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is it even possible to build an engine as reliable as the crate 602 that makes decent torque and power. i think the 602 runs around 3300 so round that up to 3500, could you build a competitive claim 9:1 motor with 76cc heads and max ci of 360 and a 2 barrel 500 for around 4500?
Yes you can I am running one right now and have built several of them the key is the camshaft and the amount of gear you have in the car try to stay around the same ratio as the crates I could get you a camshaft and lifters if you are interested pm me.
It's gonna be hard to build a reliable motor for $4500 if you have to buy everything new. If you have some parts laying around and can find some deals it can be done.
At my machine shop we are resonably priced and could do it for that I have even built 351 Fords with aftermarket heads for $4500.
we currently run a super stock basically a clip late model with a 3 link and it looks like its gonna get canned! so were gonna need to move to another class, i dont have a internal complex that i need to race the top division i just want to have fun and win races and the sport mod seems to be the class that would suit us best. i would rather have an open motor just because there is more wiggle room but at 3300 for a crate its kinda hard to compete. i saw on youtube cncmotorsports made a northern sport mod motor make 373hp and i like the sound of that. were can you make the power legally? your not allow to lighten max 360ci no touch eg crappy heads and 9:1 comp i guess get good rods light weight pistons and make sure you get the right cam.
As far as making power definitely run the EQ heads with the edelbrock eps intake. Make sure to keep piston to head clearance at .035 to get the best quench area for a good burn. Lighter weight parts help some but will cost you extra and may not be necessary. Run a longer set of headers 1 5/8 primary that is around 36" with a 3 inch collector. Try not to run pump gas either I like to see 9:1 engines run 100 octane fuel like av gas. And camshaft selection is important don't fall into the bigger is better trap and use a wider lobe seperation than 106. The crates don't usually out power the open motors they are just easier to hook up its more of a traction issue than power.
in our super stock motor we aimed to build a 600+ 383 we fell miserably short at 520hp but we made almost equal torque having said that it really opened our eyes that torque is what i as a driver like versus hp. but on 9:1 is it really possible to have a stump puller? i like the idea of working with a engine builder to find hp but it seems expensive in comparison to the crate i am just weighing out the pros and cons and trying to arrive at the best decision
Yes it is possible to build a stump puller at 9:1 for the simple fact the engines you will be running against will also be 9:1 and you are right torque will win more races than hp and that is where the camshaft comes into play more than anything.
can you run 6.0 H-Beam connecting rods? i have a 350 with an eagle crank and h beam rods i would need to change the pistons to flat top then new heads and intake spruce up the 500 carb and were in business
Rods have to be I beam non polished but cap screws allowed as is 6.0 and crankshaft must be oem or oem replacement without any lightening holes in the 2nd or 3rd rod journal throws.
I've been running my claim engine with the same gear as the crates are and haven't any problem keeping up with them and we have some pretty stiff competition.
I run a 351 ford with the aftermarket heads but the same could be done with a chevy. I don't run a chip just the same gear as the crates it has a lot to do with the camshaft that we worked on with a reputable grinder and even he didn't like the idea of wat we wanted to run but now he agrees.
Do you think the EQ heads are that bad?
I know the oem smoggers are crap but the EQs look like they have a better shaped runner as far as short side radius never had a chance to get them flowed for comparison though or dyno them.
We turned our motor around 1,000 more RPM more than the crates to have similar power. That was with a Schmidt machine engine with 487x heads. We probably didn't need to go to that extreme, but the crates have such an advantage with a motor best case that is making similar power up to the carb and then you add a 4 barrel vs a 2 barrel and it is game over. With similar gearing I think it would be very tough to beat the crates night in and night out.
I know if you run a 351w you can compete at the same rpm rather the track is heavy or dry.
i am not disputing that the crate is a good choice i am just a guy that would like to try something else when everyone is on the same engine package, i feel the element of surprise is greater that way. if the eq head sucks which head would you use to compete with the crate? i am ok with turning 7000 rpms. i feel the added cost could be recouped with 1 blown head gasket of a crate, it seems like its 1000$ to get them looked at when i could do that at my own shop and control how the motor works also i know this sounds dumb as if i am smarter than the engineers that get paid to design these motors i just want to be different and upset people winning
In my opinion based upon what I have seen the EQ head is your best bet do I think they are the best head out there no but I believe they will outflow the oems based upon what I have seen. Claim engines can win against the crates if you use EQ heads with the edelbrock intake that would be a great start. I cannot stress how important proper camshaft selection is as it will make or break any engine build if you are serious about it let me know and I can get you a tried and trued grind with lifters for $250 and some freight.
