Lucas Oil

[Highside Hustler25]

For Christ sake Schwally, race monitor doesn't lie.

[DennisErbFan]

I was afraid they were going to play favorites there for a second. The only evidence of a “finish line” is provided through timing and scoring, and the Pierce’s transponder passed the line first. He won.

[KTMLew]

I blame Chastain.


BENGHAZI! EMAILS! PANT SUITS!

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Sparks were flying last couple laps. Pierce still in a longhorn?

[Driver50x]

That was some darn good racing! Kind of unorganized, but the racing was outstanding.

[intel8]

Awesome race! Deer Creek is a place.

[Highside Hustler25]

Maybe the most underrated track in the country. Even without the last lap pass, that race was FANtastic.

[Snake X3]

Sparks were flying last couple laps. Pierce still in a longhorn?

Yes. Yes he is!

What a race! What a finish! I'm a big fan of both drivers, so win/win for me, but that post-race interview with Hud was just heartbreaking. I really felt awful for him. But...Bobby PIERRRRRRRRRRRRCE!

[gorj]

Great race from start to finish

[Patansplant]

Too bad they didn't show the viewers where the scoring loop was. From my seat it looked like Hud won but who knows where the scoring loop is.

[Snake X3]

Maybe the most underrated track in the country. Even without the last lap pass, that race was FANtastic.

yeah. I love that track. Great racing all over. Just a shame it got a bit too top dominant at the end, but no complaints with a track like that.

[pierceFAN]

Lucas oil race....im.suprised they didn't give it to the Lucas regular

[Pennsboro32]

Yeah since Mark makes the rules…. At least that’s what I’ve been told.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Actually, Hudson's transponder said "P1", DennisErbFan

If you do the math of the transponder output, and accept the transponder locations as equal, the math from the difference in lap 74 and 75 says Pierce by .001, but the transponder output of position had Hudson P1

The actual finish line should be official anyway, like it is at Eldora. The transponder is just a scoring aid.

[ride height]

If the flag stand is the finish line , clearly the 1 car had a nose out front. That’s not my opinion…that’s pure facts, and I’m not even a fan of the 1 car, nor am I against the 32 car.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You are 100% correct ride height. I'm not sure if or when we quit using the finish line to determine races.

[t3r3e3]

You are 100% correct ride height. I'm not sure if or when we quit using the finish line to determine races.

Hudson won that race at the finish line. Transponder location shenanigans are lame. Congrats to Bobby though.

[Highside Hustler25]

It's pretty obvious that some are just a little biased. Do you really think Flo sets their camera's perfectly perpendicular to the start finish line? The camera view everyone watched on Flo is not guaranteed perfect. Sure it looked like Hud won. I thought he won. Went straight to race monitor. Pierce by .002 seconds.
Why anyone would think live timing is not the accurate way to determine the winner is by me.
And by the way, I'm pullin for Huddy to win it. Not Pierce. But again, I try not to let favoritism sway my opinion like some do.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

It's pretty obvious that some are just a little biased. Do you really think Flo sets their camera's perfectly perpendicular to the start finish line? The camera view everyone watched on Flo is not guaranteed perfect. Sure it looked like Hud won. I thought he won. Went straight to race monitor. Pierce by .002 seconds.
Why anyone would think live timing is not the accurate way to determine the winner is by me.
And by the way, I'm pullin for Huddy to win it. Not Pierce. But again, I try not to let favoritism sway my opinion like some do.

I hate Mark Richards. His car won by 4 photo angles. His car has P1 on the lap by lap data on MRP

I've seen eldora overturn a finish when the video clearly shows one car and " lap data" said another.

[ride height]

It's pretty obvious that some are just a little biased. Do you really think Flo sets their camera's perfectly perpendicular to the start finish line? The camera view everyone watched on Flo is not guaranteed perfect. Sure it looked like Hud won. I thought he won. Went straight to race monitor. Pierce by .002 seconds.
Why anyone would think live timing is not the accurate way to determine the winner is by me.
And by the way, I'm pullin for Huddy to win it. Not Pierce. But again, I try not to let favoritism sway my opinion like some do.

Going by your logic on the transponders…which I agree in a perfect world it’s hard to argue with a computer on timing….the transponders would have to be placed EXACTLY in the same place on every car. Which I’m sure it’s not. So…it’s.the transponders that win…not the actual car. I personally don’t care which car wins….but I do care if someone gets cheated by a computer or it’s sensor placement. Both of these kids are hard racing drivers. Let’s let the car thats nose actually hits the finish line first be the winner, (i.e…a horse race) not a device that’s not even on the very front of the car.

[bleedblue55]

Same scenario happened with Rocket1 a couple years ago, but Shepp was awarded the victory. Happened at the midwest track that has a 1/4 mile inside a 1/2 mile that share the front straightaway. Transponders said one thing, eyesight said different. If you score the entire race by transponder there's no need for discussion. Maybe tracks should have indicators showing exactly where the scoring loops are.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Ride height, the problem is there is no way to put it on the exact same spot unless it's the tip of the nose. A race is won when a person or vehicle breaks an imaginary vertical plane at a finish line.

You put it on the rr axle tube, my nose can be well behind the other guy, if I'm running real sideways, and I'll be declared the winner by transponder

[ride height]

There aren’t transponders on horses and I assure you the photo finishes are commonplace. They have no problem awarding the proper winner. Again…the transponders and the computer….you can’t argue with they accuracy of time, but unless they are mounted on the very tip of the nose…, you’re going have this sort of thing. It’s not an opinion…it’s physics. This is assuming the finish line in directly in front of the flagman. If the finish line is 5 yards to the left of the flagman…in this case…then 32 clearly is the winner. But anybody with normal vision can see the blue cars nose crosses in front of the flagman first. Albeit it’s very very close. Transponders are excellent for timing and scoring UNTIL you have a case like this.

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

I hate Mark Richards.

so doesn't lucas apparently.

dirty bobby got a gift.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I agree 100%. They are a scoring tool. They are not an absolute judge or arbiter.

They can only become absolute, if you suspend the concept of how a race has been won since the dawn of man.

[waaac77]

How do they not put the transponder on the nose??? The back rr axle… are you kidding? if I was a 10 year old kid I’d think to put the transponder on the front of my bicycle. The back of the f***ing car? Haha that can’t be correct. It’s really placed at the back of the car?

[gorj]

The scoring loop may be a know fact among the series and competitors for scoring. I’m watching from home.

