I know of a couple track promoters one still at it the other is not and they both tried quite a few things to get more fans in the stands as a matter of fact they even tried specials for the racers and they never showed as well so, sometimes it's more then just a lazy promoter. There is a real problem with getting fans and racers to your local track and one of them is cost.
As for the discussion of piston speed as Masterbuilt already mentioned that's primarily a function of stroke. Longer stroke equals higher psiton speed. Shorter stroke equals less. Rod length in relation to stroke affects the acceleration and decceleration of the piston and how long it pauses as it changes direction at top and bottom. However, Stroke is the main factor here. Anyway, wide bore motors should reduce piston speed because you need less stroke to get the same displacement. However, the question in my mind is whether piston speed is really the biggest concern. The thing to remember here is we are talking push rod engines here and as you wind them up higher, the valve train will likely be the first point of failure. There's a reason Indy car engines use overhead cams. That's why we commonly see valve train failures in both late model and Nascar engines. At the RPMs they are pushing them to nowadays, it's the weakest link.
Let's really make them SUPER and allow traction control, true "open" cheated up tires, fuel injection, and nitrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mod Runner
And when there's 6 cars in the pits for the World, we can all sit there dumbfounded and say, "D@mn, how did this happen?"
there has been some good ideas here and in past threads about saving supers, and i am glad at least some one is trying , but , i am a realist and cant realy see any of it working , and i really wish it would, but take billett and some others idea and restrict aero and go to smaller , harder tires , problem is , the ones with the 10k plus shocks and smashers and dyno,s in the trailer are still gone hook up better than my 2k afco,s. , and like i have said , you keep limiting all performance components one the car, then you have a spec or crate or limited car , not a super...
Less traction = Less need of HP and thus down goes engine costs. I may be in the minority but any rules that attempt to fix the problem by fiddling with the engine output is a non-starter to me. The reason why is because as long as the car is capable of using 850HP racers are going to pressure engine builders to find that lost HP by any means necessary. Also attacking the problem with more engine rules only makes tech'ing the cars that much more difficult and time consuming to go over. Take away the cars ability to hike up and the spring smasher becomes an expensive paper weight. Hike up could be limited by an actual travel limiting chain on the LR, not unlike what Ray Cook is doing only more restricting. Take the nose height closer to the ground like they use to be, around 6 inch from surface and then they can't roll the car over as hard without destroying the nose and further hindering the aero. Now I have no doubt those with resources will do what they can to regain what they can that is lost, but it makes the difference between the haves and have not's much less. Harder tires I don't think are the answer and in my experience always leads to more cheating, ie like the year that Red Headed guy from North GA won the SAS title with bogus D55's he relabeled himself. He did such a good job the Hoosier rep couldn't tell them from the real thing by looking. A good tire rule is open comp/open brand, but you have to run what you qualify on, maybe with the caveat that you can change 1 rear for the heat and 1 for the feature. Pulling in to change tires after a race has started results in a 1 lap penalty, no exceptions. The point is you can achieve the results you want and not make the tech man need to be an engineer to police it and Supers can remain Super, not a limited, crate or spec. As long as the traction remains high, those who can will spend what they have to to be at the front. Another idea to really hurt the hike up potential is to do away with left side j-bars, RS panhard bars only. And ALL forward facing links must be level at ride height and longer than 17 inches.
All good opinions in this thread. I go to SLM races to see the near ultimate in dirt Late Model racing. I am interested in engines and love to see engines pushed to the limit. Blown engines just add to the interest in the race. Sure, I hate to see my favorite drivers blow an engine, but I am always curious as to why the engine blew. If a driver is not blowing engines now and then, I tend to feel he is not pushing the envelope far enough. Racing is kind of survival of the fittest. No matter what type or class of racing there is , there is always a concern of cost being too great. Race car body rules and enforcement may do more to level the playing field then engine size.
I'm a restrictor plate hard tire person. Limit carb size and punch tires. That's the cheapest and easiest way. A $30K powerplant will be for durability only and a good backyard builder can build one that will compete.
