Today's cars

[dirtcrazy4u]

Well we all talk about it. So what's everyones thoughts on why nothing is being changed or better yet what should be changed.

I get to go first. The rule makers in both series have to see what's going on. The racing on the fast tracks s*cks, you time we'll and win your heat and you pretty much can control the outcome of the race if you get into the corner first.

The bodies are out of control. The ears on the front to the dished interiors all designed to make sure you get as much clean air to that spoiler that sticks up 5' in the air.

The shocks, the RF happily roles around with its nose up in the air until that go pedal gets smashed. The LR it just pushes the corner up as high as it can reach again all for catching air. You get the common problem here. AIR, yet no rule makers see it.

My changes. H1ll this is easy, no ears, no RF tie down shock, straight decks from the air cleaner back to the spoilers and then take away that top wicker bill on the spoilers. Straight pc of lexan, no side pcs. You can have your LR shock, because if you can't catch the air it really won't matter.

Last one, taller driver side openings, I see these guys wiggle to get out of these cars all the time. You never want to see a guy in a situation such as Carson Macedo was in at knoxville, the fire, because if that would have been any class other than a sprint car the outcome may have been terrible.

And that brings me to the last one. Safety issues at racetracks. Lucas, WoO, get your heads out of your a**. Does anyone realize what liberals and lawyers would do if there was a situation where a driver could not be rescued in the event of a rollover and a fire. You keep hoping and keeping your fingers crossed, let's all see how that works out when tracks are locked up.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Well we all talk about it. So what's everyones thoughts on why nothing is being changed or better yet what should be changed.

I get to go first. The rule makers in both series have to see what's going on. The racing on the fast tracks s*cks, you time we'll and win your heat and you pretty much can control the outcome of the race if you get into the corner first.

The bodies are out of control. The ears on the front to the dished interiors all designed to make sure you get as much clean air to that spoiler that sticks up 5' in the air.

The shocks, the RF happily roles around with its nose up in the air until that go pedal gets smashed. The LR it just pushes the corner up as high as it can reach again all for catching air. You get the common problem here. AIR, yet no rule makers see it.

My changes. H1ll this is easy, no ears, no RF tie down shock, straight decks from the air cleaner back to the spoilers and then take away that top wicker bill on the spoilers. Straight pc of lexan, no side pcs. You can have your LR shock, because if you can't catch the air it really won't matter.

Last one, taller driver side openings, I see these guys wiggle to get out of these cars all the time. You never want to see a guy in a situation such as Carson Macedo was in at knoxville, the fire, because if that would have been any class other than a sprint car the outcome may have been terrible.

And that brings me to the last one. Safety issues at racetracks. Lucas, WoO, get your heads out of your a**. Does anyone realize what liberals and lawyers would do if there was a situation where a driver could not be rescued in the event of a rollover and a fire. You keep hoping and keeping your fingers crossed, let's all see how that works out when tracks are locked up.

Trying to police shocks is way too hard and not needed. Just put the bodies back 25 years and reduce the spoiler. The nose, decks, roof, and left side body made into a sideboard are the real problems. Next is the rr quarter used as a rudder.

Dirt late models are not supposed to have ticky tack suspension rules. They are supposed to have aero limiting rules.

Nobody wants to rock the boat. Even Randy Weaver likes his Eldora gig so he says "they have a good handle on the bodies now, there's not really anything that can be done". He says this on air with a straight face. I threw up.

Truth be told, the guys operating the big tours probably like it to be very difficult to operate a late model at a competitive level. As long as they get enough entrants for their shows, they like their regulars taking all the money.

[3 wide]

Well there is too much money in the sport for it too change now as long as you got this big money in the sport it's not going to change the local tracks can't afford to run supers now so if the money ever falls out then there will have to be big changes

[Rajflyboy]

$10000 dollar engine limit with claimer rules. Bodies can be woppy jaw however teams want them.

[84wedge]

No spoiler.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

$10000 dollar engine limit with claimer rules. Bodies can be woppy jaw however teams want them.

I've never seen an effective claim rule.

[Rajflyboy]

I've never seen an effective claim rule.It would be fun to see Super Man claim someone’s motor

[Raceready]

^ That would be a sight to see ! ! ^

[ride height]

You can really dial it back by getting rid of the ridiculous bodies you see today. Especially on the 3/8 and bigger tracks. But they won’t do it, unless the fans just quit paying for Pay TV of races and buying tickets to park their butts in the stands. Stop the money flow, and you’ll see some serious scrambling. Until then, forget it.

[fastford]

Well we all talk about it. So what's everyones thoughts on why nothing is being changed or better yet what should be changed.

