The droop rule disaster

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The droop rule has been doing a great job of taking nice runs away from small time racers.

Casey Shuman is on Twitter talking about how "rich teams" were getting their spoiler higher on the track, so that made this necessary. I hate to tell him, but thinking and a grasp of geometry costs nothing. He just made the process more complicated, and thus more expensive. Maybe ask, "why does the quest for more hike exist"? It's downforce. Just take that away in a straightforward path. Problem solved.

When they say "big money", they really meaning thinking. They don't want thinking. They want spec cars. They want every new prospective owner to think he can buy a car as good as the Rumley 6. Racing does not work like that. It rewards hard work and ingenuity.

[fastford]

it use to reward hard work and ingenuity , but the idea they want spec cars is correct , they want those new and existing owners to feel they can buy a car that is totally equal to all other cars out there , then get a hot shoe like larson , that probably knows less about actual set up than most out there , to be able to sit in it and win .....jmo

[Just The Tip]

Leave it to the sanctions to eff up a simple fix. Body rules should be easy enough to check that you shouldnt need a jack to check it.

My ideal fix would be:
-Right front wheel must be in line with right rear
-Nose piece must measure equal distance to ground on both furthest ends, lets say 5 inches
-Nose piece must not have a protruding lip any further than .5 inches
-Deck must measure level front to back, left to right
-Decking must be level with the top of the door panels

What do you think MasterSbult_Racer, some simple body rule adjustments can fix a whole host of the current issues. Just unhook the aero downforce and that would be a huge step in the right direction.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Leave it to the sanctions to eff up a simple fix. Body rules should be easy enough to check that you shouldnt need a jack to check it.

My ideal fix would be:
-Right front wheel must be in line with right rear
-Nose piece must measure equal distance to ground on both furthest ends, lets say 5 inches
-Nose piece must not have a protruding lip any further than .5 inches
-Deck must measure level front to back, left to right
-Decking must be level with the top of the door panels

What do you think MasterSbult_Racer, some simple body rule adjustments can fix a whole host of the current issues. Just unhook the aero downforce and that would be a huge step in the right direction.

I don't like nose height measurements, because I don't want noses ripped off, but I mostly agree with you.

[Rajflyboy]

Bring back the wedge bodies 😜😁

[0_VodooChild_0]

This crap of trying to get the left rear corner 8 feet in the air is ruining the sport. Freaking stupid the way they look now.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

This crap of trying to get the left rear corner 8 feet in the air is ruining the sport. Freaking stupid the way they look now.

The only real problem is the downforce and the hole they punch in the air that cripples the car behind them. If it's beneficial to do it, it won't stop. If it is no longer beneficial, it won't be done.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Bring back the wedge bodies 

They already did.

[dirtSLMracing]

Leave it to the sanctions to eff up a simple fix. Body rules should be easy enough to check that you shouldnt need a jack to check it.

My ideal fix would be:
-Right front wheel must be in line with right rear
-Nose piece must measure equal distance to ground on both furthest ends, lets say 5 inches
-Nose piece must not have a protruding lip any further than .5 inches
-Deck must measure level front to back, left to right
-Decking must be level with the top of the door panels

What do you think MasterSbult_Racer, some simple body rule adjustments can fix a whole host of the current issues. Just unhook the aero downforce and that would be a huge step in the right direction.

I have asked before why the right front stuck out so far but no one responded. I didnt know if it was to clear suspension or just to help handling.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Take the elephant ears off and make the interior panels level 3" below the top of the air cleaners back to a 6 " spoiler. The right side of these cars are getting way out of hand.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have asked before why the right front stuck out so far but no one responded. I didnt know if it was to clear suspension or just to help handling.

It helps with handling. The rr picks up more of the lateral weight transfer when it's closer to the mass of the car, as opposed to the rf.

[dirtSLMracing]

It helps with handling. The rr picks up more of the lateral weight transfer when it's closer to the mass of the car, as opposed to the rf.

10-4... seems if they brought the right front in it would make the cars harder to drive and the racing better.

[Rajflyboy]

They already did.Don’t tell anybody 😜

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

10-4... seems if they brought the right front in it would make the cars harder to drive and the racing better.

