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thinking about getting into this class how much cheating is going on with the engines? the reason i ask is the price from GM for a short block is cheaper than lots of motors i see for sale on other sites, one guy was asking $8000 just as it comes from GM he just got back from a engine builder that had the legal seal, and he isn't the only one i've seen lots of others, how is this can someone explain? makes me think twice about getting into this class. thanks
I wrote a nice long response, but of course it was deleted before it was posted. So I will keep it short.
In short the cheating is rampant, but it's legal cheating as odd as that sounds. We all know whatever you race you are racing money. When someone can buy an "affordable" engine and have it shipped directly to a rebuilder for a freshen, while legal seems a bit illicit. That's not the right word, shady, working at the edges. Again all completely legal, but this and the trick parts it takes a lot to run with folks that are serious about it. Since they've created a new 602 budget class it will soon be unaffordable as well.
My advise and I wish I'd taken it, would be buy a ct525 and run with the supers and have fun. I think you can buy a new 525 with components cheaper than you can get to a competitive point with a 604.
This is a loaded question. Everyone who is not winning thinks everyone else is cheating. Is there cheating going on? Of coarse has been since the first rule book for racing was written. In most series cheating within the bolts is a pretty hefty penalty for the driver and an engine builder. You can go the blueprinted route for like you said $8000 or right out of the crate for around $6000. In the end it will come down to your car not the motor. Crate racing is like plate racing in karts. Your car better roll the center very well or you are gonna get worn out.
There were big money National crate races won on Gm sealed motors straight from the dealership last year. Don't get sold on the blue printing hype.Quote:
Originally Posted by hipower17
Granted I don't keep up with national crate racing so I'm at a complete disadvantage, but who won using a straight from GM engine? Also how do you know it was untouched? I know the selling point is factory sealed, so it's on every press release but that doesn't mean factory sealed. Really you speak with a sense of authority so I trust what you say, I just see things from a local level.Quote:
Originally Posted by GRT62
Scott Dedweilder won a Ne Smith touring series race at Magnolia Speedway last year the series official along with Scott said the engine had came form the dealership and had GM bolts in it. And Im pretty sure Rambo Franklins engine that he won the 15k Fast trak world championship at VMS was GM sealed. Rambos engine was tore down after the race and deemed legal
Well that is good to know, and there were probably more. Maybe the series should publish the data but you have two major series that have what, 30 or more major events. So for 60 events a stock 604 may have won 10. It's just conjecture on my part, maybe the data is out there and the stock 604 won the majority of events.
For the OP, just consider what you're frustrated with now while racing and go into it with eyes open.
at these major events aren't all engines torn down for inspection, but what i've
seen at the local level you don't see a lot of tech on the engines.
A guy that wins regularly at our track lost a Hendren engine one weekend and bought a motor from the local GM dealer, dropped in and won the first weekend out with it.
The rumors and speculation of cheating in crate racing are grossly exaggerated. Two types of people usually spread and expand on these stories: 1) People racing crates that are getting their asses handed to them every week because they can't drive or can't setup a car and 2) People that dislike crate racing in general for a long list of reason...one of which is typically sighting rampant cheating.
I'm convinced, some guy that wins regularly still wins. Looking at the rules below I wonder why they no longer allow those seals, did they forget how to make the color blue? To the OP back on topic, if you're going to buy used make sure it has the proper seals and verify with the rebuilder it is what the seller says it is. If you want to buy new and be competitive in crates just be prepared for the cost
SEALS NOT ALLOWED ARE: NO RM BOLTS, NO GEN. I (SILVER) OR NO GEN. II (BLUE) CABLE SEALS 2015 FORWARD. TO COMPETE WITH ANY OTHER SEALING SYSTEM CONTACT CRATE RACIN USA FOR APPROVAL. CRATE ENGINES MUST NOT BE ALTERED, MODIFIED OR CHANGED FROM FACTORY SPECS.
Ar there box stock motors out there, yes. Are there cheater motors out there, yes. (usually noticeable on fair restarts) Are there maximized legal motors out there, yes. Which is fastest, the one that carries more speed thru the center of the corner consistantly. From my experience most Saturday night supers enter/exit the corner faster, crates are faster thru the center, in less than optimum track conditions.
Still yet a cheated up or blueprinted crate is 20-30k less than a super motor through a name brand builder so you are still somewhat saving money. I know cheating is a no no, just trying to put the cost savings for the class in perspective.
Just from my experience from running crates the past 3 years, many of the ones that especially run in the sanctioned races in our area (East TN) seem to be mostly within the rules. I'm sure some have cheated up motors, but I think it's far and few between. Usually the best drivers still rise to the top no matter what motor they got in there.
If the gain some people say a blue printed motor is worth (20 HP) is true, why would that even be an advantage? I have seen crate cars outrun 800 HP supers on the right track. Wouldn't 400 HP more be better than 20 hp more ?