I get to go first. The rule makers in both series have to see what's going on. The racing on the fast tracks s*cks, you time we'll and win your heat and you pretty much can control the outcome of the race if you get into the corner first.

The bodies are out of control. The ears on the front to the dished interiors all designed to make sure you get as much clean air to that spoiler that sticks up 5' in the air.

The shocks, the RF happily roles around with its nose up in the air until that go pedal gets smashed. The LR it just pushes the corner up as high as it can reach again all for catching air. You get the common problem here. AIR, yet no rule makers see it.

My changes. H1ll this is easy, no ears, no RF tie down shock, straight decks from the air cleaner back to the spoilers and then take away that top wicker bill on the spoilers. Straight pc of lexan, no side pcs. You can have your LR shock, because if you can't catch the air it really won't matter.

Last one, taller driver side openings, I see these guys wiggle to get out of these cars all the time. You never want to see a guy in a situation such as Carson Macedo was in at knoxville, the fire, because if that would have been any class other than a sprint car the outcome may have been terrible.

And that brings me to the last one. Safety issues at racetracks. Lucas, WoO, get your heads out of your a**. Does anyone realize what liberals and lawyers would do if there was a situation where a driver could not be rescued in the event of a rollover and a fire. You keep hoping and keeping your fingers crossed, let's all see how that works out when tracks are locked up.

we have this type of race car down here now , its called modified,s , there rules pretty much fit your requirements ....

[fastford]

Trying to police shocks is way too hard and not needed. Just put the bodies back 25 years and reduce the spoiler. The nose, decks, roof, and left side body made into a sideboard are the real problems. Next is the rr quarter used as a rudder.

Dirt late models are not supposed to have ticky tack suspension rules. They are supposed to have aero limiting rules.

Nobody wants to rock the boat. Even Randy Weaver likes his Eldora gig so he says "they have a good handle on the bodies now, there's not really anything that can be done". He says this on air with a straight face. I threw up.

Truth be told, the guys operating the big tours probably like it to be very difficult to operate a late model at a competitive level. As long as they get enough entrants for their shows, they like their regulars taking all the money.

super late models are super late models , start restricting them more and your just creating another crate / spec class ....

[play4kps]

Its rerally impossible to police. The days is coming soon that touring late models will be like NASCAR and locals will have their version. If the weekly driver was to keep up, they could never afford it. That is the only thing that could possibly save the sport, people can bury their head in the sand and think their is no problem. Or they only support national touring series and let weekly racing die its already beginning death.

[play4kps]

There is no incentive to fix it! The corporate sponsors of the WOO, Lucal Oil, Eldora, Dirt on dirt and flo-racing are'nt going away. If you think TMac, Davenport , Oneal, or Thronton jr pay the same price for components as Feger, Drown, Schlenk or Dohm pays you fooling yourself. The system is set up to keep the top teams without competition. The other big elephant in the room, nobody wants to look atis. Top heavy purses are destroying the sport. What a joke, 129,000 to win and 25,000 for second, 7500 for seventh, and 6000 for tenth. Thats a joke, spread the wealth save the sport. 60,000 for 1st, 35,000 for 2nd, 25,000 for 3rd and pay thru the field better, set up a pirse like the Knoxville nationals sprint race. https://www.knoxvilleraceway.com/Event/knoxville-nationals

[lokwaidid]

weekly late model racing is almost dead. there are very few tracks with a regular show of super lates. sooooo.... where will the cars come from to make a lucas, woo, mars, ultra... 10k-15k show come from? lucas oil, shaffers oil, or any other sponsor has this in there advertising budget and it's probably just a small part. i doubt they really car. the chassis, frame builder, and engine builders you would think would get together to save this part of there business unless it's just a small part and not much of a loss. in another couple of years, do you think they will get enough cars for a regular lucus show for a consy at most tracks with the way things are going?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

super late models are super late models , start restricting them more and your just creating another crate / spec class ....

We've had this discussion before and I think we are mainly on the same page. They definitely don't need all the stupid suspension rules they continue to dream up. A body that isn't as aero efficient is in no way making it a spec or even being untrue to the historical spirit of the class.

[Lizardracing]

The unanswerable question is how do you reverse technology advances?

Not just in the chassis/body designs but the tools that allow the technical knowledge as well that didn't used to exist.
You can't take anything from the 90's and stop the progression of technology. You can't unknow what's now known. What now known, will be applied somewhere, somehow, and then eventually you'll end up back where you started.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The unanswerable question is how do you reverse technology advances?