It might, but it's another somewhat tricky measurement to enforce. I want the days back where the suspension wasn't important as long as the wheels were in the right place (track width, wheel base, etc.)

All the downforce makes them easy to drive. I'd be okay with no spoiler at all. You'd be amazed at what that would do.

[Rajflyboy]

It might, but it's another somewhat tricky measurement to enforce. I want the days back where the suspension wasn't important as long as the wheels were in the right place (track width, wheel base, etc.)All the downforce makes them easy to drive. I'd be okay with no spoiler at all. You'd be amazed at what that would do.No spoiler would be awesome

[Josh Bayko]

Just making the bodies straight, flat and symmetrical and actually enforcing it would do more than these droop rules.

[dirtSLMracing]

No spoiler would be awesome

Appearance of the car or handling of the car?

[billetbirdcage]

I have asked before why the right front stuck out so far but no one responded. I didnt know if it was to clear suspension or just to help handling.

The front or rear wheel track widths haven't really changed (they are slightly wider then 20 years ago but an inch or so), it's the right front corner of the body is pulled left to create more angle in the right side body to create a side board to lean on (aero side force). Todays cars can easily create over 700# of side force thru aero.

Pick a car from say 95ish and the wheel tracks are basically the same it's just the way the body is made so the RF looks like it sticks out, when all 4 wheels are basically in the same relationship to each other and the RF isn't actually any more outside the RR then the 95 car was.

Basically take the T bar that holds the deck at the back of the hood and shift that left 6" and then move the very rear T bar at the back of the car and shift that right a bunch and a 95 car would look basically the same. The actual nose pieces of the car is still in the same place or shifted right a fair amount also.

[Rajflyboy]

Appearance of the car or handling of the car?Making it even harder to drive but speeds would be much lower

[CCHIEF]

Rules are what they are.Make the best of them you can.I’m just glad they have become unified!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Unified? If you think everyone is going to check all of this stuff, I have a bridge to sell you. All this nonsense is what ended unification. People act like different rules was the norm. We've been on same rules since UMP and UDTRA bodies became the same over 20 years ago, until the 2016 season.

[riddle28]

shouldve been boycotted when cook and tilley came up with it, been useless since the inception

[CCHIEF]

They checked pretty well at the Lucas races.…Ya can’t fight city hall I’m not one to complain about rules, poor track conditions, etc….everyone’s racing under the same conditions. I guess I am becoming more passive as I get older and concentrate my thoughts on what I can control.😎

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

CCHIEF, Lucas and Woo are but a thin slice of DLM racing. I'm talking about everyone else who Woo/Lucas thinks has to follow along. They are destroying what a dirt late model is and forcing costs on everyone else. I don't cry about costs everyone else chooses to incur. I do get upset when my stuff I've used for years or even decades continues to be replaced by a pen. I don't want to fight city hall from another state and my own.

[Drop Shock]

It’s a flawed rule. When taking turns out of your rf spring makes you fail the rule then it’s time for a change. That is easiest and most cheap way there is to make a car turn better

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Drop Shock,

That's just one of a huge list of things that can result in failure. Hollidge and Overton found a couple others. Since we don't know who won the race when the checker flies, they should at least do this in front of the stands with a red and a green light. Give some entertainment value to the pain.

[Barbecueboy]

Drop Shock,

That's just one of a huge list of things that can result in failure. Hollidge and Overton found a couple others. Since we don't know who won the race when the checker flies, they should at least do this in front of the stands with a red and a green light. Give some entertainment value to the pain.
They are just adding more suspense to the tire rule exciting finishes we watch…..you know, find out who really won next week sometime?

Benchmark and all, lol…..droop and all, lol…….xyz and all, lol.

[bleedblue55]

Move on, you all sound like Kevin Rumley whining and crying. Rules are rules, just ask Kyle Strickler at the scales last night.

[Raceready]

Move on, you all sound like Kevin Rumley whining and crying. Rules are rules, just ask Kyle Strickler at the scales last night.Thats the bottom line !!

[Barbecueboy]

Like the rule of driving 55 mph on most 4 lane roads…..the rule about being 21 to have a beer but can be 18 to die for your country? Both of them started out with good intentions, but both are useless and dumb.
Just like the tire rules and this droop nonsense.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Move on, you all sound like Kevin Rumley whining and crying. Rules are rules, just ask Kyle Strickler at the scales last night.

