I am starting to think you guys are talking about the Skoal Bandit --Harry Gant
If so that guy was awesome as was that era of cup racing
Brad
www.race-1.com
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I am starting to think you guys are talking about the Skoal Bandit --Harry Gant
If so that guy was awesome as was that era of cup racing
Brad
www.race-1.com
never really thought about it but they might be kin , but robert was a local late model driver that back in the early to mid 2000,s had some success at green valley and other racks in the area , he was like me and loved them ole blue ovals ......old harry was a force to be reckoned with back in the ole skoal bandit days , when nascar actually stood for racing.....
so --I was thinking a little off path but maybe still in the same stable/family
still good discussion
Brad
www.race-1.com
311 speedway allowing 602 clones in there budget 602 late model class, gotta add 50 lbs, 25 of it in front of engine plate!! so far every body running a store bought motor, get a 25 lb brake with gm seals!
That's the idea right there .Not everyone has the money to buy a new 602. My frustration comes from the fact no one will even listen to reason about it.They want even consider it. Everything they do to save racer money cost them money.One suggestion was well the motor I have put the money towards a 602 i understand the logic but I'm still money short that I don't have. The difference between my 1500 $ clone and 3800 $ 602 is I can race a season on the difference.Tracks kill me with there bulheaded approach to things they complain car counts are down you present them a partial solution nope can't do that.
i have to say i appreciate what our track has done with the street stocks and the new modified class , no more sanctioning body,s , just track rules , you can run a 602 , or build your own engine and pull extra weight , and i am good with this......
Glad to see some tracks are open minded about this that's a step in right direction.
and on a protest, motor gets dyno'd, if it shows more power than a 602 should it gets tore down, if it dont dyno high it gose back to owner as is!
here is my problem with dyno tech
what is the base line?
what bolt on components are being used for tech purposes?
are you only looking at peak TQ and HP ?
I have been involved with dyno tech in the past and always recommend a stand by (known legal) unit be run just before the engines in question- and be run with all the same components and timing (absolutely the same exact fuel)
the values of TQ and HP be looked at in several different RPM levels
the point at which TQ and HP cross is a key number
IF the engine in question is above base line numbers ---give the owner the opportunity for tear down and inspection by dimension and volume
not to many tracks or sanctions want to go through all that but how else can you be accurate?
Brad
www.race-1.com
My question is it it's a clone carrying an extra 50# and is duplicate of 602 how can it make more power if it checks right. Again I'm saying first teardown is on me no money taken i would be willing to pay tech guys 75 or 100$ fee he gets to tech a motor then he seals other head oil pan timing cover or something of way to id engine I put it back together for 100$ or so .Next time though it's regular protest fee. Problem is at my track protest fee does not cover reseal fee. Happened twice to a friend of mine to reseal a 602 . He had to pull money out of his pocket to cover rebuilders fee . How the hello is that fair it's not.,I just trying to figure out ways to keep people racing.
IMO a built engine has no place being teched by a dyno , its the physical aspects you tech , ie: heads , block , cam , pistons and so on , not numbers on a machine...
Excellent point Fast Ford.
Brad, I have a new question that I'm interested to learn about pertaining to the 604. Which carb spacer makes the most power on the dyno and which one do you recommend? And where would that power benefit you the most ie. better restarts, more topend on big tracks etc.
this might take a couple of posts because I am kinda busy right now but have a minute here at lunch so i will start the explanation
when you say "power" that term is most commonly associated with HP and even more specific peak HP
to me peak HP means absolutely nothing but a plain open carburetor spacer will hands down produce your most peak HP
with that said why do we have so many different configurations?---answer
torque, acceleration and drivability
when we cut space down with a simple 4 hole ----we increase acceleration but loose HP
when we add anti reversion under the spacer---we increase acceleration and TQ and gain some HP back
when we cut height ---we gan torque but loose HP
in the 4 link world of dirt racing the attitude of the car is to be tipped onto the RF corner
this off level situation combined with natural G force creates a much higher jet pressure on the right side and also has a tendency to spill fuel out of the vent tubes
this can be countered with an angled spacer
I was just getting going here---gotta go ---hope to return later with more input
Brad
www.race-1.com
little calmer now---
let me start this reply with there is NO perfect carb spacer for a 604
carb spacers all do different things and the best thing you can do is get a good balance for your situation.