[gorj]

Another tough call to be made by Rick and staff. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes. James did mention they checked to verify the transponders were mounted at the same location on each car. 2023 LOLMDS Rule Book-
F.) Checkered Flag
i.) The checkered flag signifies the completion of the event. All cars must pass underneath the checkered flag to be scored correctly on the final lap of the event.
ii.) Any race and/or qualifying attempt is not completed until the checkered flag is displayed.

[Snake X3]

To avoid the ridiculous accusations of favoritism, there has to be an impartial judge for the winner. Transponders are used so these idiot conspiracy theorists don't have a leg to stand on, yet it doesn't stop them anyway. It looked to me like Hud was the first to the line, but the computers, which are impartial said no.

I feel awful for Hud. He's a good kid. But Bobby won. End of story.

[Barbecueboy]

I hate Mark Richards. His car won by 4 photo angles. His car has P1 on the lap by lap data on MRP

I've seen eldora overturn a finish when the video clearly shows one car and " lap data" said another.

People hate Mark Richards?? Jk mastersbilt…..it looked like rocket 1 won it to me from the recliner also.
Not sure how anyone can bitch about how it was scored when they use the transponder literally for every official timed lap……hook ‘em horns and congrats to the 32 crew.

[Barbecueboy]

If they score the qualifying and lap scoring by the flag wave and crossing under it then I would be a little more sympathetic to the argument that it looks like Hudson finished first…but they don’t, they do every other situational timing and scoring with the transponders……if we are going to dismiss them at the finish then let’s dismiss them with everything and go back to manual scoring and qualifying through the whole event.
Can’t have it both ways imo…..tough break for Hudson, but he lost.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

To avoid the ridiculous accusations of favoritism, there has to be an impartial judge for the winner. Transponders are used so these idiot conspiracy theorists don't have a leg to stand on, yet it doesn't stop them anyway. It looked to me like Hud was the first to the line, but the computers, which are impartial said no.

I feel awful for Hud. He's a good kid. But Bobby won. End of story.

Computer is impartial, but used a different criteria. You could change the outcome of a horse race if you placed a transponder on the left rear leg.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Barbeque,

I can't agree. They are good timers. They can't determine which car breaks an imaginary plane. The transponder has made some bad optics several times over the years.

You are talking about retraining people on what it means to finish a race first. We learn that in grade school and humans have been using the concept from the dawn of man.

[kidrock]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, if the drivers are told or already know how the finish will be determined at the end of a race. Nothing else matters. I guess that's why we didn't hear Hudson complain to much in his post race interview. I'm sure he didn't like and thought he won at the finish line. In order to see how close it really was at the flag stand or finish line we need to see a photo that is in direct line of the finish line. It would also be nice to see a photo in direct line of the timing and scoring for the transponders.

[Highside Hustler25]

If everyone has the transponder mounted on the vertical tube nearest the engine mount, they should all be the same. Any time a track official changes out a transponder, they are working under the front wheel well. I've never known one to be mounted on the rear axle tube.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If everyone has the transponder mounted on the vertical tube nearest the engine mount, they should all be the same. Any time a track official changes out a transponder, they are working under the front wheel well. I've never known one to be mounted on the rear axle tube.

Some tracks/series use rear axle tube. For your example to be as good as it could be, it would need to be on the lower control arm. But, it isn't.they are easily placed inches off, car to car, compared to front bumper point.

[Andrews42FAN]

They simply need to place a definitive marker at the "line" with a camera straight down that line. That in combination with transponder would go a long ways to removing confusion or questionable outcomes. But just like the droop rule they will avoid making what should be an easy decision.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

They simply need to place a definitive marker at the "line" with a camera straight down that line. That in combination with transponder would go a long ways to removing confusion or questionable outcomes. But just like the droop rule they will avoid making what should be an easy decision.

They like it to be cloudy. There's no camera at the droop check. The rule is also very fallible as an equalizer of competition.

[Pennsboro32]

Loops not matching flag stands is just plain dumb. It’s 2023, what are we doing?

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

They simply need to place a definitive marker at the "line" with a camera straight down that line. That in combination with transponder would go a long ways to removing confusion or questionable outcomes. But just like the droop rule they will avoid making what should be an easy decision.

that would make it to hard to sway towards their in particular fav at the time.

[HikerDan]

What is this? Some kind of weird Le Mans Ford vs. Ferrari scoring thing? The car that takes the checkered first ain't always the winner. lol. Good lordy imagine if the roles were reversed here (the 32 inside and the 1 outside) and Lucas gifted the win to Team 1. A much uglier scene, and conversations, and future considering the enormity of conspiracy theorists out there running around.

This is a great opportunity for the Lucas Series officials to step up and address how they exactly determined the winner and explain how they set up for the scoring and timing. Why did the race finish before the checker and why was the device placed at that spot? Team Rocket seems to be ok with the finish but it is a bit of a head scratcher.

Imagine if Bubba Wallace lost by a nose in Atlanta tonight to Chase Elliott and NASCAR claimed Bubba beat him to the scoring loop before the start/finish line and awarded Bubba the win. LOL
Total chaos for certain. That might actually be fun to see the meltdown from the fans but I wouldn't want anyone attacked or threatened with bodily harm.

[EvelB7]

We run two series, one of them has the transponder on the front horn while the other uses the axle tube. I don't think we need to add another person/item to the series, the electronic scoring seems to be just fine. Can't please everyone, but when you start to talk about favoritism it appears the transponders take that out of the equation; just make sure in tech the transponder is in the correct location....Great race with these two either way, very cool that it comes down to this discussion!

[ride height]

There needs to be a marker somewhere (like directly across from the flagman) …a fluorescent colored fiberglass rod (so it doesn’t hurt anybody if it’s hit) with a camera etc.directly across from it. You simply review the film. Just like a horse race . This isn’t 500.00 they are racing for. At this level it’s a pretty good sack full of money. Fix the issue. The transponders definately have their place, but in this case a level headed person needs to review the photo finish and do the right thing. Either way. I don’t care who won this race….I truly don’t…I just hate to see things decided like it was. Dumb. In this day and age, and Lucas isn’t exactly a Fum buck outfit. They have resources.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

My question is what did Mark Richard's have to say on this incident?

[Highside Hustler25]

It's pretty obvious that the camera crew were set up a bit to the left of the flagman. That view is angular to the flagstand giving a false perception of where that start finish line actually is. For the streaming viewers, they need to start setting these cameras perpendicular to the flagstand or finish line instead of giving folks a false view of things.