Weight is a necessary, and historical rule.

Kevin is one of the few sane people left in this sport. He actually still understands historically, what our race cars were, from a simple set of rules standpoint and the philosophy of what participating in the class involved.

We've begun accelerating down a slope where more and more rules keep being invented because the previous one failed to have the intended result. Let alone the fact that the original one would never have been written 20 years ago, because doing something different was never a problem. There is nothing wrong with having rules. When the rulebook balloons to twice it's size in a few years, this isn't dirt late model racing anymore.

[Buford.Justice]

How about just ending the droop rule????

Masters, what is your opinion?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

How about just ending the droop rule????

Masters, what is your opinion?

I support that 100%. They started with limiting shock length. Then they went to jacking up the lr. Now they are lifting both rear tires. The more they think they limit things, the more you have to do to stay on par with the smart guys that are getting all they can within the new rule set. It's exhausting and expensive for people trying to keep using the same car year after year. Sure, I might buy or build some little things to try and gain speed each year. But it leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you are a poor team and you suddenly have to buy a bunch of new things to maintain your place on the performance scale, due to parts now flat being illegal or parts suddenly being woefully obsolete.

[Driver50x]

How about eliminate the droop rule, and cut the spoiler down to about half of its current height, and maybe narrow it a little. Wouldn’t that minimize the reason for hiking the rear end up in the air?

[Rajflyboy]

The more droop the better 👍

[billetbirdcage]

I'm not going to get into specifics here or divulge teams secrets but:

Under last years rules, you could easily get 2+ more inches of hike on the track if you knew how to beat the rule verses how they measured it in the pits.

To be able to do what the professional teams (high dollar teams, if you will) are doing, he has to buy several items and do a but of work to the car. Now is this super expensive, well that depends on your yearly budget and what you call expensive. I would guess to say for most people even doing the work themselves and making what they can and only buying what 99% of people could not make by themselves is probably in the 1500 to 3K range. For the professional teams this likely isn't close to 1/2 a % of their budget but an "Average Joe Team" that may be 10/20% or more if your talking small local crate teams.

Now with the rule change this year, now you have to redo a lot of that stuff again. TEAMS WILL FIND A WAY TO MAXIMIZE WHAT EVER RULE THEY CHANGE OR ADD.

I'm all for unified rules but Masters has some valid complaints. What happened to the body skew rule? Some guys that ran several speedweeks races said they didn't check Jack on the bodies? Maybe those days they didn't check and did other times, but who know? I haven't found anyone to tell me they checked it, but then again I didn't try real hard to find out by calling everyone I knew.

Change stagger, opps messed up droop measurement: DQ
Change RR shock, opps may have messed up droop measurement: DQ
Change RF spring or ride hieght, opps may have messed up droop measurement: DQ
Change LR 4 link bars or positions and topped out a shock, Opps your chain isn't tight now at full droop: DQ

You get my point!

[dirtcrazy4u]

So we take all these 4 bar set ups and let everyone go back to leaf springs. Boy the headaches that would be eliminated.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So we take all these 4 bar set ups and let everyone go back to leaf springs. Boy the headaches that would be eliminated.

Not with the new class of rules makers. We'd have fast boys half leafs for hike. Then they'd outlaw that. Then we'd have asymmetrical arched leafs, with the axle placed for max hike. They would outlaw that. Then we'd have complex rear leaf hangers to gain hike. They would make another rule. Then we'd have leaf mounts floated on the axle, they would need a new rule. We'd have leaf that pivot at the axle for better roll steer, they outlaw that. It would still never end.

[Rajflyboy]

Now I’d think the front end has to be what I call “Woppy Jaw” due to the body roll/centrifugal force in the corners. Am I correct in this thinking ?

[BVogtjr30]

How about taking a 2” hole saw to the noses of these cars or going back to the “older style” fronts that weren’t so aero dependent? And raising them back up from where they are now. Use to see a lot more passing compared to nowadays and any car that folds the nose down they are done for the night, also seems to make passing a lot more difficult when you are behind a car. Half the time the leader can’t get around a lapped car because of aerodynamics, there was a reason they went away from the wedge bodies and back to more normal looking cars. Maybe that’s what is needed again. Getting closer and closer to resembling nascar racing with downforce issues and looking more like an airplane instead of a race car.