Look at the classes that are growing. Sport Mod etc.
cage , you might as well go ahead and add oil shocks and one spring per wheel to your suggestion , which to me makes it a spec class with open motors , I am racing on probably as low a budget as any one on here , but i am fortunate enough to have some equipment and knowledge to build a lot of stuff myself , but for some one on my budget and unable to build a lot of things themselves , i dont see how they could be competitive in SLM under any rules , its done been proven in the "economical" crate classes......
Quote:
Originally Posted by let-r-eat
What sport mods are you referring too? IMCA? Almost all of them use the 604 Crate and that worked for about half a season years ago, as quick as they saw the opportunity "approved re-builders" were tearing down brand new ones and going through the bearings and rings, clearance matching, balancing them and selling them for more. And to boot, a lot of them will say for $$$ I will put whatever you want in that thing and seal it up for you...its a joke. Now, do I think its a good class, darn right I do, but the crates have gotten out of hand because at the local level there is no incentive for the track to investigate a sealed crate and the large group of cheaters stay up front.
Sport mods run the 602 and I can get a couple seasons out of one 602 without opening it up. The blueprinting is overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoMatt
Here is the funny part of it, perspective, i am a crew chief on a SLM, we race weekly around Cincy Ohio. Here is what we do in the Pits, the real deal.
The Big Motor is required in qualifying. That is about the only time you can really use it, and Heat races it is required, otherwise your in the way, and or getting ran over. Ask anyone one here that races, they will agree, all out motor and new tires.
Feature time, track slicks off, your looking for every way possible to de-nut the power plant. Ask Bobby Pierce, he will confirm it, a lot of guys disconnect the aft 2 bbls on the Carb. How much power does that cut off? not sure, there are Carb company's that are making smaller carbs now too, 600 cfms etc. We also retard the timing up to 4 degrees at times, most have a switch in the cab that can do it on the fly.
Also they are now making spacers, the one that is under the carb, that restrict the size of the hole. Its a restrictor plate essentially. It has a couple of effects on the Engine, but the overall purpose is cutting power.
So where does this leave us? Not sure but de-hooking the cars when the track requires the big power is the key, otherwise you just dont need it, and it makes driving in the slick hard. The guys that win the Big shows are very skilled at applying the absolute most power, to maintain the highest speed on the track. Its not easy by any means.
This is a perspective from racing at like Florence Speedway, weekly, most often on the slick side. The more traction available the more power you need, the 2 go hand in hand.
Yep we were doing it in the 90's MSD retard on the big big motor (440-446) spacer plates on the smaller ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromulous
We had a adjustable spacer plate once it was like a carbon fiber material. Never could get it to work because of the force of tightening the nuts done on the carb flanges cool idea though
We had a whole box of different manifold insert sizes. Wide open for qual(usually), and would go smaller as the night progressed,if needed. Changing sizes also meant a gear change(very important). Most teams are doing this nowadays.
I disagree, I'm not for specifying parts. I say let everyone buy or build what you want, it just has to fit in the same box at the end of the night. That to me is what Super late model was for years, my brain against your wallet. How you got spec parts out of what I said is beyond me, I'm totally the opposite. Once you start throwing on restrictor plates and mandating tires it reduces what was super, to a spec class and that already exists, crate. And crate sucks, period. The only thing worse is the 602 class which is what you described, spec everything, which makes the racing dull and single file, same with hard a$$ spec tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastford
Wide bore motors and the expense is discouraging new and old super late model racers from staying in the class. Not everybody can spend 50 grand on a new wide bore motor. Sorry but I see it all the time. There will come a day when maybe they don't have any field "fillers" then what are they going to do. Ten big teams cant put on a big show worth watching. Guess Ill just stick with crate.
I won’t deny Bobby is a talent who improves the Late Model fan experience but I find it odd that a person who goes through cars like Kleenex is pointing fingers at engine costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoosierDirtFan
How many cars has he gone thru? I heard he started the season with 2 and added one more. Doesn't seem to excessive to me.