[HoosierDirtFan]

The scoring loop is well before the flag stand. The finish line is where that loop is buried underground, it's never right at the flag stand.

[ride height]

I guess that’s the issue…I never ever remember seeing a permanent finish line at a dirt track. Like you see at a nascar type track. Not sure how you’d even make one… I just assumed the flagstand is where it always was. I highly doubt every car has the transponder mounted exactly the same distance from the tip of the nose.

[Barbecueboy]

Barbeque,

I can't agree. They are good timers. They can't determine which car breaks an imaginary plane. The transponder has made some bad optics several times over the years.

You are talking about retraining people on what it means to finish a race first. We learn that in grade school and humans have been using the concept from the dawn of man.
So if they can’t accurately determine the imaginary plane at the finish using the transponders how is it so accurate and absolute with qualifying when they cross that same imaginary plane?

I’m just trying to understand why it works as the absolute snapshot of a qualifying lap when they cross the imaginary plane can’t be as absolute on the finish?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Barbeque,

Location of the two points is unimportant during qualifying. We are just seeing who did a lap the fastest. It electronically starts and stops the stopwatch, if you will. It might be starting and stopping at a point that's maybe a foot off the line, but it's not likely to really impact the result. If it does, that fact is imperceptible to us.

A race is ended when a nose breaks a plane. Or at least that's what I have been conditioned to understand.

[formercrewguy]

If everyone has the transponder mounted on the vertical tube nearest the engine mount, they should all be the same. Any time a track official changes out a transponder, they are working under the front wheel well. I've never known one to be mounted on the rear axle tube.

Whynot speedway made us put it on the rightside rear axle tube. It was tough to do too!

[Barbecueboy]

Awesome race! Deer Creek is a place.

Everything from the grass mowed, the different versions of the start spangled banner, the presentations of the flag,the 50/50 the modified announcers and just all of it in general. Even the placements of the billboards, banners etc….three wide mod start too.

Everything about that event is well thought out….throw in the great racing and that place is one of the tops in the country.

Well done deer creek, well done……can’t wait to get there.

[Barbecueboy]

Barbeque,

Location of the two points is unimportant during qualifying. We are just seeing who did a lap the fastest. It electronically starts and stops the stopwatch, if you will. It might be starting and stopping at a point that's maybe a foot off the line, but it's not likely to really impact the result. If it does, that fact is imperceptible to us.

A race is ended when a nose breaks a plane. Or at least that's what I have been conditioned to understand.

Wouldn’t it be important to start 1rst in the heat race instead of maybe 2cond or 3rd…..and that’s a result of the qualifying effort.

Thanks for your insight, the guys I run around with run the transponder on the rear axel tube …sportsman class.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't see any way it impacts your qualifying result to the degree you suggest, barbeque. A car would have to be slowing rapidly, as it approaches the line.

[kidrock]

So, if they determine the finish line is 3 feet before the flag stand would that be acceptable or does the finish line have to be directly in the middle of the flag stand.

[Snake X3]

I can't wait to hear what DirtTrackr has to say about all this. He usually has good takes. IMO, the most important thing we can take out of this is that Hud was a good sport. He didn't throw a tantrum or have Don tear down the Lucas banner. He hasn't to my knowledge posted a childish rant trashing Schwallie. He was heartbroken but he showed what a class act he is. That is why even though he is driving Rocket 1, a team I have hated ever since Josh doored Casey, I'm still a fan. Say what you will about Don, but he raised a great kid. He should be proud.

[lurker]

Great race, very interesting topic.

Personally, I think they should have awarded both with the win, and added up 1st place and 2nd place monies, then split it equally. I’ve seen tracks do this before.

[Barbecueboy]

I don't see any way it impacts your qualifying result to the degree you suggest, barbeque. A car would have to be slowing rapidly, as it approaches the line.

I was meaning the timing itself……if the clock stops/ or registers or marks or whatever the term is when a cars transponder crosses the line during qualifying and it’s good enough to register the q time and set that car into a certain heat race and set the stage for the race…..how can the same transponder in the same exact position that crosses the line first not count for the win?……if it counts for everything that’s timed or registered before the win?

All questions I’m trying to understand

[Barbecueboy]

I can't wait to hear what DirtTrackr has to say about all this. He usually has good takes. IMO, the most important thing we can take out of this is that Hud was a good sport. He didn't throw a tantrum or have Don tear down the Lucas banner. He hasn't to my knowledge posted a childish rant trashing Schwallie. He was heartbroken but he showed what a class act he is. That is why even though he is driving Rocket 1, a team I have hated ever since Josh doored Casey, I'm still a fan. Say what you will about Don, but he raised a great kid. He should be proud.

Well dam snake, I couldn’t have said that any better myself……..well done and duly noted about Hudson.

[Snake X3]

@BBQ - thanks man. I have a lot of respect for your opinion, so that means something.

[ride height]

BBQ…the transponders work for timing because it’s measuring the time/distance of the whole track. But at the end of the race…it’s one specific spot. So as of now…it’s not the car that gets there first…it’s the transponder. When the race is this close as it was at Deer…..you have an issue. Unless the transponders are all the same distance from the nose to the transponder (which I highly doubt) it’s not a true measure of winner. There needs to be , like a horse track…a photo shot across the official finish line. One of these days it’s going to happen at one of these major events like the World, PDC etc….and there’s going to be a biblical crap storm over it. It’s all so unnecessary. Just put a camera across the finish line on these big boy races. Lucas and WOO etc…they can afford it.

[GrocMax]

LIDAR for the finish, transponders for timing/lap scoring. Transponders solve a bunch of problems for a traveling series, speeds the show up, don't need several people hand scoring each lap and trying to figure out who was where and how many laps down, its impartial as well, no home cookin' by the track supplied human scorers, just one series official paying attention to a laptop. At 80 MPH one millisecond is 1.408 inches of distance, so if the loop ain't perpendicular to the track or the transponders aren't in the exact same spot in relation to the nose, we'll continue to see questionable 'visual' results. Oh, and the loops don't stay put where they were first put, that dirt moves around over a period of time.

[Pennsboro32]

@BBQ - thanks man. I have a lot of respect for your opinion, so that means something.

Say what you want about Don but he raised a dang good kid. Hudson is always polite and well mannered.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So, if they determine the finish line is 3 feet before the flag stand would that be acceptable or does the finish line have to be directly in the middle of the flag stand.

