Bob Bolles/Magazine articles

So, I have been struggling with my car owner about a few things..mainly that he insists on reading articles in Circle Track and Stock Car Racing magazines that tend to contradict some of the "boots on the ground" advice and concepts found here. Granted, he lets me set up the car and has seen that what I have learned here and on Afco chassis adjustment sheets, Steve Smith's books, etc has worked and moved us towards a comfortable setup. But, sometimes our debates get somewhat heated because he reads the articles and interprets things his way, and I explain the physics and concepts behind the concepts I am learning, and gets pretty interesting.

Many of the articles he reads are written by Bob Bolles. Is he a four-bar guru or even a dirt guru?

A few examples of concepts we have discussed:

He has read that on banked tracks (above 12*), you need a stiffer RF spring than LF!!!! I have not once seen a DLM or a setup sheet that makes this recommendation, nor has anyone here ever made that suggestion. I even described that last year we started with a 500LF, 450RF and the car would NOT turn until we dropped to a 400 RF...

He has also read that it is imperative that the right side tires must be in line. Not just as a tool for squaring the rear end, but for proper handling. I am fully aware of the handling changes that occur from moving rear ends to the right and left. Bolles claims that if the RR is inside the car will push, and the car will be loose if the RR is outside, and that this should be tuned with wheel spacers. I explained that I have not yet seen one car on the track with RS tires in line..and have only seen one or two guys run a spacer, and that was on the left side!

I'm not looking for answers to these specific questions per se, but just want to know why the disconnect between printed material and boots on the ground sometimes!

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Originally Posted by dfhotlm33c

So, I have been struggling with my car owner about a few things..mainly that he insists on reading articles in Circle Track and Stock Car Racing magazines that tend to contradict some of the "boots on the ground" advice and concepts found here. Granted, he lets me set up the car and has seen that what I have learned here and on Afco chassis adjustment sheets, Steve Smith's books, etc has worked and moved us towards a comfortable setup. But, sometimes our debates get somewhat heated because he reads the articles and interprets things his way, and I explain the physics and concepts behind the concepts I am learning, and gets pretty interesting.

Many of the articles he reads are written by Bob Bolles. Is he a four-bar guru or even a dirt guru?

A few examples of concepts we have discussed:

He has read that on banked tracks (above 12*), you need a stiffer RF spring than LF!!!! I have not once seen a DLM or a setup sheet that makes this recommendation, nor has anyone here ever made that suggestion. I even described that last year we started with a 500LF, 450RF and the car would NOT turn until we dropped to a 400 RF...

He has also read that it is imperative that the right side tires must be in line. Not just as a tool for squaring the rear end, but for proper handling. I am fully aware of the handling changes that occur from moving rear ends to the right and left. Bolles claims that if the RR is inside the car will push, and the car will be loose if the RR is outside, and that this should be tuned with wheel spacers. I explained that I have not yet seen one car on the track with RS tires in line..and have only seen one or two guys run a spacer, and that was on the left side!

I'm not looking for answers to these specific questions per se, but just want to know why the disconnect between printed material and boots on the ground sometimes!

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Thats the problem with magazine articles. While some of them might be good, others are not. He has a bully pulpit, and everyone thinks because it is in Circle Track Mag it is the gospel. He might know what he is talking about on asphalt, but his dirt knowledge is suspect. It sells a lot of software for him though.I would say that the best info comes from the chassis manufacturer. If everyone that wins has the right rear inside the RF it probably is the way to go.

Bob Bolles' knowledge, dirt or asphalt is suspect. He will tell you in an article of circle track that there is no way that an asphalt late model running a big bar soft spring set up will be competitive with a car running a conventional type set up over a 100 lap race. But he has a book out about how to apply big bar soft spring set ups and make them work. I have been at a couple of different dirt tracks when they were doing the 02 Rayburn project car, they couldn't even make the shows, he claims to have been an integral part of coming up with a Rayburn set up that Billy Moyer won the World 100 with(highly doubt that one too). In my opinion Bob Bolles' theories do not match much in the way of application at a race track. He writes articles that sound good but I don't think they transfer in terms of making your car better. He can baffle people with his discussions about roll center this and moment center that but when you are done reading the article you can't figure out whether to scratch your watch or wind your a$$. And if you ask any chassis builder dirt or asphalt, the RR must track inside of the RF for a car to get around a corner.

after 5 years of reading the same 2-3 articals on dlm set up,..i cancelled my subscription,...for 5 years all thayd print was moment center,moment center,moment center!! but where readers ask questions he dosent seem to have a clue where this moment center should be...even seen him say its location is driver preference...ive always thought if its that important,..BWRC,rockett,mastersbuilt ect ect would have this covered already...

If you look around at what some well educated engineers have to say about the subject, they will tell you that the instant center, or the geometric roll center at that instant in time, has little value. Work with camber gain and upper and lower control arm angles seem to fall into place. Now a force based analysis would have merit, but it is a heck of a lot more complicated.

One problem I find with his articles is that all of his "balanced" setup info says that a balanced setup is good on long runs or 50-100 lap races where you need prolonged consistency in the car, most of us dirt guys running saturday night are running 20-30 laps at weekly shows, at least around mn where im from, so if a "jackrabbit" setup as he refers to it is better for 20-25 laps, thats the setup i want, the fastest for the laps im going to run

I find a big gap between the real world and what is published, and republished,and republished, in that magazine.