Not just in the chassis/body designs but the tools that allow the technical knowledge as well that didn't used to exist.
You can't take anything from the 90's and stop the progression of technology. You can't unknow what's now known. What now known, will be applied somewhere, somehow, and then eventually you'll end up back where you started.

You can't. You sure as heck can enforce dimensions and geometry. Luckily, those are the real issues, but you wouldn't know it if you have been following the rule book.

Knowledge isn't the problem. The fact the car has droop isn't directly the problem either. The fact the car blows a huge hole in the air and that the cars depend on front downforce is the problem.

[Henry Every]

Does anyone realize what liberals and lawyers would do if there was a situation where a driver could not be rescued in the event of a rollover and a fire. You keep hoping and keeping your fingers crossed, let's all see how that works out when tracks are locked up.

This already happened its how the genius rule makers came about imposing fire suppression and FULL containment seats. Just like big Gov they dont think, they react so it LOOKS like they are doing something. The Fire suppression deal I have no problem with, but when I pointed out to a series owner that his imposed full containment seat was a double hazard, first it nullifies any hope of escape out the right side. Second the design of full containment puts the drivers head in a confined space that promotes a "Ping-Pong" effect on rollovers and rough tracks. I know several drivers with concussion symptoms after racing on a rough service from their heads being ricocheted back and forth. When I pointed out how the seats trap you in the car in the event of a rollover/fire, he told me not to worry he had a blanket he was coming to get me with... So his logic was wait in the car while cooking, yeah no thanks Delmar.

Things can be improved without making Supers into mods, which really have the same issues, IMHO. Like has been said, put the bodies back like they were in 1995 and actually enforce the rules. We use to have a maximum body height rule from ground of 6 inches all the way around. If you can't bury the nose without ripping it off they'll make some setup changes. 1 spring/shock per wheel. I like the drop decks myself because it makes it easier to exit to the Right if needed. No jbars, RS panhard bar only. Front and rear wheel track must be withing 2 inches of each other. Quick and dirty but simple is always best in my book.

[dirtcrazy4u]

You can't. You sure as heck can enforce dimensions and geometry. Luckily, those are the real issues, but you wouldn't know it if you have been following the rule book.

Knowledge isn't the problem. The fact the car has droop isn't directly the problem either. The fact the car blows a huge hole in the air and that the cars depend on front downforce is the problem.

Thank you Mastersbuilt. Someone finally got it. I'm not saying we need mods or crates or even another class. Whats killing the racing is the bodies. It's trully to the point of if you get caught up in a minor bump and run and that front end gets torn up it changes the handling of the car. You see a super get into a corner hard and the hole drivers side of the car is lifting. If that deck was flat and had no way to catch the air I think you would see a big difference. OMG, that means you would actually have to drive the car.

[Lizardracing]

Modern edge tech allows the cars to maximize every rule book spec as tested and approved of in shaker tables, jigs, wind tunnel testing, load testing, shock dynos, etc...All the high end expensive stuff. Pretty soon the guy who could afford the technology to discover the minute settings got a advantage even if its super small. Put enough small ones together and you get larger ones.

I repeat, you CANNOT un-know what is now known.

You cannot go backwards in knowledge. Even if ALL bodies were 1995 bodies and measured with lazers, or better yet, all built by one company to make sure they are all the same, then lazers used to make sure they all hung the same on the chassis the modern tech still allows all the other parts of the car to become the next advantage and the cycle continues on forever.

What goes up must come down......Dirt racing will fall eventually. I don't know when, but nothing can progress forever.

Oh wait....This exact thing happened to NASCAR and it's why it sucks on TV. It's gotten so technical it's out of the realm of what most people enjoy and can even be relayed on TV. everything is down to thousands of an inch and ounces of weight and 100ths of a pound. That doesn't relay well on a screen.

Money buys tech, tech provides knowledge, knowledge provides an advantage no matter how small and in a few years the money to find the advantage is out of reach for most. It's what we are seeing in all forms of sports but I think it's more apparent in small time dirt racing.

[dirtcrazy4u]

I think if you take the ears off the nose, flatten the decks from the air cleaner to the spoiler, taller roofs, and a 5 inch spoiler with no wickerbill and no side wings. That car is easily over a second slower. That car is going to lose entry speed which in turn would make better racing. I also feel it would make a difference on the big tracks and would not dry the tracks out as much.

[fastford]

We've had this discussion before and I think we are mainly on the same page. They definitely don't need all the stupid suspension rules they continue to dream up. A body that isn't as aero efficient is in no way making it a spec or even being untrue to the historical spirit of the class.

while I do agree with you , I will say this , sprint cars seem to have topped out several years ago as far as tech goes , I think dirt late models are getting pretty close as well .....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

while I do agree with you , I will say this , sprint cars seem to have topped out several years ago as far as tech goes , I think dirt late models are getting pretty close as well .....