I guess they can put it in the center of turn 3, as long as it's marked and we are seeing if a car reaches it first. We shouldn't have to ask the man behind the curtain. It should be a visible result.

[GrocMax]

I've seen some tracks actually mark the wall where the transponder loop was originally installed, but that don't mean a couple years later it ain't moved towards the first turn in the middle of the track from soaking the track, farming, and laps. And it generally ain't right at the flagstand. So on the rare occasion of a photo finish we get a questionable visual.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I've seen some tracks actually mark the wall where the transponder loop was originally installed, but that don't mean a couple years later it ain't moved towards the first turn in the middle of the track from soaking the track, farming, and laps. And it generally ain't right at the flagstand. So on the rare occasion of a photo finish we get a questionable visual.

The one at Atomic is apparently crooked as hell, favoring the high line. I know that from bad experience.

[Hoosier_Dirt]

According to Rick Schwallie, transponders on both cars were located on the left front where the bumper and frame meet (series rule). The scoring loop is at the pole to the left of the flag stand. Story is on DoD

[ride height]

According to Rick Schwallie, transponders on both cars were located on the left front where the bumper and frame meet (series rule). The scoring loop is at the pole to the left of the flag stand. Story is on DoD

Thanks for that info. I guess the problem for us here in fan land is that we don’t really know the official finish line spot, nor do the racers I’d bet. I still stand by my opinion on a camera and a marked official finish line. What if a transponder falls off or becomes inoperable during the race? I mean for the Lucas, WOO , you’d think they’d have a fool proof result system besides a transponder. LIDAR, as mentioned by another above. Like I said…some day something like this is going to happen at Jewel race and there’s going to be “scene”. All preventable.

[GrocMax]

Well, bottom line is if Hud hadn't banged the cushion out of two, or had blocked the slider early into three, he'd win.

[GrocMax]

Nerd math- At 100MPH .002 seconds is 3.52 inches. Exactly.

[KTMLew]

I guess they can put it in the center of turn 3, as long as it's marked and we are seeing if a car reaches it first. We shouldn't have to ask the man behind the curtain. It should be a visible result.

Rulebook says you haven't "finished" the race until you cross under the checkered flag. If scoring loop is 10 foot before flag stand, transponder makes your actual position between the loop and flagstand irrelevant.

What I saw was Rocket1 "finished" (went under flag) 1st but 32 won the race?

I'm in full agreement with the guys saying needs to be a camera triggered say 18" before "finish line". And every race I've ever watched was over at the flagstand. Couldn't quote them because this site sucks. Not sure why It worked this time. Tried multiple times double clicking my ass off. Site software is ancient.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Rulebook says you haven't "finished" the race until you cross under the checkered flag. If scoring loop is 10 foot before flag stand, transponder makes your actual position between the loop and flagstand irrelevant.

What I saw was Rocket1 "finished" (went under flag) 1st but 32 won the race?

I'm in full agreement with the guys saying needs to be a camera triggered say 18" before "finish line". And every race I've ever watched was over at the flagstand. Couldn't quote them because this site sucks. Not sure why It worked this time. Tried multiple times double clicking my ass off. Site software is ancient.

You are correct in your assertion. This would mean 1 won the race. I was answering in response about how to at least make the outcome of the race transparent to a fan. Bad optics are bad for business.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

According to Rick Schwallie, transponders on both cars were located on the left front where the bumper and frame meet (series rule). The scoring loop is at the pole to the left of the flag stand. Story is on DoD

And that is NOT a critical measurement on the car, from the actual nose of the car. It's a general location.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Is that wire under the dirt 90 degree's to the flag stand. What if it's off say 10 degree's ? Your angle watching on tv then becomes suspect. I really doubt any racetrack is 90 degree across from top to bottom for the scoring loop.

[KTMLew]

If that wire under the dirt 90 degree's to the flag stand. What if it's off say 10 degree's ? Your angle watching on tv then becomes suspect. I really doubt any racetrack is 90 degree across from top to bottom for the scoring loop.

They've said scoring loop is on left side of flag stand. Camera view is angled slightly toward entrance of back straight. What I saw on Flo was, let's say 4 foot from "finish line", 32 was in lead/tied with Rocket1. AT flagstand Rocket1 was 30ish inches in lead, But race is "scored" at that 4 foot mark. 32 had 1/2" lead. <all numbers are completely made-up> Except the car numbers...

[Snake X3]

Say what you want about Don but he raised a dang good kid. Hudson is always polite and well mannered.

Indeed. And as long as he stays that way, he'll always be a winner.

[Highside Hustler25]

I must be blind because I scanned the Lucas rulebook multiple times with no luck. But Schwalls says transponder is to be mounted left front corner where bumper meets frame. Series rule.
Maybe they have a top secret rulebook.

[ride height]

I must be blind because I scanned the Lucas rulebook multiple times with no luck. But Schwalls says transponder is to be mounted left front corner where bumper meets frame. Series rule.
Maybe they have a top secret rulebook.

Ha. It could be a deal where it’s covered in driver meeting. They need a definitive “photo finish” undisputed camera shot of a real finish line, marked somehow on a wall or brightly colored stick of some kind etc, or someday they are going to get themselves in a pickle.

[billetbirdcage]

I must be blind because I scanned the Lucas rulebook multiple times with no luck. But Schwalls says transponder is to be mounted left front corner where bumper meets frame. Series rule.
Maybe they have a top secret rulebook.

There are tons of things that aren't in the rules that they enforce and other things they enforce that are done in a different manner or measurement that is written in the rule (especially body stuff). You basically have to go thru tech to find those things out.

[Snake X3]

lurker

Personally, I think they should have awarded both with the win, and added up 1st place and 2nd place monies, then split it equally. I’ve seen tracks do this before.

Short of that, it would have been cool if Bobby and Hud held up the flag together in the podium pics or they both stood on the top step. I didn't think of it until now, so I am sure it would have been tough to come up with on the spur of the moment, but that would have been the ultimate.

[play4kps]

I can honestly say this decision is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen in DLM racing. This is beyond pathetic, and its even worse that people say its where the transponder line is. Why have a stupid start finish line? why have a checkered flag? Why lead us to believe the race ends at the flag stand? So I guess we will NEVER see a photo finish again, it doesn't matter what our eyes see, We are to trust the transponder results, use the transponders during the race, common sense says the winner is who crosses the start-finish line first.

[Highside Hustler25]

Well someone woke up pssed off😄

[Barbecueboy]

We still don’t know who really won…….Tire rule lady hasn’t spoken yet, just sayin.