[Rajflyboy]

Whatever it is I’d say things are really dam good right now in dirt late model. I would not change much.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

How about taking a 2” hole saw to the noses of these cars or going back to the “older style” fronts that weren’t so aero dependent? And raising them back up from where they are now. Use to see a lot more passing compared to nowadays and any car that folds the nose down they are done for the night, also seems to make passing a lot more difficult when you are behind a car. Half the time the leader can’t get around a lapped car because of aerodynamics, there was a reason they went away from the wedge bodies and back to more normal looking cars. Maybe that’s what is needed again. Getting closer and closer to resembling nascar racing with downforce issues and looking more like an airplane instead of a race car.

You hit one of the huge problems. When we went to manufactured noses, they were much taller and no splitter. The sanction bodies just kept approving more and more aerodynamic noses and roofs with a rubber stamp. The negligence in safe guarding those items has made the cars race horribly.

[Drop Shock]

Mark Whitner failed the droop rule twice in one night. One of his crew members posted that once the car was in the air and rear end was off the ground picking up on the front end changed the measurement 1 inch to the good. Having a rule that is dependent on wheel loads when the primary tool to adjust a racecar throughout the night is manipulating wheel loads seems like a huge problem to me. How can the officials be this stubborn or stupid or both?

[dirtcrazy4u]

Turning back the clock. Remember when steve francis retired and became a part of lucas ? Everyone said change was coming, he'll get things back to were they belong. I guess collecting a pay check must not be so bad after all.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Mark Whitner failed the droop rule twice in one night. One of his crew members posted that once the car was in the air and rear end was off the ground picking up on the front end changed the measurement 1 inch to the good. Having a rule that is dependent on wheel loads when the primary tool to adjust a racecar throughout the night is manipulating wheel loads seems like a huge problem to me. How can the officials be this stubborn or stupid or both?

When you make rules stating the "right size bolt has to go in the right size hole", as if uncontrollable motion is a key to speed, you don't have a good grasp on what is happening. You are just throwing excrement against the wall, hoping something sticks, apparently trying to appease someone. That was 2016. It continues.

[Ltemodel]

The droop rule has been doing a great job of taking nice runs away from small time racers.

Casey Shuman is on Twitter talking about how "rich teams" were getting their spoiler higher on the track, so that made this necessary. I hate to tell him, but thinking and a grasp of geometry costs nothing. He just made the process more complicated, and thus more expensive. Maybe ask, "why does the quest for more hike exist"? It's downforce. Just take that away in a straightforward path. Problem solved.

When they say "big money", they really meaning thinking. They don't want thinking. They want spec cars. They want every new prospective owner to think he can buy a car as good as the Rumley 6. Racing does not work like that. It rewards hard work and ingenuity.

Amen. This is the exact thing I've been saying for a while. I got into late models from sprint car racing because it was, at the time, a place of wide open ideas. Now its so far clamped down, ideas are quickly squashed by more suspension rules.

[Ltemodel]

You hit one of the huge problems. When we went to manufactured noses, they were much taller and no splitter. The sanction bodies just kept approving more and more aerodynamic noses and roofs with a rubber stamp. The negligence in safe guarding those items has made the cars race horribly.

When Bob Memmer (please excuse the spelling if it is wrong) started UMP he tried hard to get rid of the slab downforce noses of the eighties and early nineties. Now the UMP concept is gone when they became affiliated with WoO. People used to complain at Eldora tech sessions, but looking back at it, it probably was pretty good for the sport.

[ALLDIRT]

How about just ending the droop rule????

Masters, what is your opinion?

I absolutely saw , and I won't say who went through or who let it .
But going across the scales at East Bay , a Lucas regular failed the drop
and was passed by . I saw more , but if your a regular , you can be passed by .
FACT .

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I absolutely saw , and I won't say who went through or who let it .
But going across the scales at East Bay , a Lucas regular failed the drop
and was passed by . I saw more , but if your a regular , you can be passed by .
FACT .