IMO, you will want to consistently turn around 7200 to compete with the crate. That is the RPM range we ran. I am a big believer in the 487x heads. Mostly because that was what we ran and our driver never complained of our motor running out. As far as cam and other stuff I would recommend using Schmidt Machine in Fairbury, NE. They build the motors for Jordan Grabouski and a few other guys that run really well. They have a really strong open motor northern sportmod program. They have multiple guys running different cams and can give you good advise for your program.
The rpm that you are having to run is mostly dependent on the camshaft you use I can honestly tell that the 487x heads will not be very efficient at that rpm. The less your head flows the lower rpm you will want to run to be efficient.
A claim with a 4412 can make more power legally than a crate if built right with the right cam choice using smogger heads. There are no need to spin the motor 7grand as the motor won't be making any power and no efficiency. All your doing is stressing your top end. The top end is already weak with the parts we are allowed. I have never had a motor falure yet. Not saying it couldn't happen but I haven't. I have seen a guy at my track have major top end problems trying to run 7grand weekly.
Dr J claims to make 405 hp and 425 torque with the northern sport mod crate killer with EQ heads. Carb headers distributor motor all for 5800. They also have a cost comparison to the crate if you want all you can get out(top of the line carb, headers misc upgrades) of it and the price is almost the same
Our 355 WISSOTA b-mod engine was built for $3500.00 including carb, pan, water pump, etc. ready to bolt in. Including parts and machine work.
Specs… 010 block, Wiseco pistons (.010 in the hole), GM PM rods with ARP bolts, stock crank, Melling M55 oil pump, 993 heads with Si valves, K-Motion springs, Crane retainers. Jones cam and juice lifters… (.500 lift, 243 duration on 106 lobe separation), moly pushrods, $50.00 Willy's carb core rebuilt by our local carb guy, iron intake, GOOD MSD dizzy, Allstar Vette water pump, Allstar pulleys.
We are running Speedwerx Tri-Y headers that came with the car.
We had planned on dyno-ing the engine but ran out of time. We are guessing we have around 360-380 HP. We will dyno it after we get our spare engine done and installed… it will serve as our back-up.
WISSOTA is only testing crates this year but we will probably run against a few at two of the non-sanctioned tracks we'll run. I don't see a problem keeping up with them at all… time will tell.
The thing to remember is this, No matter how much you spend you will still have the same problem, You can be claimed..........Thats the part that sucks. Now, If these guys that think they have all the answers and no SO MUCH more then the next guy, and the sanctioning Bodies were as smart as they think they are....they would Spec an Engine with certian parts only that would be inspected and then sealed and not claimable. This way I don't have to make these auto dealers richer then they already are. And you NA sayers all know it could be done. But then the Crate would not have the advantage no longer.......Or lets equal it out and put a Swap rule on the Crates....Now theres an Idea. Bet the Crate Guys wont like that.....
Swap rules are never a good idea because if you take care of your stuff with good oil and maintenance you don't want to end up with something that hasn't been taken care of or sort out someone's idea of "tuning". If you want to kill car count, that junk will do it.
I've been top a couple sport mod races this summer and a guy from quincy il has a claimer motor that gives the crate guy's fits he won by a straight away at lee county the night we were there.I don't know the details of his motor other than it is a sbc but he won his heat and the feature going away. I noticed he was one of 3 cars that had the claimer sticker on the roof post. I know a local engine builder that is looking hard at building a claim motor that will run with the 602 he's testing cams now to help with the lesser heads the claim engines arte forced to run. I've built quite a few motors over the years and could easily build a claimer for under 3,500 those that say they can't are over pricing they're labor. he11 we just built a 600hp 392 for under that you've just got to keep your eye's open and plan it out.
a buddy of mine switched from an open to a crate in his sport mod. he likes the open motor better. felt it had better power and he likes the rpm.Quote:
Originally Posted by racin6mod
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