We normally always wait for the official results at a big race, no big deal……isn’t this exciting????

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

1) wait for guy behind curtain to call when transponder crossed invisible line
2) wait for guy with harbor freight tape measure to see if rear end hangs correctly when chassis is jacked up
3) wait for tire test

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

i noticed the angry guy on here this morning implemented into his post "common sense" lmao!

obviously, we've tossed that out the window in this sport.

[Barbecueboy]

Tire rule, lol…….

[formercrewguy]

Bobby won. End of story.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Bobby won. End of story.

He got the check, end of story.

[play4kps]

I'm not angry, its just foolish. When you allow these things to happen the integrity of the sport is lost. I really don't care who won the race. You race to the finish line and the checkered flag.

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

I'm not angry, its just foolish. When you allow these things to happen the integrity of the sport is lost. I really don't care who won the race. You race to the finish line and the checkered flag.

oh im with you 100%, im sure all are but a few with this. the guy getting the check didnt win tho.

[84wedge]

1) wait for guy behind curtain to call when transponder crossed invisible line2) wait for guy with harbor freight tape measure to see if rear end hangs correctly when chassis is jacked up3) wait for tire testThe ticker across the top of the screen even said Pierce had won, then they immediatly turned it off. As far as i know, any doubts about the finish, the transponder has the final say. I think it was Davenport Speedway with Shep and RTJ a while ago the same deal happened.

[TeamGRT12x]

The two prominent photos shared from the broadcast, and one infield photo, are both so far from where any start finish line would be, none of them could be used to determine the finish. That being said, transponders don't lie, and if there was a huge issue, it could be appealed to Lucas.

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

^ this is a more then likely spot on. in that case, why take photos at the flags stand and call it a photo finish?

[ImCryn2]

I can honestly say this decision is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen in DLM racing. This is beyond pathetic, and its even worse that people say its where the transponder line is. Why have a stupid start finish line? why have a checkered flag? Why lead us to believe the race ends at the flag stand? So I guess we will NEVER see a photo finish again, it doesn't matter what our eyes see, We are to trust the transponder results, use the transponders during the race, common sense says the winner is who crosses the start-finish line first.

The Rocket 1 won a race at Davenport where it appeared they got 2nd, but the transponder said different. Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug. Personally, I want more definitive results than someones blurred vision, the transponder does that.

[billetbirdcage]

The Rocket 1 won a race at Davenport where it appeared they got 2nd, but the transponder said different. Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug. Personally, I want more definitive results than someones blurred vision, the transponder does that.

That's because the transponders where not in the same place on the car, one had the transponder mount farther back then was allowed and the other was as forward as allowed (something to that effect)

That's why they checked transponders on both cars this time. I know once at Magnolia in a heat race coming to the finish for the final transfer spot between 2 cars. You could clearly see the other car beat BMJ to the line by 1/2 a car, Shelton was announcing and said other car gets the transfer as it was clear as day, but then saw the scoring monitor show BMJ and you could clearly see/hear Ben was confused. Well come to find out BMJ's crew put the transponder on the bumper when it was supposed to be on the axle.

Now if this haven't been so clear by eye to everyone that it was wrong, BMJ would have gotten the transfer spot as no one would have looked to see it was in the wrong spot.

I still say like many the transponder is what we should go off of, but there needs to be a clear marking where the transponder line/finish line actually is so the fans know. Either clearly mark the transponder line as the finish or move the transponder line to the actual finish line and be done with it.

[billetbirdcage]

Here is a question that should be asked?

Do all the chassis have the front of the frame where the bumper attaches (where they say the transponder has to go) the same length to the front of the nose? Meaning say a rocket has a shorter frame and a longer bumper vs a longhorn that has a longer frame and shorter bumper?

So do teams need to start making the frames longer and the bumpers shorter? I can see an extended frame and a 4" long bumper coming soon, lol

[Snake X3]

There is plenty of integrity in this sport. You have to look know further than Hudson O'neal and there are plenty of others.

No matter the result, it was a great race. The only reason any of this is even being discussed is because of what a tremendous race this was. Shame someone had to lose. Schwallie has a very tough job. No matter what he did, he was going to lose.

[ride height]

The variables involved should automatically make it clear that transponders should not be used as an absolute finish line end of the race. Mark the finish line so everyone knows and video tape or photograph the end of the race at the official finish line. It’s all pretty basic common sense. You measure a win by the nose of the car, not a transponder further back on the car. What racing fan or contestant ever saw a race where it didn’t end on a defined finish line which is normally directly under the waving checkered flag?

[Highside Hustler25]

If you could just put the cameras directly behind the flagstand, problem solved.
Then again, not all tracks have seating behind the flagstand. Most tracks were built long before they ever thought they'd have cameras filming the race.

[kidrock]

What's wrong with making the finish line in the exact same location of the timing and scoring loop. That way it will make some happy. I didn't even care where the finish line was. It was just a fun race and exciting finish. I hope I see the same thing at the next race. This will really get some going. I read on DoD where a guy said the flag stand is just a decorative spot where the checkered flag is waved in this electronic data racing world.

[Highside Hustler25]

Unfortunately Kid, that last sentence is now reality.

[jog49]

"I highly doubt every car has the transponder mounted exactly the same distance from the tip of the nose."

For 0.002 seconds, the transponder must be PRECISELY the same distance from the nose. Even a fraction of an inch could account for that small amount of time separation. But back in the day when Adam & Eve sponsored the first dirt track race on Earth, there was an imaginary start/finish line at the flag stand. If the second feed of the scoring loop is not on that line, then the transponder ain't worth its weight!

[Snake X3]

"I highly doubt every car has the transponder mounted exactly the same distance from the tip of the nose."

For 0.002 seconds, the transponder must be PRECISELY the same distance from the nose. Even a fraction of an inch could account for that small amount of time separation. But back in the day when Adam & Eve sponsored the first dirt track race on Earth, there was an imaginary start/finish line at the flag stand. If the second feed of the scoring loop is not on that line, then the transponder ain't worth its weight!

Well, you do the best you can. Eventually this was bound to happen, but they'll deal with it. Schwallie is a pro. They'll get it worked out. WoO probably will as well. I'm sure all the tracks are taking notes.