for dirt late model applications we do like an angled spacer--most of the time (not all)
we have been very successful with this particular one
http://race-1.com/i-23432925-cii-100...acer-4150.html
it does meet the 1 inch rule that is in most sanctions and is a second version of the original
the original had too much angle and some other bad charcteristics
our goal is the best drivability meaning the smoothest power without hesitation
sometimes and in some areas of the track we may be giving up a digit or 2 of power but raw power is rarely what wins a race
we have to work with many different rule books and many different series so I can comment on quite a few different spacer combinations if you have one in particular
1 inch lightweight HVH super sucker is our "go to" spacer when we do not have much information but given specific situations we will change that up
hope some of that helps---sometimes I confuse more than explain--LOL
Brad
www.race-1.com
Optimum carb size for 602 and 604. Guys around here are going to 650s because they say engine is much more responsive off corners. I know on my claimer type engine it even sounds better with 600 single line Holley than when I bolt on my 750. Both are on e85.I think a 650 would be ideal for it. This was what my Carb builder were talking about. He was the Legendary Smoky Joe Summerville who passed away last week I am still reeling from this. He always took care of me on my carbs and stuff gonna miss him. Give me your thoughts on this.
sad to hear this , he was on top of the game in his day , as for the carb thing , right out of the box , i think a 650 will perform better , especially at lower rpm,s , but in the long run and if you can afford them , one of these tricked out , modern 750,s built for a crate engine in particular , will perform circles around it....lmo....
Most of the Stealths are 700 cfm and the Bakers are 750. That is what most guys around here are running. We had good success with one of the old 750 Stealth carbs that had the extra 1/2" spacer between the body and base plate but we run big half mile tracks. Also ran the 1" HVH spacer but had more success with it upside down. Sounds crazy but 602s already have plenty of low end with the short dual plane intakes. I'd guess it moved the power more toward top end where it was needed. Might have just been the combo with that carb. Tried it on a 604 and it didn't like it.
Brad,
We run a RUSH 604 dirt late model. Mostly interested in comparison between the 1" HVH that everyone runs and the newer 5/8" to see which would be the most beneficial.
the difference between the two HVH spacers is a trade off
the shorter 5/8" has a little more snap on restarts but is lacking just a bit midtrack in comparison to the 1 inch
we always like acceleration rate the most so we generally go with the 5/8
you are not gonna see a big difference either way from the seat
Brad
www.race-1.com
With all the newer rocked over on RF setups, Does anyone make a spacer that will flatten the carb out more.
The traditional angled spacers that I have seen the LF corner of the carb is the lowest corner ( leveling the carb in early 2000's left front 2 foot in air days). Seems to me the LR corner needs to be the lowers corner of the carb, and the RF the highest. Has anyone made anything like that yet?
Just random thoughts from my brain. happens a lot, just sometimes not so great of an outcome.