You speak much truth. We all may have the best ideas on how to go about correcting whats killing DLM, but the powers that be, in typical fashion seem to exist in their own echo chamber. The problem on here is there are multiple POV's, different sides of the fence. The grandstand POV vs The pit POV. To the grandstand crowd that have never raced, its entertainment to them and the cost or foundational health of the sport rarely enters their minds. They just want it wilder, faster, crazier and louder so they don't get bored and wander off. The Pit POV, has 2 camps, "Pre-On The Hook" and "Post-On The Hook".Quote:
Originally Posted by garrett87
Those of us blessed to have seen the DLM landscape prior to 98' and lived it, we know that Supers were Supers long before, "Getting up on the bars" was a thing. Since 98' we've watched the foundation of DLM erode and splinter as technologies sprang up to deal with the inherently violent nature of running, "On The Hook". In 86' when I first got involved there was only, "Late Model" no Super moniker was needed and the next class below that was "Cadet or A-Cadet or Sportsman" depending on your track. Late models were full tube frames(2x3) and Cadet/Sportsman was a clip car with an ALL "factory" steel 350 engine, flatop pistons and solid lift cam. To the racers who've only known running, "On the Hook" the idea of not doing that seems foreign and backwards, I get that, but trust us older guys when we say things weren't bad or boring back then and there was plenty of innovation. Engine development(expense) followed the arch of the advancement in technologies surrounding "On The Hook", so to me it stands to reason if you take away the element causing the disease, then the patient should recover.
So far in typical political fashion nobody wants to touch the root of the problem they just keep kicking the can down the road and then essentially socializing the class with a "we're all the same" crate solution. I thought crate was a good idea at first too, but now that has devolved and become as jacked up as Super. We now have companies the do nothing but invent specialized parts and gizmo's just for crate that arent cherap, so that now you may not spend $35K-$55K on an engine but instead spend your savings on a catalog of ,"Low Drag" "Super Lite" crate specific parts.
Personally I don't think Super or Crate or Limited are going to be fixed, there are too many parties now invested in businesses that provide all the specialized parts and pieces that sponsor and lobby for themselves. Its no different than when government starts up a social program, they can't turn it off because it would be political suicide and they like their jobs. Who don't? Its the same with Super, Crate and Limited, the horse is out of the barn and running around in the middle of the interstate, we're covering our eyes and hoping for a good outcome...
While I was thinking about this this morning before I logged on I wondered if building a new class wouldn't be the best solution. Just let Super run its course, it either lives or dies, but maybe re-establishing a Cadet/Sportman class with some of the rule ideas we've mentioned here would be the best solution.
1. 2x2 or 2x3 only frames, no round tube.
2. Only factory engine parts, but allow the newer stuff.
3. No aluminum wheels
4. No enclosed c0ckpits.
5. Narrower tires than late models
6. Any suspension on rear, all shocks/springs in front of axle except canti-lever.
7. All lower forward links must be flat at ride height and longer than 15 inches.
8. No j-bars.
9. Bodies maximum 6 inches from ground including nose. No splitter style noses, no sculpted ears.
10. No bumps stops, 1 Shock/spring per wheel ONLY.
Those are just the quick and dirty items I thought of. I just don't see Late Model existing on a weekly level in any iteration much longer going forward. Blue Collar guys can't afford the time and expense of super and fans don't like watching crates, at least not 602. If you look at the history of each class, follow its progression or digression you can see common threads. Limited lates were healthy until they started allowing after market heads a blocks, then cost started escalating because then engine builders could build in more power over what the factory stuff could withstand. Then add on "On The Hook" accoutre and its a 2 fold disaster. Crate followed a similar arch only they plunged into re-outfitting the entire car to maximize the insufficient output of a 604/602. Racers are gonna spend the money, you just have to make those expenditures less effective instead of going Socialistic and trying to mandate what can be spent. I say let fools be fools.
cage ,we will have to agree to disagree , because to me all all your suggestions adds up to what i consider a spec class where the rules you lay out specify nearly every aspect you can or can not do , other than engine , this class already exists in one form or another , I do agree with you , maybe its best to let SUPERS run its coarse . All of it really boils down to the promoters , and whose toes are they gone step on ,do they cater to the big money guys and there sponsors and keep the budget guy running in the back ,or cater to the budget guy and penalize the ones with the funding to have all the expensive stuff , which hurts the manufacturers of this stuff, and for the promoters , that is a tough one to call....
Yes fastford and cage, wehrs,keyser,afco,integra,penske doesnt want anything to change,and those are the people who are really running this sport...