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Anyone ever update older car to little newer horn front geometry ? Or any other good front end geometry to try out on some of these older cars. Since i know at least in my area there is a surplus of blue/grey/black rockets and smackdown masters cars laying around. Were would one find measurements for locating the pick up points of the suspension?
Where are you from? There's quite a few around Central/north Georgia.
Clint Smith would be able to put you in touch with someone. I believe Doug Steven's that helps with senoia raceway does horn front ends.
im in the mid atlantic MD, Georgia is a bit of a hike haha
Kriptonite will clip older rocket stuff and put their front end stuff on it. I don't have the first clue what their stuff is similar to. One would guess rocket. But i do know a few people that have them and claim they are the best steering car they have ever driven
i have seen alot of older rockets with the kryptonite reverse strut front end, id imagine from the looks of them its a modified blue/grey geometry. Might be a good option i like the thinking behind it. still alot of guys love the blue grey over the xr1, think it has alot to do with comfort and understanding of adjustments that are effective
Let me start by saying that I am not associated with anyone who is running one of these late model chassis from any manufacturer...but I am a very observant person who has a good understanding of chassis dynamics. My points are as follows: Their are reasons that the newer stuff(2016+ ruffly) is better. The newer chassis' not only have the increased right front clearance, but chassis setup technique has changed too. The new stuff is not dependent on static scale numbers. With the new stuff, you may have to put it on scales and set some ride heights, but this is not where the secret stuff comes in. The secret stuff has to do with the load numbers on the right front and also the load numbers on the right rear. The load number that is commonly worked on the right front is a number that is determined at 4-5 inches of travel. These load numbers are set on a spring smasher, and most all of the guys running this newer stuff will have the spring smasher machine with them at the track. These measured numbers at X number of inches of travel are much more relevant than any number that could be found by weighing a care at ride height on 4 scales. I am not saying that any certain chassis cannot be modernized, they all can. Someone said that a chassis is just steel tube that has been welded together, and this is true to a certain extent. If you are trying to run an older chassis, you must realize that although the chassis can be made to get the rf travel that a current chassis can achieve, you will not be getting the help that the other guys with these new chassis are getting. Very often they can call the chassis company after the heat race and the support guy will give them advice on what their right side load numbers should be. You will have to make your own setup decisions. By buying a current chassis, you are getting new steel, but most importantly you are buying know how. This know how usually comes from a top 30 driver, and he is beeing helped by several engineer type guys.
If you don't need those guys, your old updated car is just as good. The smasher don't care where you put those shocks. All the smasher tells you is what the load would be on your coilover mounts, if you travel that far. It doesn't mean you actually hit all those points. The same physics also still apply. More wedge loosens decel and tightens accel. You still have to understand what your car and driver is doing at all points on the track. Brandon Sheppard smash numbers are useless for a guy who doesn't back up the corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtdobberrr
There's nothing special about the smasher.
The "updated magical suspension geometry" is just moving things around so they don't bounce off the track. With the 15" nose height rule (which granted, isn't enforced) it is pretty easy to get any car to have the nose be the first thing that hits the track, which is what you want. From a geometry standpoint, I have seen no massive overhauls in A frame configuration or steering geometry that warrants the OP taking the car to anyone to get the magic new front clip installed..Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtdobberrr
As MBR said, the spring smasher is just a glorified spring rater and certainly contains no secret voodoo. My smasher battery died about 8 months ago and haven't had a need to replace it.
It’s not magic, it’s a set starting point that is known to be better. I believe the “magic” lay more in the spindles and the way the act upon the car in a turn ( weight jacking ) and these newer front ends have a better pre existing dynamic caster camber number. Which could all be achieved with any car by relocating pick up points for control arms, adjusting bumpsteer ect. The newer horn and rocket stuff is just a much closer baseline, and much more easily adjusted with the advent of slugged upper mounts. There is no magic other than having the right tools in your box to make and understand adjustments and the time to experiment with them.
