Rumley Controversy

[keeks]

Anyone have any thoughts on the recent controversy regarding Larson's car from the last race?

Who is this Chaz guy on youtube? Subtly accusing Larson/Rumley of cheating, and what are your
fellas thoughts on the video?

https://youtu.be/0DVveId0bcw

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Anyone have any thoughts on the recent controversy regarding Larson's car from the last race?

Who is this Chaz guy on youtube? Subtly accusing Larson/Rumley of cheating, and what are your
fellas thoughts on the video?

https://youtu.be/0DVveId0bcw

It's a shock that is position dependent. There is a point in the travel where oil bypassing around the piston. It's a bandaid to help with passing rules measurements of ride height or droop, depending on how it's used. These things have been around at least a decade in the sport. Should they be legal based on how the sport conducts business today? Probably not. But they are, and not that big of a deal, imo. I've never felt like I had to have one.

[Lizardracing]

We live in a world of hatred and jealousy toward success. Marveling in someone else s talent and opportunities indicates a weakness in ourselves.
Come to think of it, it's been human nature for several thousand years.
Chaz, just another bloviating talking head reaching out the others who hate success.

[Kromulous]

People dont want good racing, they want their guy to win.

Larson is not some peoples guy LOL.

[over4T]

The Chaz is an idiot never-was and never-will-be personality. Most everyone who has been around the guy for even a few minutes comes away thinking WTF was that.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

We live in a world of hatred and jealousy toward success. Marveling in someone else s talent and opportunities indicates a weakness in ourselves.
Come to think of it, it's been human nature for several thousand years.
Chaz, just another bloviating talking head reaching out the others who hate success.

You've hit the nail on the head as to why the sport is so complicated now and has so many rules. If a guy with deep pockets has no way to buy something, the sanctions now call it illegal. It doesn't matter if it conforms to the rules or not. It doesn't matter if it's actually an advantage or not. If someone perceives they are at a disadvantage over a part they can't source, the crying commences.

They care about optics, not reality.

[fastford]

you are absolutely correct masters , and I dont understand it , there is nothing out there that cant be reproduced , which kind of gives some one that can actually build something a bit of an advantage , but the rule makers are gone cater to the money , no changing that im afraid .....

[Jim11h]

Regarding Rumsey, check out YouTube video of davenport interview on stacking pennies podcast by Cory lajoie. He talks a little about previous invention and air

[grt74]

It's a shock that is position dependent. There is a point in the travel where oil bypassing around the piston. It's a bandaid to help with passing rules measurements of ride height or droop, depending on how it's used. These things have been around at least a decade in the sport. Should they be legal based on how the sport conducts business today? Probably not. But they are, and not that big of a deal, imo. I've never felt like I had to have one.

I've been around them, at times they are a disadvantage

[JustAddDirt]

Sanctioning bodies cater to the money, but when the money runs out, we are left with less and less car counts. We have been headed down that path more and more each year.
Bilstein has an offroad shock division, and it was only a matter of time before that technology migrated to dirt racing. I spoke with Fox Shocks about it when I was sponsored by them around 2015-2016 about position sensitive RF and LR shock. He said the technology is there, just have to downsize it to a smaller body and shaft size shock to work in the roundy round world.

[Jim11h]

What is and good is a position shock?

[billetbirdcage]

What is and good is a position shock?

An over simplified explanation is this:

A shock that has different valving depending on where the shaft is on it's travel. Say you have a 7" stroke shock, so lets say at 0" it's completely compressed and 7" is with the shaft fully extended out of the body.

