be too low? General static starting points?

[missile07]

It should be the same as before at our static ride height. No bars have been changed.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

It should be the same as before at our static ride height. No bars have been changed.

All this talk about stop nuts and no stop nuts make me think something is different. With that low ride load, I think this thing would sag until you bottom a shock or something.

Min bar angle gonna depends on a lot of variables. I'm not as extreme as you on soft spring rate and have more ride load. I still have to sit on a bumpstop to get consistent static ride height.

[missile07]

The shock builder and chassis builder suggested that we try a locknut with that specific shock and spring combo. Originally we didn't have it on before we had any issues. After the shock got bent and we started having issues we decided to try it. So we have tried it with and without the lock out nut. Reset the static ride heights both ways as well.

We swapped j-bar and driveshaft last night. Re-smashed all the shocks. The only suspension pieces we have not changed currently is the LF upper, lower and spindle. We have all the stuff to do it and plan on trying Saturday.

Looking at the static ride height while sitting on the ground. With a bent 15 inch LR lower bar there is only an inch of height difference between where the bar is mounted on the birdcage and where the bar is mounted on the frame. These are both our standard holes and we do not and have not changed them.

I cant get the pic to upload but when we have it currently at ride height there is roughly 1.75 to 2 inches of shock shaft showing on the LR.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The shock builder and chassis builder suggested that we try a locknut with that specific shock and spring combo. Originally we didn't have it on before we had any issues. After the shock got bent and we started having issues we decided to try it. So we have tried it with and without the lock out nut. Reset the static ride heights both ways as well.

We swapped j-bar and driveshaft last night. Re-smashed all the shocks. The only suspension pieces we have not changed currently is the LF upper, lower and spindle. We have all the stuff to do it and plan on trying Saturday.

Looking at the static ride height while sitting on the ground. With a bent 15 inch LR lower bar there is only an inch of height difference between where the bar is mounted on the birdcage and where the bar is mounted on the frame. These are both our standard holes and we do not and have not changed them.

I cant get the pic to upload but when we have it currently at ride height there is roughly 1.75 to 2 inches of shock shaft showing on the LR.

My car can lose 1" of shock shaft from the driver leaning over in the seat.

[missile07]

With the driver in the car it will go down .5" consistently. I questioned it when we got the car but the chassis builder says its right. Another local with the same chassis does the same.

[Len72P]

I agree with Master , If you are smashing 420 @ 20 inch , which is probably static ride height , you had to be on a Bump stop or the car would drop another 3 inch based on 60 lb. per inch load. If you sent your bent spring assy. for repair , the bump stop could have easily been misplaced. With chassis LR extra down travel , the trust angle is ugly. On a bad fast heavy track might be OK. but on a slower slick track ?? .

[CCHIEF]

Gotta wonder if you bent the shock shaft how a lateral load got applied to it ?? Was the rod bushing replaced also?? Check shock for excessive lateral movement! What else was involved in being able to apply that lateral loading?? Top out or bottom out? Look for binds in heims...on the shock?? Start moving parts with car on ground weight load on moving parts. HTH

[Jking24]

I'm a little confused about the lock out and no luck out situation aswell. Their had to be a bump stop or somthing else to maintain ride hieght on such a soft setup with no collar. Was this a coil bind setup. It's very possible the springs got damaged when the shock got bent. And are no longer functioning correctly through travel. Back to your original statement if static ride hieght is now different. Somthing on the car is not what it previously was

[billetbirdcage]

Did you happen to check the LRL bar since you got hit in the LR? Assuming you have a pre-bent one on the car, so check and make sure the bar didn't shorten a bunch (IE supposed to be 15" and now 14")

Also check the J-bar and make sure it didn't shorten as well

[grt74]

I'm a little confused about the lock out and no luck out situation aswell. Their had to be a bump stop or somthing else to maintain ride hieght on such a soft setup with no collar. Was this a coil bind setup. It's very possible the springs got damaged when the shock got bent. And are no longer functioning correctly through travel. Back to your original statement if static ride hieght is now different. Somthing on the car is not what it previously was

I'm going to go with this one, springs got damaged, or something with the shock is goofy, if all is the same and you put a different shock on, then the new shock fixes it, its somewhere right there, now i did have this one happen to me before on the lr, car was crazy fast, got hit in lr, broke the snout on the axle tube, took 2 races to figure it out, now i check the snouts on any bump of said rear end, and yes before i get beat with a whip, it all checked out in the shop

[grt74]

take it to where you bought it, pay them to fix it and tell you what it was, if thats what it takes

[Jking24]

I'm going to go with this one, springs got damaged, or something with the shock is goofy, if all is the same and you put a different shock on, then the new shock fixes it, its somewhere right there, now i did have this one happen to me before on the lr, car was crazy fast, got hit in lr, broke the snout on the axle tube, took 2 races to figure it out, now i check the snouts on any bump of said rear end, and yes before i get beat with a whip, it all checked out in the shopUsually when this happens the brake pedal goes soft or gets inconsistent at some point

[missile07]

Just to follow up...

