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I know that E85 can be really inconsistent with it's blend, so my question is can you add methanol to say E60 to bring it up to 85? Or is there any additive I could use, this way I don't spend all of my time changing my tune or driving all over Gods creation testing pump E85 to keep it consistent?
You wouldn't want to do that, it isn't the same thing.
Have to use Ethonal
Pump gas E85 has quite the range according to the NTSA nweb site so buying from a reputable dealer is key but may not have the same savings in it.
Thanks Lizard, I am trying to save money. If I could get reliable pump E85 at roughly 2$ a gallon vs 8$ a gallon fuel, (to win $200-$300) I could save roughly $60 a night. Figure that up over the course of the season! That is a lot of tires, or maybe a set of custom shocks. Think about it!
I think having consistant fuel so tune is easier to manage is worth something. What does a tank of bad fuel cost in time wasted at track, most times when it should have been your night?
As a friend of mine likes to say Nuthins free.
I agree 95Shaw, just trying to save a few bucks. It may still be a little cheaper for me to buy "racing" E85 from a supplier like VP or someone like that.
I don't see how your going to save that much...Quote:
Originally Posted by superstock50
I ran 4 barrel open motor and 4 barrel crate on race race gas tuned properly and only used 3-4 gallons a night total. When I ran the same crate on alky I burned 17-20 gallons in a night.
so you burned 5 times more alky than gas? my experience is about 2:1 on methanol , e85 is less than that. Down here racing fuel is 8 bucks a gallon , e85 is $1.79 right now . even after buying some strait ethanol to calibrate with , it is way cheaper than racing gas.
I've been running pump E-85 for 2 years now. What I do is buy the fuel in june or july when the pumps would be closest to E-85. Then I test it and add unleaded gas if it's too high ethanol content or ethanol if it's too low. I usually buy a barrel at a time. When it gets close to fall I fill my barrel so I have enough to get through fall and spring. It's been working good for me. The key is making sure the fuel stays consistent so your carb tune will be right. It's a little extra work but the last time I filled my barrel it was $1.15 a gallon so compared to $8 race gas it's a big savings.
you have already argued about this with me in the past, don't you get sick of beating a dead horse? I also explained to you that I was a alky dealer and my best bud ran alky still and went thru at least what I already posted in every single night of racing on the same tracks as me all season.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastford
Ill tell you the same thing as last time.. yes and I made the same hp on gas as alky, 5 less peak tq..
once again, how are you burning 5 times more alky than gas? thats my question. and ill keep beating that dead horse as long as the horse is incorrect. you come on here and degrade peoples opinion all the time, well 90% of the time any way. but when some one questions you , you get all defensive, also sounds like your buddy needs to find a new alky tuner if hes burning 5 to 1 alky over gas, carry on..........
I agree , if they are burning 5:1 they need a new tuner, or carb guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastford
JMO
how? Its CALLED racing, the right pedal is on the floor 99.9 percent of the time with a 604 crate in a IMCA modified..Quote:
Originally Posted by fastford
haha, jdr performance is our carb builder
nothing is incorrect its not just one buddy ding dong, everyone around me who runs on alky burns the same amount of alky...
what you should be concentrating on but your not smart enough to figure it out is WHY I burned so little GAS... AND made the SAME power as alky................... that reason is jdr performance. call john he can hook you up, of course its not free or from a junk yard.
13-15 gallons alky for another guy I just asked, for average night, but if cautions in feature up to 20. top 4 guy 30-45 nights a year
so you had to ask. i thought you already knew every thing, any way I call BS on you and your buddy, but any way i can see you do not posses the intelligence for me to keep arguing with you on this subject, so ill stop beating the dead horse,
2:1 sounds about right.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastford
Typical racing alcohol has a lower BTU content so it requires approx 2.2 times as much to make the same heat as typical race gas. Heat is energy. Assuming the A/F is stoic for the test, you need X amount of Air and Fuel to make a certain amount of power. You can argue all day long but you can't hide behind basic math.
SCR could be right in the context that his buddies engine could be poorly set up for the fuel his using. Wrong cam, wrong carb settings, or some other variable between the two engines, drivers and set ups causing the large disparity in fuel consumption. SCR is still an arrogant ass and proves it with most of his posts so I don't take him seriously either way. Now in 1...2...3...
So if you are running the Alky in a crate motor with less compression than a real race motor, I can see it possibly using a bit more fuel, but still not 5:1
I run a 15º open UMP mod motor on 112+ race gas, and I use about 6-8 gallon a night on average say on a big fast 3/8 track.
Years ago on alky with a 23º motor on same track I was using about 15 gallons a night.
Three things to think about. 1) Nobody races at stoichiometric a/f. It doesn't make best power there and you'd hurt the engine. 2) carburetor size has bearing on fuel consumption. 3) track conditions, idle time and caution laps also have bearing on fuel consumption. Looking at bsfc and consumption at w.o.t. doesn't factor in everything. SCD dyno tests his stuff. I'm willing to bet that the tune up was right with both fuels, and that the gas carb was punching way above it's weight.
size of carb, gear ratio, torque, rpm's , size of track , weight of car. compression ratio , engine size and good setup = less practice run. = amount of fuel. he!! ,let it go
i stopped beating that dead horse 3 days ago, but i would love to have one of those magic carburetors that burns 5 times less gas than alky though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave41
Does a car warm up faster on gas or alcohol? Does a person pull out onto the track with a cold engine? It isn't "magic", but a very small group of carburetor builders know what to do to maximize power while keeping fuel consumption to a minimum. That was always a big objective with the carbureted NASCAR stuff. If you can take away one pit stop it's huge. He happens to have a very good one. In theory the difference is close to 2:1 but there's a whole lot more to it. It doesn't really matter. People will run what they want to run and will always question something they're not used to seeing.