So an example of what appeared to be on Rumley's car would be this: I'm talking made up numbers and am using rebound in pounds at say 1" per second

0" = 1000# rebound
1" = 1000# rebound
2" = 1000# rebound
3" = 1000# rebound
4" = 1000# rebound
5" = 1000# rebound
6" = 200# rebound
7" = 200# rebound

This allows the shock to have full rebound when your racing on the track but once done racing the RF will slowly raise up until the shaft extends out 5" and the last 2" it comes up fast. Remember there is a spring overcoming the rebound and it's high zero point of rebound but as it extends that spring load is getting lower so the rebound zero point maybe close or higher then the spring pressure at that point so it comes out super slow and may take a few seconds to go from 0" to 5" but now with a much lower spring pressure it takes 10 mins to go from 5" to 7".

So why do we care about how long it takes to get back fully to ride hieght? Droop measurement, now granted it doesn't add up to as much as people think but if you can get the RF up that last 1 or 2" before they get the measuring done you will gain a % (roughly 25% max or on the high side) of that 1 to 2" at the LR in a lower height.

[billetbirdcage]

Sanctioning bodies cater to the money, but when the money runs out, we are left with less and less car counts. We have been headed down that path more and more each year.
Bilstein has an offroad shock division, and it was only a matter of time before that technology migrated to dirt racing. I spoke with Fox Shocks about it when I was sponsored by them around 2015-2016 about position sensitive RF and LR shock. He said the technology is there, just have to downsize it to a smaller body and shaft size shock to work in the roundy round world.

I maybe wrong on this, been too long

I believe the rules DO NOT allow outside tubes to do a positions sensitive shock but think it's not actually outlawed. So you can still do them, it's just expensive. Penske has a outer body tube that is double walled with passages (an extrusion of sorts where instead of a .125 thick wall aluminum tube its to thin walls with support tubes between them (similar to a brake rotor but vertical between the walls). So you can simply drill a hole on the inside wall in 2 places and bypass fluid and adjust valving between those 2 holes, but obviously you adjusting both comp and rebound. There are other ways but it requires incredible accurate machining that few can do to cut grooves in the shaft body. All of this is extremely expensive and not in the realm of the average person being able to do themselves. however if they allowed outside tubes to be added to the body, then it can be done cheaper (not cheap just cheaper then how it's being done now) and you can install one way valves in those tubes and only adjust comp or rebound.

Look at many off road shocks that have small 1/2" diameter tubes outside the normal shock body and you will see what I mean.


JustAddDirt, I quoted you to address the general subject matter you were talking about, not necessarily directed at you.

I'm not calling for this stuff to be legal or illegal, just pointing out if I remember the rules correctly. They only outlawed the cheaper and easier way to do this, that is possible for a person with reasonable skill to possibly be able to make themselves and not just have to buy it.

[Jim11h]

So basically it's a legal way to cheat the rules lol. Appreciate explanation billet, it makes sense. Shame rules have allowed technology to dominate the sport

[ZERO25]

Could it be configured to help with weight transfer on initial starts?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Could it be configured to help with weight transfer on initial starts?

You could. It would be a disaster. You can't have a disjointed damping curve in your operating range

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So basically it's a legal way to cheat the rules lol. Appreciate explanation billet, it makes sense. Shame rules have allowed technology to dominate the sport

It's yet another example of poorly-considered rules resulting in more complicated parts being used.

[billetbirdcage]

So basically it's a legal way to cheat the rules lol. Appreciate explanation billet, it makes sense. Shame rules have allowed technology to dominate the sport

It's been that way forever, things to beat rules are just more expensive to beat them now. Before the droop rule, you know how many times we have ran over large wire ties on the track after the green flag flies? Those that don't know, people wire tied the frame to axle to hold the LR down to pass tech and once you hit the gas the wire tie broke and you were 2 or 3" over legal.

That was the cheap way, then they started looking for wire ties so: Then you have position sensitive LR shocks with 800# of zero point below natural ride height, so crew stands on the car to smash LR below ride and the shock holds the car down. Once you apply extra poundage from the bars when on the gas, you overcome the zero point and the car will come back to ride height and act normal. You just had to balance the amount of zero point and it's positions to make it work for each LR ride load the spring combo had.

[fastford]

whats the average cost of one of these position sensitive shocks ?