E85 Limited Late Switch

[Higgy9991]

Running a steel block 358 limited late motor. Motor dyno'd best on Alcohol (about 48 hp better ) , but due to not wanting to purchase a new fuel cell we have always run it on 110-115 octane. Cell manufacture says it is safe to run e85 out of the cell. So my question is, IS there anymore power to be had by switching to a e85 carb setup or any other advantageous reasoning?

[fastford]

run a bit cooler and cost of e85 compared to racing gas is my main reason , also some power gain ...

[LRtireCHANGER]

All alcoohol fuels cause maintenance headaches. e85 or straight methaol should not be left in the carb bowls for more than a few hours, because alcohols release free oxygen molecules, and the oxygen molecules combine with the zinc in the carb bowls to form...........zinc oxide. Alcohols hardens fuel line, it also will eat some fuel cell foams. It does make more power, it really boil down to a decisions of do you want to make more power and replace fuel system component more often, or do you want to spend more on race fuel while also having significantly less maintenance issues. Oh, alcohols will also draw moisture out of the surrounding air, so the longer this fuel sits, the more likely you are to develop water contamination issues.

[fastford]

never had any of those problems with E85 , maybe I was just lucky , and there is a huge difference between methanol and E85 , especially in consumption .....

[Lizardracing]

Agreed, there a whole bunch of BS floating around the internet on E85. I suspect it begun with Cronies at VP.
I treat E85 like pump gas, except the lines and fittings are specd for M1 for a large safety margin so basically AN -10 and -8 is plenty.
Find a good builder of E85, and follow them. The only two that I trust are Mark Sullens and HP Innovations. Im sure there are others. Listen to Mark, and not the BS, you'll be making power on the cheap.

[sirleafalot]

agree with the Lizard been running e85 for years no issues, get the cheap fuel tester so you can test the content from the pump, but rarely have I seen it off the mark typically right. I get fuel from a Meier station and no issues. Mark Sullens is smart dude. I have also have a carb from ATM Innovations, flawless right out of box. get good carb and roll. I drain the bowls if it will more than two weeks. otherwise no concerns, its plug and play.

[Jking24]

Those of you guys running e85 on steel blocks with dry-sump are you guys running oil coolers? With methanol we never have. I switched to e85 last year only ran around 4-5 nights. Unfortunately I had two engine failures unrelated to the fuel. First one I can only presume was built on a Friday because it trashed two rod bearings in less than 24 laps with 65+psi of oil pressure. All other bearings looked new. And the plugs and pistons looked perfect. Second one witch was a designated spare was just (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) luck broke a rod on the second lap of a feature.

[Lizardracing]

A lot of things engine internal, effect oil temps. I DO NOT run a cooler on a wet sump, although that wasn't the question...Just thought I'd try to help anyway.
Imma say that E isn't going to lower the oil temps enough by itself so if you needed a cooler on gas before, your very likely to need a cooler on E.
You still will want oil temps in the 210-220ish range and water in the 200ish range. E works way better with at least a 170 water temp.

Something to think about, on E, a rich carb and a cold plug can beat up the bearings.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

We run everything on e85 now. I'd never go back.

[Higgy9991]

How much Compression are yall getting away with on E85, series allows Dome pistons now and we are due foe a rebuild about half way through this year.

[Lizardracing]

I know guys in the 16:1 static range.
I also know guys in the 12:1 and 30psi of boost range.
It's mostly a non issue.

[Higgy9991]

last question for me, Who or where would you guys recommend for a new e85 carb or to convert one of my billet gas carbs? Little background on my self, aside from a guided jet change or adjusting idle/ floats; i am no carb guy.

[Jking24]

last question for me, Who or where would you guys recommend for a new e85 carb or to convert one of my billet gas carbs? Little background on my self, aside from a guided jet change or adjusting idle/ floats; i am no carb guy.I bought a new one from pro systems really good pricing and super good customer service

[Lizardracing]

Only two people I trust are Mark http://www.marksullense85carburetors.com

Erik at Horsepower Innovations https://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/

Both don't do anything BUT E85.....E85 isn't gas, shouldn't be tuned like like gas.
Those who sell the blocks for you to do yourself are missing some things that can really help get the most out of E85. They work okay, it'll start and run and make power and all that but there lots of power left on the table then when you go the WHOLE way. Pick one, listen to them and them only. They both have their own ways and both work extremely well but mixing and matching might give you unexpected results. That and when you call for advice, they know what you have by their notes instead of taking guesses on the what the "other guy did".