We have installed a new transmission and yoke but we haven't been able to test it due to a recent snow storm. I have also ordered all new swift springs for the triple stack. (After several messages about the possibility of a bad spring).

On that is there anyway to test a spring to see if it has gone bad?

[grt74]

Just to follow up...

We have installed a new transmission and yoke but we haven't been able to test it due to a recent snow storm. I have also ordered all new swift springs for the triple stack. (After several messages about the possibility of a bad spring).

On that is there anyway to test a spring to see if it has gone bad?

soft springs can collapse, but as bad as you are saying it is i would think you would see it, you can check in a smasher
but they say if it looses more than 2% you should change the spring, but what your taking about sounds extreme to me

[missile07]

Just throwing this out there.

When the triple stack is set correctly at ride height, the plastic coil stackers that go between the springs are very close to touching( possibly touching). What would this do to the spring rate? Could it cause it to be near solid or so high that the springs are sluggish to lift the car?

(this was a suggestion to look at thru a private message)

[Jking24]

If they are touching it is essentially canceling out the middle spring during any further tavel witch would increase spring rate. I have no experience with triple stacks but i would guess this is supposed to do the same as a lock out collar to increase spring rate in order to hold the car up at ride height

[Swedge]

Quick Question here: Have you checked the 5th, 6th and lift arm at all? Its making me wonder if the bars are low enough that your instant center of the left side bars is right at the point where you getting low enough with the antisquat percentage that the traction in the track is allowing just enough migration to get the car up on the bars but when there is no traction available it goes away. If your lift arm assembly got damaged (lift arm is broken, spring failed on either the 5th of 6th coil) or just by happenstance broke at the time of the incident you could be chasing your tail. Obv, im assuming that you have checked for binds and other clearance issues as other members have discussed. A broken, cracked or bent birdcage could cause the same issue if you are binding the heim before the car gets on the chain. Im just offering a few other things to look at since it seems like you are quickly depleting options and budget.

[JustAddDirt]

sounds to me like by op's description that the LR is statically higher with the Integra shock. Which leads me to believe the issue is with the car sitting too low, and not wanting to get up on the bars. In my option he needs to a, get a new lr bump stop, or add a couple packers to increase the static ride height just a bit.
JMO though. If bolting on another shock fixed the issue, and car seems to act like it did before.

[missile07]

Thanks for the replies.

We have changed out the 5th coil shock, took lift bar loose and checked it. We have not replaced the birdcages yet but have taken them off and checked them per the chassis builder.

There has never been a bump stop on the LR shock. The car has always sat very low in the lr and according to the chassis builder is on purpose. We played with the triple stack springs this weekend on the smasher and one of them starts bending once very much load is applied. We have ordered new springs but they have not come in yet. Chassis builder thinks this spring is bad and it doesn't have enough energy to "pop" the left rear up from the low ride height. I'd like to understand more about the stored energy in springs but honestly I dont know.

Just to confirm we weren't completely crazy, we stuck the integra with the 125 spring on the left rear again. Sat the car down and it is 1.5" higher at ride height. Driver got in and drove the car 15ft and turned left and it planted the LR and jumped up.

[missile07]

Also here are some measurements if it helps on how low the LR in this car sits..

From the ground to the center of the upper shock mounts:

RF-27 3/4"
LF-27 3/4"
RR-26 1/2"
LR-25 1/2"

These numbers are with the triple stack setup. The center to center number with the triple stack at ride height is at 18 1/4".

Again these numbers are with the old springs.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Thanks for the replies.

We have changed out the 5th coil shock, took lift bar loose and checked it. We have not replaced the birdcages yet but have taken them off and checked them per the chassis builder.

There has never been a bump stop on the LR shock. The car has always sat very low in the lr and according to the chassis builder is on purpose. We played with the triple stack springs this weekend on the smasher and one of them starts bending once very much load is applied. We have ordered new springs but they have not come in yet. Chassis builder thinks this spring is bad and it doesn't have enough energy to "pop" the left rear up from the low ride height. I'd like to understand more about the stored energy in springs but honestly I dont know.

Just to confirm we weren't completely crazy, we stuck the integra with the 125 spring on the left rear again. Sat the car down and it is 1.5" higher at ride height. Driver got in and drove the car 15ft and turned left and it planted the LR and jumped up.

You have too much spring rate or too low height at ride. One is different than before.