I agree that some of the things he says in his articles don't apply in the real dirt world.

However, I have had great success with his software. I have used it on everything from a hobby stock to a mini cup asphalt car. One car that comes to mind was a three quarter scale dlm.It was built on a garage floor with no jig. Using Bolles software and (a foot of 3/4 tubing), that car has not been beaten yet and that was two years ago.

Im sure there are more sophisticated software available, but his concepts of matching roll angles has worked on every type of car I have used it on.

Those guys have been printing the same basic articles with the same diagrams for about a decade now. I used to read it regularly but now it gets just a quick flip-through.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dfhotlm33c

So, I have been struggling with my car owner about a few things..mainly that he insists on reading articles in Circle Track and Stock Car Racing magazines that tend to contradict some of the "boots on the ground" advice and concepts found here. Granted, he lets me set up the car and has seen that what I have learned here and on Afco chassis adjustment sheets, Steve Smith's books, etc has worked and moved us towards a comfortable setup. But, sometimes our debates get somewhat heated because he reads the articles and interprets things his way, and I explain the physics and concepts behind the concepts I am learning, and gets pretty interesting.

Many of the articles he reads are written by Bob Bolles. Is he a four-bar guru or even a dirt guru?

A few examples of concepts we have discussed:

He has read that on banked tracks (above 12*), you need a stiffer RF spring than LF!!!! I have not once seen a DLM or a setup sheet that makes this recommendation, nor has anyone here ever made that suggestion. I even described that last year we started with a 500LF, 450RF and the car would NOT turn until we dropped to a 400 RF...

He has also read that it is imperative that the right side tires must be in line. Not just as a tool for squaring the rear end, but for proper handling. I am fully aware of the handling changes that occur from moving rear ends to the right and left. Bolles claims that if the RR is inside the car will push, and the car will be loose if the RR is outside, and that this should be tuned with wheel spacers. I explained that I have not yet seen one car on the track with RS tires in line..and have only seen one or two guys run a spacer, and that was on the left side!

I'm not looking for answers to these specific questions per se, but just want to know why the disconnect between printed material and boots on the ground sometimes!

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I agree with you on that a large part of Bob's info is not exactly DLM applicable and taking credit for the 98' Moyer World 100 win is a being a little too self complementing. Rayburn was already utilizing a lot of what Bob claims to have suggested, but he may have helped fine tune the setup. As to the RS tires lining up that was the belief/trend way way back, but over time DLM racers learned they could gain performance by tucking in the RR. Yes it does works, but I won't say its the only way to go. Even though I don't hold Bob's ideas or conclusions up as gospel, I do think dirt racers can get narrow minded and a little too, "Monkey See, Monkey Do" about how we approach things. There use to be more creativity in DLM car designs and people tried different things, thought for themselves. Nowadays everybody seems content to just go buy whatever the guy next to him runs and scoff at anyone considering a different approach. Anyway I see what you mean by his articles being retreads, but I do like to refer back to some of them just to shake my thinking and see if there might be another way to achieve something, like more side bite... Its funny/sad what gets written off as non-competitive, I've been helping a guy over the web in Austrailia that runs a mono/coil car in V8 Super Sedans(very similar to our DLM's) for the past 2 seasons and he won the state championship series this season running against a whole host of different stuff, 4 links, 3 links, Swing Arms and the lot, he beat them all and he runs out of his own pocket.

I'll bet 99% of racers believe nothing could ever surpass a "J-Bar" for side bite. Is it the pinnacle? Have we reached the end of DLM evolution, is it either a 4-Bar car "On The Hook" with a J-Bar or it won't work?

Just food for thought...

I do believe his theory about lining up the right side tires is pretty close ... as long as you think about your car in a dynamic state.

If you jack up your left rear so it roll steers and pulls the rear end left at the same time ... then turn your front tires so they point in the same direction as the rear end ... you may find that the right side tires do line up.

Or get reasonably close ... the best we can figure in a garage without a pull down rig.

This is 4-bar ... j-bar stuff.

Swing arm stuff I think you do need to get the right rear in from the right front just to make up for the lack of kinematic side bite.

All things are a balance.

Keep experimenting to find that balance for your car.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that thinks bob bolles is full of it.back quite a few years ago they had Dale Mcdowll do a few articals on brake systems and a couple other articals.thats the guy's I would rather do the dirt articals the guy's that are out doing it and doing well at it.

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Originally Posted by Ltemodel

I do believe his theory about lining up the right side tires is pretty close ... as long as you think about your car in a dynamic state.

If you jack up your left rear so it roll steers and pulls the rear end left at the same time ... then turn your front tires so they point in the same direction as the rear end ... you may find that the right side tires do line up.

Or get reasonably close ... the best we can figure in a garage without a pull down rig.

This is 4-bar ... j-bar stuff.

Swing arm stuff I think you do need to get the right rear in from the right front just to make up for the lack of kinematic side bite.

All things are a balance.

Keep experimenting to find that balance for your car.

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Exacta-Mundo!