Sprint cars are much simpler machines. I think late models still have a decent amount of improvement left in them. I have at least 3 identified defects where the cars can be improved without any compromise. The fact that we do counter productive stuff with the suspension to gain downforce, leaves a ton of room for improvement. Some of that fact has been exploited, but not all of it.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Remember the basics of a sprint car hasn't changed. It's been a 4 bar design with a straight front axle forever. You talk about shock tech, those guys are in another area of discussion completely.

[grt74]

no wide bores would save alot, but there are alot of them out already, so it would hurt at 1st

[Josh Bayko]

Just getting back to like ‘08 bodies with flat 36” decks, flat roofs and closed in sails and actual tech to enforce it would make a world of difference and the actual change in look would be pretty subtle.

[Henry Every]

Modern edge tech allows the cars to maximize every rule book spec as tested and approved of in shaker tables, jigs, wind tunnel testing, load testing, shock dynos, etc...All the high end expensive stuff. Pretty soon the guy who could afford the technology to discover the minute settings got a advantage even if its super small. Put enough small ones together and you get larger ones.

I repeat, you CANNOT un-know what is now known.

You cannot go backwards in knowledge. Even if ALL bodies were 1995 bodies and measured with lazers, or better yet, all built by one company to make sure they are all the same, then lazers used to make sure they all hung the same on the chassis the modern tech still allows all the other parts of the car to become the next advantage and the cycle continues on forever.

What goes up must come down......Dirt racing will fall eventually. I don't know when, but nothing can progress forever.

Oh wait....This exact thing happened to NASCAR and it's why it sucks on TV. It's gotten so technical it's out of the realm of what most people enjoy and can even be relayed on TV. everything is down to thousands of an inch and ounces of weight and 100ths of a pound. That doesn't relay well on a screen.

Money buys tech, tech provides knowledge, knowledge provides an advantage no matter how small and in a few years the money to find the advantage is out of reach for most. It's what we are seeing in all forms of sports but I think it's more apparent in small time dirt racing.

While I agree you can't UN-know what is known, you can regulate in such a way that maximum traction potential of the cars nullifies the usability of wide bore 900+ HP engines. At present the body rules seem to be a useless section in the book, with the nose companies making whatever they want and the sanctions giving the big thumbs up. Lots of simple things could be done to diminish the potential traction but the sanctions lack the will and intelligence to see how they are cutting their own throats at the grass roots. We use to have weight breaks for engines less than 400. you could impose a weight penalty on the wide bore stuff and its possible to walk things back in such a way thats its less financially crippling to those already invested. But something needs to be done before the DLM market crashes. Its been brought up before and its proven that it worked, but when Wedge cars were the pinnacle of technology the same thing happened, only then some smart people saw the writing on the wall and implemented "Smaller Bodies" and just like that DLM went from declining to growth that lasted for decades. We use to have a rule about not adding panels under the car, "No Tunnels", but I was watching HTF tear down their wrecked car and low and behold the entire length of the under car from behind RF suspension to the RR was paneled in creating a tunnel...WTF? These sanctions are derelict of their duties and a freaking joke. JMO

[fastford]

Sprint cars are much simpler machines. I think late models still have a decent amount of improvement left in them. I have at least 3 identified defects where the cars can be improved without any compromise. The fact that we do counter productive stuff with the suspension to gain downforce, leaves a ton of room for improvement. Some of that fact has been exploited, but not all of it.

when you say room for improvement , do you mean while maintaining the current body (down force ) rules?

[84wedge]

Did anyone see the roof of JD's car? It has V shaped protrusions all the way across the back like some sort of stealth technology.https://www.speedsport.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/44/2023/01/31/lucas-bubba-butcosk-1-30-2023-254-837x465.jpg

[ride height]

I’m surprised nobody has made the body panels with evenly spaced dimples…like on a golf ball. Why? A golf ball without dimples flies 30% less distance without the dimples. It’s pure physics. Dimples reduce the air friction in flight. Probably would work somewhat on a race car. I know late models without a roof go faster. Most of y’all know that…but ya…a golf ball has dimples for a reason. You get a farther shot with the same amount of energy compared to a smooth surface.

[over4T]

Dimpled roof has already been done. Recently saw pictures of a Modified that did it with a tractor and a trailer hitch ball. Laid it out carefully and had at it. It did weaken the roof enough that some reinforcing was called for. He said he couldn't tell that his car was any faster but the tech guy at his track said there was no rule against it Some people have too much time on their hands.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

when you say room for improvement , do you mean while maintaining the current body (down force ) rules?