Nothing magic about a smasher it's just a better way of tunning on the car. As masters said it still works the same. The only magic in the new front ends is the settings have been adjusted for the increased travel and current stance of the cars
That's correct. The components themselves are not all that different from 15 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jking24
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
Not too sure about that. In Jimmy's DoD interview, he said Rockets baseline was the best he had ever seen!
Must be nice to be so naive as to think that dirt racers are actually telling the truth in interviews........... do you still put your teeth under your pillow for the tooth fairy when they fall out? Saying jimmy Owens is on the rocket baseline is like saying Epstein killed himself. As master built was sayin, physics matter and smash numbers aren’t the whole story......Quote:
Originally Posted by ZERO25
Which baseline? Before or after he altered his rear track width? HmmQuote:
Originally Posted by ZERO25
Why did it take him years to make himself comfortable in an Xr1?
Dont shoot the messenger......you should be asking him these questions!Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
Id venture to say Cody Mallory had alot to contribute to the speed they found this year.
I hear he helps Rumley with physics equations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy9991
He's the guy that tells him where the decimal goes lolQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer
I think chemistry is Codys expertise! lol
I'm sure he helped, but don't get it twisted, jimmy is not scared of the hot wrench, and if he did tweak her, no one would ever know but who was in the shop helping weld her upQuote:
Originally Posted by ZERO25
just look at how straight he is driving, brandon doesn't drive that straight
You certainly don't have to cut or weld on a rocket to get it to drive straight. Just because Brandon doesn't drive straight doesent doesn't mean the car is incapable its preference. If jimmy drove the one car you can bet mark would have her straight as an arrow and he wouldn't need to cut anything to make that happenQuote:
Originally Posted by grt74
just stating jimmy is very capable of doing anything he needs to do to win, including cutting a car and making it the way he likes it, and if you don't believe guys are tweaking a car here and there, well theres that, in racing not all cars are created equal, I've had the opportunity to measure several different manufactures chassis, yes there close but not the same, 1/4 inch here and there makes a differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Jking24
also, while i respect everything mark has done in racing (and he has done a ton) he is not the only one that can do it, just ask the engineer that helped build the xr1
i don't know why everyone is so scared to cut and weld a car today, thats how you'll get an edge, plumb bob, angle finder, square, and a tape measure is the best tools a person in racing can have
don't get me wrong, you'll need a good set of shocks, and tons of testing (thats where its at today)
sorry about robbing the post
I understand what your saying and i only mention mark because everyone uses that car as the bench mark for comparisons of what a rocket can and cant do. My point was while I'm sure jimmy is more than capable and willing i would be willing to bet he didn't need to cut anything to get a the rocket to his liking.Quote:
Originally Posted by grt74
No doubt, Jimmys no dummy!Quote:
Originally Posted by grt74
I seen him change rearends in his Bloomer car one year, and I noticed the most generic looking birdcage with no adj holes. I asked epj who built those, and epj said Jimmy does his own!
Another time, a friend of mine went to Jimmys shop to meet one of his crew guys. He said as soon as he walked into the shop, Jimmy quickly grabbed a towel and threw it over a shock he had tore apart and threw another over a shock he had on the dyno!
He has enough knowledge and ability to tweak a few things!
Get the sawsall out and have at it !
Jackie Boggs would do it to a brand new car, if he didnt like how it drove. His best car was a crashed up, front end, chassis that sat in the back of his shop for many years rusting. He cut the front end off, welded a new one on, actually Audie did it. He won like 3 or 4 Harleys with it at Brushcreek. Fastest SLM i ever seen, when the track was a tri-oval, i would venture to say he would carry more speed than racing at Eldora (he made that comment to me), anyway it was something to see.
Moyer Sr, is / was the same way.
I believe MFG is a lot better nowadays, tolerances are better, and welding knowledge. Plus a lot of the new cars are really optimized, design wise. At least with the chassis in the past 2 years or so. So that being said, i am not sure there would be anything to gain cutting on a new gen design.
you herd it here first , loose gruff L/M chassis , coming spring of 2025 ......and i guarantee you he will put the sawsall to it.....this is hear-say yall ....lol......