[Jking24]

Almost bought a carb from sullen then I stumbled across a internet rant of his in which he was blasting a guy for checking his float levels and questioning why the sight hole screws were in backwards. You say he has "his own way of doing things" I say he's self taught and doesn't actually understand what's going on inside their completely aswell as very arrogant. Checking float levels is a part of basic maintenence. If your carburetor needs to run some top secret float level that's different from the dozens of reputable builders out their Something is wrong. And blasting a customer because they touched their carburetor is just poor business practice. His stuff may run good but it's not for me

[Lizardracing]

I wouldn't argue that. He's got a lot..lot of self confidence. lol
He isn't self taught, he is a fluid dynamics engineer by trade. His practice is a little big to be a self taught hack.

He is quite straight to the point and sometimes crass. When he sends something out, and you have a problem or want to tweak a bit, it's not a big deal to him. However, lots of times a guy questions something and listens to all his gas carb buddies and ends up in the weeds and begins running his mouth about junk this or that. That sorta thing will get him fired up.
In that one case, he turned the screws around so you won't go messing with it. E sometimes like the floats a tad higher. All the internet BS says they SHOULD be in the middle. Middle is STARTING point, NOT the absolute and that for a gas carb. Not an E carb. They are all tested at his shop before it leaves on the brown truck using on the same E85 the customer is using, that all he does and has ever done. It was right where Mark wanted it, where it worked the best. Then Joe Blow read the internet and thought he was smarter, goes to messin with it and throws a fit because it won't work right.
There are probably better ways to handle such things.
Live by social media, die by social media I guess.

Mark has his ways, believes in them and they do work very well. Also sometimes a bit unorthodox.
Mark would rather get the call you aren't happy with something so HE CAN FIX it his way rather than some other carb guy telling his customers he's an idiot. You'll never hear about the good he does over the internet. You never hear about the vast amounts of free advice and knowledge and hours on the phone after work he gives out on the daily to guys who have NEVER spent a dime with him nor ever will. You never hear about the all the free work he gives out at the track helping people go faster, You never hear about the free parts he send out either when people need things. You never hear about all the good he does.
All this sounds like I'm defending him. I sorta am, I know him personally but have no alliance with him either.
He is good guy, just has a short tolerance for BS but at the same time, he ain't for everyone.
It doesn't matter if your a engine guy, transmission guy, chassis guy, construction guy, lawyer, doctor or anything else, the best thing to do is find the guy you can get along with and you can trust, and stick with em.

Eric is a super nice guy, sense of humor, really cares about what he's doing, is fair priced, honest, fast at what he does and all around very knowledgeable all thing ethanol with a background is CT stuff.

Either will help you win.

[Jking24]

I wouldn't argue that. He's got a lot..lot of self confidence. lolHe isn't self taught, he is a fluid dynamics engineer by trade. His practice is a little big to be a self taught hack. He is quite straight to the point and sometimes crass. When he sends something out, and you have a problem or want to tweak a bit, it's not a big deal to him. However, lots of times a guy questions something and listens to all his gas carb buddies and ends up in the weeds and begins running his mouth about junk this or that. That sorta thing will get him fired up. In that one case, he turned the screws around so you won't go messing with it. E sometimes like the floats a tad higher. All the internet BS says they SHOULD be in the middle. Middle is STARTING point, NOT the absolute and that for a gas carb. Not an E carb. They are all tested at his shop before it leaves on the brown truck using on the same E85 the customer is using, that all he does and has ever done. It was right where Mark wanted it, where it worked the best. Then Joe Blow read the internet and thought he was smarter, goes to messin with it and throws a fit because it won't work right. There are probably better ways to handle such things. Live by social media, die by social media I guess. Mark has his ways, believes in them and they do work very well. Also sometimes a bit unorthodox.Mark would rather get the call you aren't happy with something so HE CAN FIX it his way rather than some other carb guy telling his customers he's an idiot. You'll never hear about the good he does over the internet. You never hear about the vast amounts of free advice and knowledge and hours on the phone after work he gives out on the daily to guys who have NEVER spent a dime with him nor ever will. You never hear about the all the free work he gives out at the track helping people go faster, You never hear about the free parts he send out either when people need things. You never hear about all the good he does. All this sounds like I'm defending him. I sorta am, I know him personally but have no alliance with him either. He is good guy, just has a short tolerance for BS but at the same time, he ain't for everyone. It doesn't matter if your a engine guy, transmission guy, chassis guy, construction guy, lawyer, doctor or anything else, the best thing to do is find the guy you can get along with and you can trust, and stick with em. Eric is a super nice guy, sense of humor, really cares about what he's doing, is fair priced, honest, fast at what he does and all around very knowledgeable all thing ethanol with a background is CT stuff. Either will help you win.While all that may be true checking float levels is basic maintenence in a dirt racing carburetor. If your gonna run a special float level that hinder the float sight screws useless you should install bowls with sight glasses. Anyone that doesn't expect you to touch or check your float levels shouldn't be selling carbs to dirt guys. I'm not discrediting any of the guys accomplishments.