[Jking24]

Thanks for the replies. We have changed out the 5th coil shock, took lift bar loose and checked it. We have not replaced the birdcages yet but have taken them off and checked them per the chassis builder.There has never been a bump stop on the LR shock. The car has always sat very low in the lr and according to the chassis builder is on purpose. We played with the triple stack springs this weekend on the smasher and one of them starts bending once very much load is applied. We have ordered new springs but they have not come in yet. Chassis builder thinks this spring is bad and it doesn't have enough energy to "pop" the left rear up from the low ride height. I'd like to understand more about the stored energy in springs but honestly I dont know.Just to confirm we weren't completely crazy, we stuck the integra with the 125 spring on the left rear again. Sat the car down and it is 1.5" higher at ride height. Driver got in and drove the car 15ft and turned left and it planted the LR and jumped up.The. Ride hieght loads of the stack and the 125 have to be different

[crownman25]

poor guy like a lost ball in a field full of very very tall weeds....

[dirtdobberrr]

Maybe the replacement shock does not have the same extremely high gas pressure that the first shock had in it, or maybe the shock builder screwed up and changed the rebound rate on the shock. That is about the only two things left, assuming that something is not bent/bound up from the wreck.

[missile07]

Yes with the triple stack the ride height is lower (18.25 to 18.5 center to center) (normal to us). With the 125# spring it is higher (20 center to center) but it works.

We replaced all 3 springs with new springs on the triple stack & went back to the original settings (original smash numbers on all 4 corners, original 4 link holes, everything back to standard before the wreck)....still nothing.

Last night we put the 125 spring on the Bilstein shock in question. Put it to our center to center number for extended load and it worked fine.

At our standard ride height on LR the triple stack combo with no bump & no lock out nut is roughly 300 lbs less load than the 125# spring at the same height.

We agree the ride seems low but I have spoken with another car owner with basically the same chassis and his is the same. He is not on the triple stack though.

Still searching

[Kromulous]

So what is your load at ride and extended?

No matter how many springs you have load is load, if your running 3 springs the collective rate is really low. I dont know what your running but i would venture to say in the 50lb range.

So ride is 18", and you need 600 lbs. you need to compress that 3 stacker 12" to hold up that weight, 12 !! The 125lb you need to compress it 4.8"

So take your ride number, Load, and divide it by the spring rate, and if your not compressing that spring by that amount something is way off. Same for extended.

You must of had some sort of digressive set up on there with lock nuts OR the sliders were jamming up on the threads of the shock body and adding load in that you couldn't account for. I think this maybe what happened. Because i read where you had no lock outs etc. Something goofy like that, because at the end of the day load is load and spring rate is rate. Only out lie'er is gas pressure in the shock, and binds.

[Jking24]

I think you have a miss understanding about what needs to happen with smash numbers and "ride" height. You can't run 300# less lr ride height and the car work the same as it did its just not possible. Don't be offended but I think you and your chassis manufacture are not on the same page with some things. Especially with the stack lr assembly

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yes with the triple stack the ride height is lower (18.25 to 18.5 center to center) (normal to us). With the 125# spring it is higher (20 center to center) but it works.

We replaced all 3 springs with new springs on the triple stack & went back to the original settings (original smash numbers on all 4 corners, original 4 link holes, everything back to standard before the wreck)....still nothing.

Last night we put the 125 spring on the Bilstein shock in question. Put it to our center to center number for extended load and it worked fine.

At our standard ride height on LR the triple stack combo with no bump & no lock out nut is roughly 300 lbs less load than the 125# spring at the same height.

We agree the ride seems low but I have spoken with another car owner with basically the same chassis and his is the same. He is not on the triple stack though.

Still searching

Your antisquat geometry and "push" from your spring have to be sufficient to overcome the weight and the rebound damping. I'd just run what is working and move on. Taking 300# away from your ride load is going to have a potentially huge effect.

[missile07]

Just another update...

We have ran 3 nights so far this year. 4th, 3rd, & a 2nd. Should have won all 3 nights but due to our continuing issue the car is so so lazy on restarts & will not climb the bars until the first turn.

We can run the 125 spring but it throws our decking and ride height too high for tech to be able to have our extended load at 200.

I have had several ppl message me about putting a bump stop and packers on and try that route. So I think we may try the triple stack (42 lbs) at 18.25" with 720 lbs including the bumps & packers.

[noitall93w]

Add compression to the LR

[missile07]

Compression is maxed out and gas is at 125 psi.

I also had a suggestion that not enough rod force could be the culprit with us not having a front shock. What kind of numbers would we need to look at on rod force?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yeah, compression will do nothing for you on starts.

Only load (spring and rod force). And anti squat (bar angle) can bail you out.