[ride height]

Let’s hope they do get it worked out. I’d think they’d be motivated to have a fool proof way to eliminate any disagreements, thus covering their own butts, and also eliminating the need for a bottle of Excedrin. Yes, the race was a dandy. I’m not sure the real winner was given the awards, but as long as they are moving to fix the issue, that’s all you can ask for. The 1 car was sure cordial about it and didn’t need a waaaambulance. Hats off to both of those drivers. This sport has gotten into stratosphere money to be able to participate in, so let’s please install a real finish line that everyone can see, and use the horse race method to make sure the true first car to the line gets the roses.

[kidrock]

Unfortunately Kid, that last sentence is now reality.

Yes the electronic world has changed racing like everything else in this world.

[GrocMax]

At 100MPH .002 seconds is 3.52 inches. There ain't a transponder cable anywhere that's perfectly perpendicular to the track. They move around even if they were initially installed by a pro surveyor with high end precision GPS. Most of them are installed by eyeball and hand and NEVER re-installed or re-surveyed until they fail. Can't find the rule for F1, but NASCRAP reverts to a photo finish when its that close. And it's the nose. Horse/dog racing, Indy, pretty much all track and field athletics, etc. All Photo. Transponders DO lie, we've all seen it, it's rare, but it happens.

[dirtcrazy4u]

When will the flagman be replaced by a monkey is what I want to no ? Electronic this electronic that, horsesh*t. The guy that crosses under the checkered flag in front wins, period. Great finish to that race, the nose in front wins. That green, red and yellow light bulb can be activated by anyone.

I was at a race where the press box was directly behind the flagstand, this kid they had up there spent more time looking into the press box than watching what was going on on-track. He would literally watch behind him and wave the green when he was signaled to. By the way, this was at a woo slm event.

[GrocMax]

LIDAR. Hell, drone footage would do just fine.

[Barbecueboy]

So they can string a well identified wire, lights etc over wherever this imaginary plane they want to call the finish line is about 15 feet off the ground over the track, mount a camera at an angle to capture it from a Birds Eye view and use that as the finish line marker.

I’m great with the transponders calling just because I am….but if we need video proof to please folks string something like that up and announce at the meeting where it is in case there is a close call.

The series could probably bring something like that around with them, they could stuff the poles and wires into the same bag they have their victory lane banners etc…….again I’m good with the transponder call, but some aren’t and since there is no painted finish line on a dirt track stringing it from above would be cheap and fairly easy?

[Mantis]

They had a cone placed at the transponder line last night at Davenport.

Not sure what that accomplished but that is the first time I've seen the line marked at a track.

[Umpdirt1]

They had a cone placed at the transponder line last night at Davenport.Not sure what that accomplished but that is the first time I've seen the line marked at a track.If Essex didn't point out the cone 100 times, good ole Lucas Oil Makin it appear they are proactive, I call bullsh*t, it was totally reactive. It's call covering there behind.

[MEE]

You start going by the nose and the noise pieces will get longer and longer.

[Highside Hustler25]

Maybe they should try string.

[plunks7]

A laser light, Just like your garage door!!!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You start going by the nose and the noise pieces will get longer and longer.

That's already a performance advantage if not checked.

[kidrock]

If Essex didn't point out the cone 100 times, good ole Lucas Oil Makin it appear they are proactive, I call bullsh*t, it was totally reactive. It's call covering there behind.

I don't know why they would need to cover their behinds. What did they do wrong?

[kidrock]

Maybe they should try string.

lmao.............................................. ...............

[kidrock]

They had a cone placed at the transponder line last night at Davenport.

Not sure what that accomplished but that is the first time I've seen the line marked at a track.

To make some fans happy

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't know why they would need to cover their behinds. What did they do wrong?

Fail to properly address a close finish before it happened.

[mskdorf]

Didn’t this same thing happen at Florence a few years ago with Josh Rice and EPJ? I think it may have been the Latham race. Looked like Rice won but EPJ got the win.

[84wedge]

If Essex didn't point out the cone 100 times, good ole Lucas Oil Makin it appear they are proactive, I call bullsh*t, it was totally reactive. It's call covering there behind.They're as proactive as NASA was before Challenger and Columbia exploded.

[kidrock]

Fail to properly address a close finish before it happened.

So are you saying the drivers have never been told how they would determine a winner under these circumstances?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So are you saying the drivers have never been told how they would determine a winner under these circumstances?

Their process is horribly flawed. It became too obvious, finally. They might as well flip a coin if the finish is within .008 second.

Just because you apply computing to something, that alone does nothing to improve accuracy or integrity to the process. We've all heard of garbage in, garbage out.

[kidrock]

Their process is horribly flawed. It became too obvious, finally. They might as well flip a coin if the finish is within .008 second.

Just because you apply computing to something, that alone does nothing to improve accuracy or integrity to the process. We've all heard of garbage in, garbage out.

Ok but it's not like they did something nefarious.

I'm more curious did the drivers know how a race would be determined if that situation ever came up and if they did that's really how that matters. I mean it's their money on the line and some do this for a living.

[jog49]

But . . . . if the scoring loop is not buried in exactly the right place . . . . . . . the only visual the drivers have is the flag stand and the flagman.

[Josh Bayko]

It’s highly unlikely that any of these scoring loops at dirt tracks are at an exact 90 degree angle across the track. Any deviation from that is why these close finishes often have the wrong actual winner.

[jog49]

Yep! I'm surprised the deer hunting crowd hasn't advocated for a trail cam yet.

[Highside Hustler25]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This !!!!!

[TS FAN]

At the end of the day, all I can say is great race. Two outstanding drivers put on a show. My bottom line would be what Hudson said. He slipped on the last lap and let Bobby get to him and that is what happened. Not that Hudson wasn't upset losing the race.

It went from a clear win to almost a coin flip. Congrats again to both drivers who are at the top of the sport along with JD, and Ricky.

[jog49]

"What's wrong with making the finish line in the exact same location of the timing and scoring loop."

Apparently, that's where it was, and in this day of technology, it's just plain stupid.

Why not put the timing and scoring loop at the finish line that has been used since the beginning of time? The official start of a race is at the flag so why isn't the finish of a race at the same place? What other form of racing, from point A to point B uses a transponder to determine a winner? NASA isn't looking to hire the people who made this decision and the rumor mill says the guy that buried the scoring loop was high as a kite!

[mnwriter]

So here is part of the equation none of you think about obviously.

If you race more than one class of cars each style of car has the transponder in a different position based on the series/sanction rules. The track in question typically has the modified as their main class. Maybe they figured the distance of standard mounting location of the transponder to the flag stand so the nose of the car crosse the flag stand at the same time as the transponder.