I've seen enough big guys ride bumpers all the way to deck height to believe you. I've seen guys follow a car past deck height check, prior to qualifying, and put an electric impact on the t bar jack bolt to believe you.

Now, regulars will probably lift on the front bumper to pass droop.

[Jking24]

I lost all respect for Steve Francis and any thing lucas says about two years ago. when I seen Steve walk up to nearly every series regular with his stick to check decks and wouldn't you know it every one of them was perfect. Only problem is I guess I was the only one looking at the other end of the stick that was over 3" off the ground most of the time. Meanwhile we almost weren't allowed to go out for the heat because we were less than a 1/4" high

[Buford.Justice]

I absolutely saw , and I won't say who went through or who let it .
But going across the scales at East Bay , a Lucas regular failed the drop
and was passed by . I saw more , but if your a regular , you can be passed by .
FACT .

I do believe that. The good ole boys are in the click!!

[Raceready]

I do believe that. The good ole boys are in the click!!I think you could be on to something there !

[hardracer32]

Well I agree with a lot of the body rule suggestions. But I also believe that having the spoilers so high in the air needs to change also. I can also see some of the issues that it causes when it comes to adjusting the cars and still being able to pass tech. So my question is this- Is there a smart way to limit the "droop" or the ability of teams to get the car to pick up so high? Could we change something else and still achieve the same goal? I do, however, disagree with you on how much it costs MasterSbilt_Racer, to have these rules. It's always going to cost however much any given team has to spend. If they spent $50k on working around the droop rule, it's not like they're not still spending that money continuously on testing after that. So changing the rule so that they just change the focus of the testing and spending doesn't really cost them more money. They're always going to be trying to come up with ways to beat the system. That is my humble and respectful opinion. You are obviously a smart guy who is very knowlegable about this stuff, I always enjoy your input and having these conversations with you.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Well I agree with a lot of the body rule suggestions. But I also believe that having the spoilers so high in the air needs to change also. I can also see some of the issues that it causes when it comes to adjusting the cars and still being able to pass tech. So my question is this- Is there a smart way to limit the "droop" or the ability of teams to get the car to pick up so high? Could we change something else and still achieve the same goal? I do, however, disagree with you on how much it costs MasterSbilt_Racer, to have these rules. It's always going to cost however much any given team has to spend. If they spent $50k on working around the droop rule, it's not like they're not still spending that money continuously on testing after that. So changing the rule so that they just change the focus of the testing and spending doesn't really cost them more money. They're always going to be trying to come up with ways to beat the system. That is my humble and respectful opinion. You are obviously a smart guy who is very knowlegable about this stuff, I always enjoy your input and having these conversations with you.

Your argument about cost MAY apply to the mega teams with 600k budgets, but they are the minority in dirt late model racing. I'm sick of everyone only considering 12 teams about rules that affect a thousand people. I promise you it brings the guys Im involved with cost and aggravation. We stopped entering Lucas shows in 2017. I'm not saying they care, but it's not worth jumping thru their new hoops all the time.

It's their pooch, I wouldn't care how they screwed it if they applied every new ticky tac rule to themselves and left local racers alone. Quit pressuring local tracks and regional series to do the same thing they do. When parts I've used for 30 years continually become illegal, it's beyond maddening.

As I've already said, there isn't a smart way to have a droop rule. It makes way more sense to erase the benefits of getting dynamic deck height.

[Raceready]

Your argument about cost MAY apply to the mega teams with 600k budgets, but they are the minority in dirt late model racing. I'm sick of everyone only considering 12 teams about rules that affect a thousand people. I promise you it brings the guys Im involved with cost and aggravation. We stopped entering Lucas shows in 2017. I'm not saying they care, but it's not worth jumping thru their new hoops all the time.It's their pooch, I wouldn't care how they screwed it if they applied every new ticky tac rule to themselves and left local racers alone. Quit pressuring local tracks and regional series to do the same thing they do. When parts I've used for 30 years continually become illegal, it's beyond maddening.As I've already said, there isn't a smart way to have a droop rule. It makes way more sense to erase the benefits of getting dynamic deck height.It all sounds like a CATCH 22...