[Lizardracing]

Yeah I'm with ya 100 percent. He doesn't do this with all of em, as far as I know a one time deal because one guy wouldn't listen. I haven't seen them all by any means. You can always call and ask questions, get the straight scoop on the deal, 6pm-9pm daily. He's a straight shooter kinda guy and not afraid of his own brand.

We've all been there and it's a tough situation to be in when you tell a customer something specific, like "level at the top of the sight glass" and every time is comes back because it's under performing, the levels are at the bottom because that's what the internet has said for about 60 years....and is wrong mind you.
At some point its better to tell a guy you can't help them, but they already spent their money paying the internet bill and the bash you know matter what. The internet is great for sharing information quickly, it's just as bad for sharing misinformation just as quickly. Neither EVER go away.

[dirtslinger71]

So are you guys running pump e85 or race e85 out of the drum? Im converting and I'm wondering if I have to buy it by the drum? Obviously I would test the pump stuff. What's the lowest ethenol % rating you can safely run?

[Higgy9991]

My plan is to run pump E85 and get a 5 gal pail of E98 and mix until it proofs at E85 so i can balance my own consistency.

[fastford]

some times you have to add strait gas to " proof" it down , I have bought e85 strait out of the pump that tested close to e87 , no big deal though .....

[Lizardracing]

So are you guys running pump e85 or race e85 out of the drum? Im converting and I'm wondering if I have to buy it by the drum? Obviously I would test the pump stuff. What's the lowest ethenol % rating you can safely run?

You have two choices. Pump or aftermarket by the barrel. Three actually, some areas have a VP gas station that sells per gallon. Look on their web site for locations. You can buy E98 and 87 and mix your own. I know guys doing that. I don't bother with the hassle.
VP E85 is complete crap according to my builder. It's always down on power. VP only makes it because the market is demanding it. Ignite brand and pump gas works the best on his dyno and his carbs. There isn't a lot of difference on the dyno between 70-90 percent so it's not an issue really. It's about the same difference between the early spring when its 40 degrees and mid summer when it's 110' in the shade. I don't know anyone changing carb jets for either of those scenarios and if you are, you're likely not on here asking questions. It's not enough that shows up on CT car anyway, Bracket racing where your chasing .001 ET's all day and night yes, slightly matters,it's even less on NOS or boosted applications. Mathematically it's 2-4 jet sizes. I don't worry about it and have no problems at 14:1cr 421. I said earlier look out for all the ethanol BS on the internet. Find a carb guy you like and stick with him. Do it his way. Lots of ways to make it work.

[dirtslinger71]

You have two choices. Pump or aftermarket by the barrel. Three actually, some areas have a VP gas station that sells per gallon. Look on their web site for locations. You can buy E98 and 87 and mix your own. I know guys doing that. I don't bother with the hassle.
VP E85 is complete crap according to my builder. It's always down on power. VP only makes it because the market is demanding it. Ignite brand and pump gas works the best on his dyno and his carbs. There isn't a lot of difference on the dyno between 70-90 percent so it's not an issue really. It's about the same difference between the early spring when its 40 degrees and mid summer when it's 110' in the shade. I don't know anyone changing carb jets for either of those scenarios and if you are, you're likely not on here asking questions. It's not enough that shows up on CT car anyway, Bracket racing where your chasing .001 ET's all day and night yes, slightly matters,it's even less on NOS or boosted applications. Mathematically it's 2-4 jet sizes. I don't worry about it and have no problems at 14:1cr 421. I said earlier look out for all the ethanol BS on the internet. Find a carb guy you like and stick with him. Do it his way. Lots of ways to make it work.

This is some awesome info to consider. How about any additives? I see a few companies making additives that have anti corrosion and lubricant and prevents water accumulation... Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Could it hurt power?

[Lizardracing]

My builder doesn't care for them.
Some of his customers say they like it.
Jury is out it seems.
I personally don't, never had a need for it.
E isn't corrosive, it's actually a cleaner. When it gets water in it, or when the gas part of it deteriorates is when you get problems. If you have problems, fix the storage issue and those problems go away.
I keep mine is sealed containers for up to a year, no problems. I keep the fuel cell and carb full if not racing for a month or more. Otherwise I don't do anything. Pull it into the shop, turn it off. walk away.
There is one thing, if you fire the car to show off or move it around or something like that it's best to get up to temp.
What happens, is the sudden change on the E/G blend sand it might turn into a real thin this jell like texture. I don't understand it personally, how it happens exactly, I just follow advice to always get it to temp.

[dirtslinger71]

Thanks for all this awesome info!