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What are your theories/thoughts on front tire grooving? (Especially from drivers). Do you feel a difference when cutting them angled compared to a straight block tread? It gives us a lot more flexibility to cut them straight, so we can use the same tires front and left rear, even if just for spares, but if you can truly feel a drastic difference turning the car it's worth the few extra dollars. Thoughts?
ive been wondering the same thing. i see alot of guys have went back to grooving the rf in blocks instead of angles or circumferential grooves
Tires are undoubtedly my weakest area, and there are quite a few, but I'm never short of thinking about things. So, in my experience I have had the best luck with circumference grooves on the fronts because the greatest need I have from my front tires are their ability to turn (left and right, not rotationally). I see guys groove at an angle on the front and I'm not sure why. I could see it to help maintain grip when braking, but if your locking up the front wheels you're either on asphalt, have way too much front brake, or something else.
Which is also why I groove my LR straight across, because my greatest need from it is forward drive (yes, I know there are side loads as well, evident by the wear pattern, but I'm hoping to gain the most from it in driving the car forward). My RR I groove across in the middle three rows (LM tires), and circumference on the inner and outer two rows (technically columns, depending on how you're viewing the tread pattern, but moving on...). I do that because I need the RR for both side bite and forward drive. And, to be honest, because I once got a used tire from Shannon Babb and that's how he had it grooved (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!).
I am looking forward to the days of no groove/no sipe because I am mainly a one man band and I just don't know enough about tires for anything I do to be an advantage. Just my "thoughts!"
I am torn on the no groove no sipe rule Jet. I raced mods in the early 2000's and we had that rule then to save money we were allowed to cut the tires, and we got more races out of them. Now we are going back, my worry is will they just seal over quickly and turn to junk after one or two runs max?
The latter is how it will roll in most cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroracing
Agreed. A no groove no sipe rule will cost racers money in the long run. Just like most rules made under the guise of cost-savings do. A properly grooved and siped tire is more manageable on and off the track. Yes, tire grooving and siping is time consuming. I do all of my tires by myself so I get it. It is what it is. Racing is a time consuming hobby if you want to be up front.
Matt49, you could not have said it any better.
To answer the OP's original question: No, I wouldn't groove or sipe the rear tires the same as the front so I could use them anywhere. Now, can you? Sure, but you are leaving some speed on the table. However do to budget constraints, you are likely to have to not groove tires optimal for every situation just due to cost so you can make the tire live longer or to use another time or track.
Some times those tires may not be all that different cutting wise, but most of the time they likely are. Typically a RR isn't cut the same as a LR or a RF. Like I said sometimes it boils down to how much you can afford to spend and if tires are more a one time use to you.
The big debate will be is it worth it or is there really that much speed in cutting the tire? IMO, if you siping your RF similar to your RR then that is a yes to me as you're losing out on a fair amount of adhesion in the RF as a general statement.
Thank you. I guess I'm trying to visualize the tire load directions and groove patterns and have a couple different theories. With a typical (angled grooves) steer tire, the tire will follow the curve of the track, but the forces will be pushing out toward the wall, so those angled cuts would be perpendicular to the angle of the tire load. With a block cut, and the same loads, the force would be more on the corners of the blocks. In my head I'm trying to decide if that's better or worse. Just seeing if any drivers have compared in the real world and noticed a real difference. If I'm sounding confused, I apologize. It's one of those things that's easy to visualize but hard to explain without doodling on a piece of paper while I'm explaining it to someone. Thank you for the input.
I have seen so many different patterns win races. With no test evidence, I am uncertain how important it is. I feel Billet is right that some are certainly better than others for certain spots on the car.
Agree 100%.....whats your opinion on tires like a d21, that already has a bunch of different grooving patterns?Quote:
Originally Posted by billetbirdcage
I should have been clearer: I was talking more about how many cuts or the size of the cuts and more importantly Sipes, then I was about the direction of the cuts.
On the direction of the cuts, it's highly debatable if there is really that much difference in a perpendicular cut across the tire vs an angled cut at least when dealing with a hard packed or hard slick surface. However is it's heavy and the tire is working "IN" the surface, then it likely has a bigger effect, but still debatable.
Keep in mind, that groove direction can also effect the self cleaning of the groove also so that can come into play on soft tires and tracks more then the typical hard tires on a hard surface that is working on surface contact and not so much off embedding into the surface.
IMO, a tire working "IN" the surface is cut completely different then one working "ON" the surface. Now this might be very subtle like cut width, angles, etc to some people but others might call this completely different.
What's a D21? they still make those, I thought that was just a crate tire now, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by a25rjr
LOL.....its not much of one, but in my area you either run a d21 or d55. (llm)Quote:
Originally Posted by billetbirdcage
D21's are the crate tires that typically are run in NeSmith.
The crate 21's are cut totally different than the d21s.