Plus even though they dictate location of transponders on all cars for the late models per Lucas rule book I would bet it doesn’t indicate tip of nose to transponder distance so if you look at photos O’Neils nose to front tire looks longer than pierce etc. they are all built different so the transponder is actually the best way to handle the scoring.

Knowing how the connections are in waterproof boxes for the loop to the scoring tower you don’t have room at the cemented in flag stands at most tracks to be able to put the loop in the same place as the stand anyway so most tracks found what they figured would be the best average distance for their classes to put the loop so it was close to triggering as the cars crossed the finish line.

[jog49]

You made every bit of that story up, didn't you?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Mnwriter,

You know what's in the Lucas rules? Tip of nose from front wheel center. You know why? That is a performance advantage. You know what isn't in the rules? Transponder location. It's a verbally given general location on the chassis that isn't in exactly the same point on all cars when referencing the tires or any other part of concern.

[over4T]

We got bit this past weekend by the transponder location. Our touring Pro Stock group is like most in that location is vague. In our qualifier we took 4th according to the transponder and 5th by less than O'Neal did over Pierce. Competition director came over and talked to both of us after we scaled to work things out with us and our friend. We agreed to move our transponder back a few inches and took the 5th. No big deal? Well our group takes top 4 from 2 heats and complete redraw for those 8 for the main. Guy we "beat" drew a 3 and ended up finishing a strong second. We started 9th and pretty much stayed back there until the last corner when we got banged for 11th. Didn't exactly make us happy but we're just hobby racers, If we did it to put meat on the table I'd feel different.

[Jim11h]

This is why we'll eventually see camera's calling balls and strikes. Things pretty dead when got 7 pages for this nonsense. Most tracks start finish line is one side or other of flag stand and been this way for decades. Scoring tower needs direct sight of line to score close races back before we allowed technology to over take. I will say the most ironic thing of all this is almost every one was swinging from lucas short hairs and now they're doing an about-face. If the rocket would of won all the longhorn chassis hoes would be squealing foul, but then again it was pierce so we see their own division and attack of transponder that they'll download app and watch for results as gospel on other days ending in Y

[over4T]

Also broke a pretty nice little streak we had going; two wins and 5 other top threes in our last 7 races at tracks in 3 states. Time to get with it and start on another streak hopefully. The eternal optimism of racers in an often frustrating sport. Over 60 years doing this and it never gets any easier.

[foxfire2dirtracing]

Jim11h

^^^^
Couldn’t agree with you more-spot on.
7 pages and the only team effected was Rocket1- have they complained?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

This is why we'll eventually see camera's calling balls and strikes. Things pretty dead when got 7 pages for this nonsense. Most tracks start finish line is one side or other of flag stand and been this way for decades. Scoring tower needs direct sight of line to score close races back before we allowed technology to over take. I will say the most ironic thing of all this is almost every one was swinging from lucas short hairs and now they're doing an about-face. If the rocket would of won all the longhorn chassis hoes would be squealing foul, but then again it was pierce so we see their own division and attack of transponder that they'll download app and watch for results as gospel on other days ending in Y

You certainly aren't speaking about my perspective. But, anytime we paint with a wide brush, we are bound to get outside the lines. The issue is they do it differently than races you bet on and differently than NASCAR does it, and differently than anyone of ordinary knowledge would perceive it should be done.

They assume everything that has to be setup perfectly for their method to work, is setup perfectly. We know that is far from the case, and why their method is not commonly used outside of our often-misguided sport.

[Pennsboro32]

It's a good thing you can't legally bet on DLM racing.

[Jim11h]

Let's be realistic, yes it's the 2000s and everyone thinks everything should be perfect, but it clearly isn't. It was a great race and for that everyone should be thankful but they can't be. Hundreds of millions in other sports are decided by humans which we know make errors and in some cases can be bought. Our podunk system works pretty good for amt invested. Boxing judged by 3 people for 10s of millions if not a two or ko. Football by referee's determining rule of a catch, etc........gotta look at broad spectrum

[Buford.Justice]

What's to stop an illegal transponder from being activated before the finish line at the front of the car if it's hidden well and then changed back to the legal trans after the race with a hidden switch.

Or even a remote not even on the car?

What do you think Masters?

Take note innovators!

[cjsracing]

What's to stop an illegal transponder from being activated before the finish line at the front of the car if it's hidden well and then changed back to the legal trans after the race with a hidden switch.

Or even a remote not even on the car?

What do you think Masters?

Take note innovators!

Each transponder has a unique identifying number, that number is logged with the sanctioning body.

[billetbirdcage]

What's to stop an illegal transponder from being activated before the finish line at the front of the car if it's hidden well and then changed back to the legal trans after the race with a hidden switch.

Or even a remote not even on the car?

What do you think Masters?

Take note innovators!


Cheating a transponder is completely possible as I know it has been tried at the highest level of asphalt racing but while semi easy to do, there is one catch or problem. While I won't say how it is done, lets just say it's easy to mess up and have your car 3 seconds faster then anyone (yes it was done on a very large track like Daytona where lap times are more like a minute).

Using it for finish would be crazy and easily caught by the eye, however using it for qualifying could be gotten away with, if you don't overly reduce your lap time.

[Barbecueboy]

What's to stop an illegal transponder from being activated before the finish line at the front of the car if it's hidden well and then changed back to the legal trans after the race with a hidden switch.

Or even a remote not even on the car?

What do you think Masters?

Take note innovators!

People that dedicated to cheating normally aren’t at the front enough for a transponder to be necessary to record any wins……

[Buford.Justice]

Well, hopefully not,for sure.

As far as the ID number mentioned above. The one issued to the car would have the corret ID, But I'm talking about a hidden one they would not find.

[Buford.Justice]

If caught doing this it sure would be a black eye for driver and team that might be hard to get rid of and they would not be popular with fans and drivers. A price to pay that hopefully keeps many from even trying to cheat.

[jog49]

"What's to stop an illegal transponder from being activated before the finish line at the front of the car if it's hidden well and then changed back to the legal trans after the race with a hidden switch."

Are you suggesting Smokey Yunick has risen from the dead and is now working in dirt SLM racing?