[Jking24]

Just another update...We have ran 3 nights so far this year. 4th, 3rd, & a 2nd. Should have won all 3 nights but due to our continuing issue the car is so so lazy on restarts & will not climb the bars until the first turn. We can run the 125 spring but it throws our decking and ride height too high for tech to be able to have our extended load at 200. I have had several ppl message me about putting a bump stop and packers on and try that route. So I think we may try the triple stack (42 lbs) at 18.25" with 720 lbs including the bumps & packers.Run a preloader with the single spring

[JustAddDirt]

This 4 page post absolutely makes me laugh. Not meaning to be rude......but

You have found the problem with the shock, because putting another one on has fixed it with all else being the same but the shock. But you continue to look for a needle and a haystack and spend money, and time and you will never find anything you think that you are looking for.
Its the dang shock. SMH. Jesus.
throw the one away that you have had repaired and run the darn Integra.
Problem solved!
If you need to lower the deck height on the LR lower it and go win!

[missile07]

Another private message asked if we had an adjustable shock mount on the frame for the LR shock and we do. He asked why couldn't we just raise the mount upwards with the 125 spring in to allow the ride height to lower but keep the same spring load at ride height?

Masters-Could pre-load or not enough pre-load in the 5th coil spring have any effect on the anti-squat?

I agree at ride height our LR bar angles are low but they are where they have always been on the frame and cage. We do have 1 more hole we can go up on the bottom bar and top bar.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Another private message asked if we had an adjustable shock mount on the frame for the LR shock and we do. He asked why couldn't we just raise the mount upwards with the 125 spring in to allow the ride height to lower but keep the same spring load at ride height?

Masters-Could pre-load or not enough pre-load in the 5th coil spring have any effect on the anti-squat?

I agree at ride height our LR bar angles are low but they are where they have always been on the frame and cage. We do have 1 more hole we can go up on the bottom bar and top bar.

5th coil location, rate, and preload has some effect, yes. It tends to have as much effect on the rr as the lr.

[Jking24]

This 4 page post absolutely makes me laugh. Not meaning to be rude......butYou have found the problem with the shock, because putting another one on has fixed it with all else being the same but the shock. But you continue to look for a needle and a haystack and spend money, and time and you will never find anything you think that you are looking for. Its the dang shock. SMH. Jesus.throw the one away that you have had repaired and run the darn Integra.Problem solved! If you need to lower the deck height on the LR lower it and go win!From the sounds of it he doesn't have a problem with either shock. He has a problem with ride hieght load. He has switched the shocks and the shock in question works fine with the standard spring

[missile07]

Yep. Shock was ruled out.

Just would like to know why what we had when we bought the car won't work now. I assure you that we would love to spend the money elsewhere and quit focusing on it because it has consumed us over the last few months. I criticized the driver for several nights for sleeping on the starts and getting behind and having to make it up. Then we were at a track where I was able to see that it wasn't lifting the left rear on starts and restarts and anytime he had to shut it down.

I've got it written down at the shop but I think the shock builder told us we needed to be at 200-240 lbs of rod force?

[JustAddDirt]

Yep. Shock was ruled out.

Just would like to know why what we had when we bought the car won't work now. I assure you that we would love to spend the money elsewhere and quit focusing on it because it has consumed us over the last few months. I criticized the driver for several nights for sleeping on the starts and getting behind and having to make it up. Then we were at a track where I was able to see that it wasn't lifting the left rear on starts and restarts and anytime he had to shut it down.

I've got it written down at the shop but I think the shock builder told us we needed to be at 200-240 lbs of rod force?

ok i stand corrected, the issue is the coil over assembly, and or the stack, at whatever load is on it at ride height. are you at or below ride height now?
Just because the chassis builder or shock builder says this or that, doesn't mean it is the golden rule for you, and what you are doing. there are too many variables to be a vanilla set up.
Got to give the car what it needs and make it work for your driver. if that means tweaking on what someone's directions to make it better, i would certainly try something else.
If it works with a single rate lr spring and the deck height is too high, lower the deck, or try putting a 100# spring in it and preload it to the load numbers

Its like you are trying the same thing that doesn't work, and wanting a different result because it used to work. but now it doesn't.

maybe the RF tire is larger than before, and that is making the LR set lower due to the increased size. jacking more weight in the LR and that extra 1º is messing up the whole deal.
maybe the driver put on 5 pounds. or a new helmet blower, or something, and that is lowering the LR ride height just 1º on bar angle which effects the ability of the car to get up on its own.
could be tight heims on the lr 4 link bars, or the RF upper and lower are a bit tight. all that will have the same effect.
are your bar angles exactly the same now as they were before getting hit, or whatever all this started being an issue? ( I don't mean same bar location i means the exact same angle.)
so many too many variables I can set and list them for an hour.
fact of matter is the car is sitting too low at static height to do what it should, so change the height and go win.
pretty simple really. We don't have to have an explanation for everything, just have to go and make what you have now work.
or maybe I was taught or raised differently I dunno?

[ZERO25]

Heres a thought. Put your old setup on the car inc tire sizes and put the car on scales. Then put your new setup and do the same. See if anythings different!