in supers or open engine competition usually there is no carb spacer rule for height so compound angle spacers are common where the carb is angled toward the left and toward the LR at the same time ---this is possible with 1.5 to 2 inches of spacer to work with
in the crate world most rules dictate a maximum of 1 inch
working these angles into 1 inch of space is difficult
our original tilted spacer was tipped to the left 7 degrees
it left no room to do any antireversion work under the spacer so it was not real good on restarts
our updated version still only tips to the left but the angle was cut to 3.5 degrees which gave us the opportunity to work on the bottom side of the spacer to increase acceleration for restarts
it races very well and restarts excellent
here is a link to it
http://race-1.com/i-23432925-cii-100...acer-4150.html
many dirt late models today have the engine tipped toward the rear and that compliments our angle to the left perfectly
Brad
www.race-1.com
I saw that the hunt the front guys ran second at the Southern National's pretty impressive considering it was a 604 they pulled out of the corner. Kyle Bronson won and I will assume it was a maxed out 604 as money is not a problem for them as it is not for several teams they out ran one local team from my area that I know they got one. I'm not saying they are cheating just getting all they can get.How often in your experience does a 604 straight from GM out run the big spenders. I don't like Bronson but I thought it was a class move to admit Joiner was fastest car all nite but lap car messed him up allowing him to pass for lead.
Brad have you done any testing with the Willy’s super bowl system? See a few guys running them but I’m not convinced they are worth the price.
Good question bout the Willy's system I know a team running one they swear by it. Watching the Willy's videos got to admit it's pretty impressive but it's pricey.
Yeah you just don’t know about some of these what I call “trinkets”. I’ve been around racing a long time and seen about a thousand must have gadgets come down the pike and most of them fizzled out.
My thinking is as long as the jets and power valves stay submerged in fuel the engine doesn’t care how it got there but what do I know??
Not saying it's a big deal, but if you watch some video's of a fuel bowl on a pass or on a dyno there is a ton of aeration in the bowl due to a number of factors
1. High PSI, think a garden hose at low pressure vs a straw at higher PSI both can flow the same amount but the amount it aerates the fuel is quite different
2. High or low fuel input into bowl. A needle and seat is for the most part spraying the fuel in above the fuel level (there are bottom feed needle and seats that comes out the end of the seat instead of a window in the side of the N/S). Again think spraying water in a bucket above the water level vs sticking hose below the water level
3. Size of Needle and seat. Again back to the diameter vs Pressure to flow a certain amount, more pressure more aeration.
Now consider how much fuel consistently the engine is getting when it may be aerated 10% or 90% at different times. Non or less aerated fuel is going to be more consistent and easier to tune and thus can optimize the tune much closer then you could with all the inconstant aeration.
Again how hard are you leaning on the tune/Air fuel ratios.
Now would I buy it, probably not for a crate. Is it better in theory yes but does it translate to any power or benefit? the million dollar question, lol.
You might be surprised to see the entire bowl look like solid foam
For people not familiar with this, here is a real simple way to explain a regular bowl set up vs what the super bowl does
STD: think spraying a garden hose with your finger over it into a bucket to keep the bowl filled varying how much water you let come out of hose by looking at the level of water in bucket
Super bowl: think the hose is in the bottom of the bucket and there is a hole in the side of the bucket at the level you want it filled too. The fuel just runs out the side and back to the tank. Fuel is flowing as much as the pump can pump all the time.
Way over simplified but gets the basic idea across
birdcage---my hat's off to you that was an excellent description
I love simple (easy to relate) explanations
You hit the "how" it works and "what" it is---- perfectly
You added some "why" we would use it explanation and I completely follow and agree with you but would like to add just one more aspect of the "why" we use it
drivability---the superbowl system maintains a constant jet pressure at all times----this enables the carburetor to not be influenced by G forces or rough track conditions----
the tune will be constant no matter how rough the track ---how hard the driver brakes or how tight the corner is
great discussion
Brad
www.race-1.com
I was amazed when I saw the video of the fuel bowl with out the super bowl.I turn around 600 holleys backwards because of the side hung float bowls. If you get in corner hard enough the side hung floats lose control of fuel causing the car to stumble off corner. Sure makes for some strange looks when you pull off hood and people see carb turned around.