[james777777]

What's to stop an illegal transponder from being activated before the finish line at the front of the car if it's hidden well and then changed back to the legal trans after the race with a hidden switch.Or even a remote not even on the car?What do you think Masters?Take note innovators!This may have more merit qualifying. Good idea.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

Barbeque,

Location of the two points is unimportant during qualifying. We are just seeing who did a lap the fastest. It electronically starts and stops the stopwatch, if you will. It might be starting and stopping at a point that's maybe a foot off the line, but it's not likely to really impact the result. If it does, that fact is imperceptible to us.

A race is ended when a nose breaks a plane. Or at least that's what I have been conditioned to understand.

It's like how NASCAR and Indycar use "Alternate" start/finish lines in qualifying, that ends the lap early so they can go down pit road immediately. In qualifying it's about how long it takes you to make a full lap of the track. You can score that anywhere.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

The biggest problem here is that this is dirt. All forms of asphalt racing can have a line across the track. It's pretty simple. Breaking that plane first is a win. For a dirt track photo finish to be accurate, you have to have 2 points. (It takes 2 to make a line). These have to be identified if you hope to have any visual way to determine a winner. You can't use the flagman or flagstand. For 1, is it the actual guy waving the flag, is it a certain point of the flagstand, front edge, a post under it, etc. The simplest solution would be one that has been mentioned. You have a wire/cable running across the track at top of the catch fence or so. You have a stationary camera directed right along that line. If you don't have a physical wire, you have a camera mounted at point A, and line drawn on the wall, pole in the ground, etc to mark point B. The first car to break that plane wins. Anything else, like transponders is open to slight difference. I think someone mentioned one car being more sideways than another, etc. The outrageous example would be a car spinning across the start finish line. He'd have to be nearly a car length ahead of second to be declared the winner based solely on transponders (and I realize this is outlandish).

[jog49]

Sort of like someone introduced transponders to dirt track racing, without the instruction book, and the management did not know how to use them!

[Highside Hustler25]

As long as they have been in use, I'm surprised the chassis manufacturers haven't come up with a universal mounting spot on a lateral piece of tubing.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

As long as they have been in use, I'm surprised the chassis manufacturers haven't come up with a universal mounting spot on a lateral piece of tubing.

Then it would just get cheated.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Huh, remember when it was the first car under the flagman's checkered flag ? No poll 5 ft before or after the flag. I guess if someone in the booth wanted a particular driver/car to win they could. Technology, blah.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

Huh, remember when it was the first car under the flagman's checkered flag ? No poll 5 ft before or after the flag. I guess if someone in the booth wanted a particular driver/car to win they could. Technology, blah.

But where? Edge of stand? at the flagman himself? When cars are that close, you HAVE to have some definitive plane that has be broken. In asphalt racing it's the line painted on the track. Since dirt tracks can't do this, there has to be an objective point that is the finish line.

[Barbecueboy]

The lady in the foothills of NC makes the official call about a week later……what’s all this talk of an official finish the night of the race??

[Buford.Justice]

Wherever the line is buried under the dirt, the finish line is about 8 feet past that point. The line is usually ran inside a PVC pipe and buried about a foot or even less under the dirt.

So one can't really see or know where that is unless they ask the propmoter or track official, or a series official when they are at the track with one of their events.

Or at least that was how it was a few years ago. There may be changes since then.

[Billy_the_kid]

Its called technology. like it or not, its about the only way to really decide a close race. regardless of where it lies on the track. Drivers know this. Drivers have accepted it and moved on, 4m hasnt. If you didnt have it you would still have the exact same arguement.

[kidrock]

Its called technology. like it or not, its about the only way to really decide a close race. regardless of where it lies on the track. Drivers know this. Drivers have accepted it and moved on, 4m hasnt. If you didnt have it you would still have the exact same arguement.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

i see russ is back under his other name lol.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Its called technology. like it or not, its about the only way to really decide a close race. regardless of where it lies on the track. Drivers know this. Drivers have accepted it and moved on, 4m hasnt. If you didnt have it you would still have the exact same arguement.

You are 100% incorrect. Without proper up front preparation the accuracy is horrible compared to visual means.

[kidrock]

I'm curious has any of the drivers discussed this topic. I would be interested in what they have to say because really that's all that matters

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I'm curious has any of the drivers discussed this topic. I would be interested in what they have to say because really that's all that matters

Drivers have a special consideration vs other team members? I can't possibly agree with that either. Then I assume you will also tell me only about 10 of those drivers matter and all the other drivers who suffer from copycat procedures across the country don't matter either. Some times Lucas and Woo actually apply pressure to other regional series to go along with them. Sometimes it just happens because it's easy to copy and paste. In either case, we get forced to deal with their reactionary procedures, politics, and general failure.

Tim McCreadie fails to separate the effects of the droop rule on the field vs just his own car.

I wouldn't go to Charlie Swartz to get a vasectomy.

I wouldn't expect Brandon Sheppard to do the math and come up with all the ways a transponder can and often does declare the wrong winner. He's good manipulating pedals and a steering wheel. He may be good at physics and math, but I wouldn't expect it.

[GrocMax]

Name ONE big money race series that doesn't revert to a 'photo finish'. F1? NASCRAP? Dog or Horse racing? World Rally? Pretty much anything Track and Field or winter sports aka Olympics? Name one.

[GrocMax]

https://youtu.be/PbgwSzgQqGY?t=236 Very similar to the Lucas race in question. Nobody argued about the call.

[kidrock]

Drivers have a special consideration vs other team members? I can't possibly agree with that either. Then I assume you will also tell me only about 10 of those drivers matter and all the other drivers who suffer from copycat procedures across the country don't matter either. Some times Lucas and Woo actually apply pressure to other regional series to go along with them. Sometimes it just happens because it's easy to copy and paste. In either case, we get forced to deal with their reactionary procedures, politics, and general failure.

Tim McCreadie fails to separate the effects of the droop rule on the field vs just his own car.

I wouldn't go to Charlie Swartz to get a vasectomy.

I wouldn't expect Brandon Sheppard to do the math and come up with all the ways a transponder can and often does declare the wrong winner. He's good manipulating pedals and a steering wheel. He may be good at physics and math, but I wouldn't expect it.

You make a good point and I do apologize that I wasn't more specific and included the whole team but, I will say it again as long as the team knows how they determine a winner that's all that matters. Any team that enters the race is important not just the top tier teams.

[Raceready]

Now that Pierce beat young Huddy Oneal again in a close finish, could we add another 9 pages to this thread ? ?

[SLlDlNG SIDEWAYS]

Now that Pierce beat young Huddy Oneal again in a close finish, could we add another 9 pages to this thread ? ?

We could, that what you want?