E-85. It can run very well if you have a good carburetor and the fuel and fuel system is set up right. Cut one corner on it, and it will run horribly. Using the right carburetor builder and following all of the recommendations will yield the results you want. Tread carefully here, there are more bad E-85 4412 carbs than good ones. By far. Conversion kits don't work. You'd be wise to call a few of the good builders and see who knows E-85.
fuel left in tank this sat. not real good next sat. ethanol is bad to evap. in a week
50J who do you recommend for a E85 builder? Need to be 4 barrel, single inlet, non double pumper. ( due to rules)
We have ran pump E85 for the last 8 years, carbs by JDR. Check every batch for ethanol content. Have ran in 604 Crate & 750HP 14-1 Open late model and mod engines. we use about 10 gallons per car on an average night.It makes more torque than gas , is easier to cool, and usually around $2 per gallon in our area.
Billy at Willys carb and dyno told me when I had them build me an e85 carb for our crate that if your buying it from the pump your wasting your money. The range on that stuff out of the pump from my own testing can be anywhere from 60-94 ethanol not to mention they are cutting with the worst of unleaded fuel available. Do yourself a favor find you a renegade fuel dealer and buy the renegade race E85 leaded fuel. We've used 5 drums this year and every drum has tested dead on 85 and its only about 250 a drum.
MLR has good advice. E-85 should always be tested but a small change in ethanol content makes very little real difference. E-85 in a drum is fine too, and Sunoco or VP have it. I wouldn't use ethanol with leaded fuel, but different strokes I suppose.
Why not use ethanol with leaded fuel?
Google "mixing ethanol with leaded fuel". I'm sure it's just fine for some people. It just depends on what you're looking for.
We have dynoed a 604 with pump e85 ranging from E-82 to E-87 with no jet changes, and saw no difference in power or temperature, we have ran renegade e-85, not on the dyno, but it wasnt an obvious difference. I believe the VP C85 is better, but it wont separate in an e85 tester, so we cant run it (it tests to be pure E-98) not saying it is but with a standard $20 tester that is how it checks.
I heard the same thing from the guys at Willies , about pump e85 but I also know they sell their own blend of e-85. If you check the content with every batch, you wont have any problems. Pump E-85 gets a bad rap from the fuel companies because it does everything their $10 a gallon fuel does for $2 a gallon.
I also hear stories of damage to components & having to drain the fuel cell every week, we do none of that , we treat it just like gas.
We have used pump e85 for going on 3 yrs now with a 600 single line Holley with only one problem the one time I did not have checker with me it was bad . The mix was about 50/50 apparently the delivery man put gas in e85 tank.i caught it first when I started to pour it gas smell was way too strong got checker and it was 50/50. I carried it back to store they gave my money back and offered to pay for any damage.They were not real happy either having contaminated fuel.A new flex fuel car would probably have never known the difference as it would have adjusted to the mixture. Every since then I always carry checker and it has been perfect every time. We started 1 season with a drum of renegade e 85 and then went back to pump gas renegade was 320 a drum with tax or a little over 5 $ a gallon pump is between 1.80 to 2$ a gallon do the math it's a no brained with no difference in performance now race e85 is leaded so we add marvel mystery oil or atf to fuel for some top end lubrication.
You won't find changes above e60. More timing won't get you anything. E85 is an easy 30+ hp/TQ. I've tuned a lot of cars fuel injected and carb and it's great. Just make sure you change that oil frequently as it is very corrosive on the bottom end. A good tuner for carbs is hard to come by and I suggest chassis dyno tuning them. If anyone says pump e85 isn't good they're not informed and spewing bs. Gas vs e85 look to use 30% more e85. We use 10 gal on typical race night. Pump e85 is just fine and only $1.50-$2 gal.
With an engine with some compression you have to be a lot more careful with the blend. On any of them, more than a few% of ethanol content change will require a tuning change if you want it to be right. Everything MLR suggested is correct in my opinion. You'll find a big difference in E-85 carburetors from different sources even with tuning for the same a/f too.
You can run 38* timing on your high compression motors all day long and run e60-e85 without changing anything. You're not going to find any noticeable gain past e60.
Actually, the lower the ethanol percentage the richer it runs and the lower the octane rating. Not all engines need the same timing. That depends on combustion chamber, piston design and some other factors. The plugs and dyno show what the engine likes for timing.
I ran E85 on 434 23 degree motor with a carb from Pro Flow systems. The carb was perfect right out of the box. All my E85 was out of the pump ranging from e82 to e88. if its over e85 i cut it with 93 octane. If its under e85 you have to have e98 to bring it up and there is no e98 where i live so I test at the pump. I have ran e82 and could tell no difference, smart or not? IDK, but I did it. I usually used 10 gallons of VP late model plus and on E85 i was using 15 gallons.
been running e85 for a few seasons, if you have a good carb builder then it easy to deal with. I have a fuel tester they are cheap, and you will want one. As mentioned you may need to add ethanol. My experience in IL has shown the fuel to be consistent at the two stations I buy at all thru race season.