Brad, I agree if you have the budget for it nothing wrong with the super bowl and adds a ton of constancy to the Air fuel, I'm just trying to not sound like a commercial for them. With the teams I help many that use an open engine use them (high compression and leaning on the motor at times pretty hard and most are higher budget teams where the cost isn't gonna take away from something else needed) but on the crate teams (usually low budget) they usually don't just because they need more important or pressing things over spending that kind of money on that.
That being said, there are a few things that a low budget guy can do to help for not a lot of money and get some of the benefit while allowing that money to be spend elsewhere to get larger gains in finish position/price money.
1. Use the largest needle and seat you can, .150 or larger will allow you to run way less pressure and reduce the aeration. Also keep in mind the larger the N/S the less PSI it will hold before it floods or pushes past the N/S, many .150+ N/S won't hold more then 5 PSI
2. Use a bottom feed needle and seat. This lowers where the fuel comes out the N/S by roughly 5/8", which is below the fuel level where a normal N/S is just about at the top of the fuel level.
3. Do you really need 8 PSI fuel pressure, again refer to #1. I can use a .150 N/S and have less then 5.5 PSI and feed a crate wide open all the way around a half mile track
4. Orientation of the window's in a STD N/S: The 2 windows in the N/S should be clocked so they face side to side in the car/openings in the fuel bowl. This allows the fuel to go unobstructed into the bowl, where if the windows was facing front to back it has minimal area to get directly into the bowl. Study the inside of the bowl and this will make more sense, as I'm not doing a good job explaining this.
5. Angled spacer or tilt entire engine
6. Float styles: probably not gonna have to worry about this as most carbs are gonna be center hung and have circle track type floats and jet extensions where needed but always good to verify and correct if needed.
Also a side note, seeing power benefits from the super bowl are going to be hard on a dyno. You just can't replicate the G forces, bumps or leaning of a car on the dyno.
A prime example of this was a friend of mine that worked in the engine shop of a major cup team: They came up with a deal for the carb to manifold attachment that reduced the vibrations to the carb on the track. On the dyno it showed almost no gain, but on Daytona or Talladega it was worth 1.5 MPH which at the time on a restrictor plate engine was 6 to 8 HP
nice content there birdcage
I actually printed that post and pinned it next to my desk for something to think about---it all makes sense
I do have a question about #2 the bottom fed N/S
2. Use a bottom feed needle and seat. This lowers where the fuel comes out the N/S by roughly 5/8", which is below the fuel level where a normal N/S is just about at the top of the fuel level.
not sure I know what you are talking about with that
Brad
www.race-1.com
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZSkAA...dpp/s-l640.jpg
Fuel comes out at bottom of N/S vs the windows in the side of a STD N/S with is about 5/8 higher
who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks
that is awesome stuff
thank you for sharing with us
I think you are kind of on the same mind set as me---I tell my customers --if they have a secret that they don't want told --they better not tell me
because if it works and makes something better and/or saves someone money or heartache ---I am going to tell the world
much appreciate the information Mr. birdcage
Brad
www.race-1.com
Thanks billet!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zftUFW9MfrM
"The primary bowl (on the right) actually had a top feed n/s with a .250" needle size and the secondary was a normal top feed .110". The primary n/s was run at 2 psi (low psi-hi flow) while the secondary was run at 6 psi"
Start at about 11 seconds in and set to .25 playback speed in setting at the lower right hand of video. PSI is all related to the size of the N/S. 2 PSI kept the front bowl full. . . .2 PSI (Grins)
*Note the front of the engine is too the right in video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PehQUKwQX8E STD top feed .150 N/S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOJKcvTKQAg Bottom feed .150 N/S
run at .25 speed and see the difference, the STD bowl is almost 100% foam
Mr. birdcage
you are certainly cutting into my sleep time--LOL
thank you---I am paying attention
Brad
www.race-1.com
https://i.postimg.cc/XqbJCsHg/Wix-made-in-Mexico.jpg
HMMM, not sure if all of the wix stuff is gonna be made in mexico or if it means any changes in quality but worth some research