Yes, I'm talking suspension flaws that exist because we are obsessed with downforce over suspension function. If the bodies were tamed down, some of the issues might naturally disappear as suspension function may become more important again.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Did anyone see the roof of JD's car? It has V shaped protrusions all the way across the back like some sort of stealth technology.https://www.speedsport.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/44/2023/01/31/lucas-bubba-butcosk-1-30-2023-254-837x465.jpg

Those vortex generators on roofs have been around a very long time. I have an old roof from 2010 that has them.

[jog49]

"$10000 dollar engine limit with claimer rules."

A former Yugo mechanic won't attempt a super engine for that paltry amount. Durham, Cornett, Clements, etc. would see you coming and lock the door!

[dirtcrazy4u]

Great picture. It shows how dependent these cars are. Lip at the front of the RR wheel opening, the back of the roof, bottom of right side body. All done I'm sure in a wind tunnel. That spoiler at the LR is creating a lot of downforce. They need to start calling them super late missiles.

[Mopar DLM]

As long as that engine claim rule works like it did years ago. If you claimed a guys engine then you had to swap or you bought it and had to run it the next week. Lots of upset folks that got outrun by way less engine then they swapped for or bought. Oddly enough we never got picked on because nobody wanted to buy headers, bell housings and transmissions just to be able to run next week.

[fastford]

Yes, I'm talking suspension flaws that exist because we are obsessed with downforce over suspension function. If the bodies were tamed down, some of the issues might naturally disappear as suspension function may become more important again.

Yep , I agree with you 100% , and thus the expense , sad but I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle now , finally going modified racing with my daughter next spring hopefully , about all me and her can afford ......

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yep , I agree with you 100% , and thus the expense , sad but I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle now , finally going modified racing with my daughter next spring hopefully , about all me and her can afford ......

Anyone with balls and a tape measure can put it back. These things are no mid engine Swartz car. However, it seems nobody wants to. I'm trying to decide if I want to find something else to play with or quit it all myself.

[BVogtjr30]

How about putting mandatory 2” holes in the nose in areas that won’t put the radiator at risk and possibly a smaller spoiler. The bodies are getting back to the wedge style and had to do a complete reset on the body @83? Maybe that’s what we need to look at again. Plenty of cars out there but only @40 shoe up for $50k to win but get Same amount for $5 to win. There’s a top tier of cars that most know they have no chance against and will show up for less money to win to be competitive

[Mike]

Well there is too much money in the sport for it too change now as long as you got this big money in the sport it's not going to change the local tracks can't afford to run supers now so if the money ever falls out then there will have to be big changes

2 things I have said for at least 10 years if not more. The bodies are going to kill the sport and as long as people keep packing the stands at the shows of the groups/sanctions that have the power to make changes nothing is going to change.

For those 10 years the only thing those sanctions wanted to talk about was the latest tire rule that was going to “save the sport”.

The only rules those top sanctions care about are the ones that help put money in their pockets.

[fastford]

Anyone with balls and a tape measure can put it back. These things are no mid engine Swartz car. However, it seems nobody wants to. I'm trying to decide if I want to find something else to play with or quit it all myself.

I am gone try and help the few buddy,s i have that can still afford to run a late model , but my daughter is ready to race again , house is nearly finished so were going modified racing next year, I doubt I will ever quit being involved in racing in some form , and to me thats the beauty of dirt racing , there is a class for about any budget , if you want to race .....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I am gone try and help the few buddy,s i have that can still afford to run a late model , but my daughter is ready to race again , house is nearly finished so were going modified racing next year, I doubt I will ever quit being involved in racing in some form , and to me thats the beauty of dirt racing , there is a class for about any budget , if you want to race .....

I hear you. I own like 4 of those crown vics. It doesn't get any cheaper, but the tech side of things is quite boring.

[Mopar DLM]

Is there any chance that in an off season they decide to change the body rules as an attempt to draw more attention to the sport and try to attract more people to come watch to see how the cars race differently. Would help sales as everyone would have to go out and buy or build new bumpers, nosepiece, T bar, sheet metal.

[billetbirdcage]

Is there any chance that in an off season they decide to change the body rules as an attempt to draw more attention to the sport and try to attract more people to come watch to see how the cars race differently. Would help sales as everyone would have to go out and buy or build new bumpers, nosepiece, T bar, sheet metal.

Anythings possible but I give it a 99% chance that nothing changes on body rules

[Rajflyboy]

I love the bodies. These things are animals on the track and fast as hell.

[84wedge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6g2XQQBLFM&ab_channel=JoeLuskRacing