Cantilever lift bar or pullbar!

Interesting ...ltemodel!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTssW9GaocI

I've always been a cantilever fan for many reasons. I bought a RS Rayburn Canti from SPark several years back. I also traded shock building info to an undertaker in Kentucky for his canti-lever blue prints and data, but he didn't hold up his end and ran off with my shock data. Not everybody in racing has ethics, many are out for themselves alone.

It seems to me that many race noobs think that a 5th coil or 6th coil change will take them from being a top 10 car to first place, and either of these coils will not help anywhere near that much. A 4 bar car has many adjustments that are much more important than a a 5th coil adjustment. In the slick, many guys think that they are getting out run on corner exit because they "lack traction", or they "need bite", and in reality, their cars are just set up too tight to turn in, or they are just too loose past the apex. Chassis men usually talk in riddles and half truths. These new cars do not have any magic that the cars of 25 years ago did not have, other than a much better understanding of springs and shocks, and these improvements came from modern data acquisition. If your team is not getting very high level help, like factory help, then you must have someone who can stand on the fence and watch and understand what the car is doing. Very few drivers can drive a dirt car and actually fully understand what is going on.

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Originally Posted by LRtireCHANGER

It seems to me that many race noobs think that a 5th coil or 6th coil change will take them from being a top 10 car to first place, and either of these coils will not help anywhere near that much. A 4 bar car has many adjustments that are much more important than a a 5th coil adjustment. In the slick, many guys think that they are getting out run on corner exit because they "lack traction", or they "need bite", and in reality, their cars are just set up too tight to turn in, or they are just too loose past the apex. Chassis men usually talk in riddles and half truths. These new cars do not have any magic that the cars of 25 years ago did not have, other than a much better understanding of springs and shocks, and these improvements came from modern data acquisition. If your team is not getting very high level help, like factory help, then you must have someone who can stand on the fence and watch and understand what the car is doing. Very few drivers can drive a dirt car and actually fully understand what is going on.

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I agree 100%. All you have to do is think about the fads that come and go. Progressive, digressive. No preload, lots of preload, hydraulic that produces a constant force, something that ramps quickly. They have all been the new ticket to go fast or at least lighten your wallet.

I've found as long as it produces adequate resistance and doesn't produce a bad load dislocation when you are asking a lot of the tires, it really doesn't matter all that much.

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Originally Posted by LRtireCHANGER

It seems to me that many race noobs think that a 5th coil or 6th coil change will take them from being a top 10 car to first place, and either of these coils will not help anywhere near that much. A 4 bar car has many adjustments that are much more important than a a 5th coil adjustment. In the slick, many guys think that they are getting out run on corner exit because they "lack traction", or they "need bite", and in reality, their cars are just set up too tight to turn in, or they are just too loose past the apex. Chassis men usually talk in riddles and half truths. These new cars do not have any magic that the cars of 25 years ago did not have, other than a much better understanding of springs and shocks, and these improvements came from modern data acquisition. If your team is not getting very high level help, like factory help, then you must have someone who can stand on the fence and watch and understand what the car is doing. Very few drivers can drive a dirt car and actually fully understand what is going on.

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you are absolutely correct , the old man that helped me get started when I was young did more to help get my car in the game by standing on the fence watching than I did in the drivers seat , I was very fortunate in this ......

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Originally Posted by LRtireCHANGER

It seems to me that many race noobs think that a 5th coil or 6th coil change will take them from being a top 10 car to first place, and either of these coils will not help anywhere near that much. A 4 bar car has many adjustments that are much more important than a a 5th coil adjustment. In the slick, many guys think that they are getting out run on corner exit because they "lack traction", or they "need bite", and in reality, their cars are just set up too tight to turn in, or they are just too loose past the apex. Chassis men usually talk in riddles and half truths. These new cars do not have any magic that the cars of 25 years ago did not have, other than a much better understanding of springs and shocks, and these improvements came from modern data acquisition. If your team is not getting very high level help, like factory help, then you must have someone who can stand on the fence and watch and understand what the car is doing. Very few drivers can drive a dirt car and actually fully understand what is going on.

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Very well put. I myself prefer the pull bar over 5th and for the Canti-levers to be on the suspension. Your advice states what I noticed in both my time in crates and karting, both under powered situations where being smooth and having a good setup are the most important. Instead I watched many people in crate try to throw the car around, hang out and then claim the guy in front was cheating because he had so much more power, when in reality they were giving away speed being erratic and ill handling.

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Originally Posted by Henry Every

Very well put. I myself prefer the pull bar over 5th and for the Canti-levers to be on the suspension. Your advice states what I noticed in both my time in crates and karting, both under powered situations where being smooth and having a good setup are the most important. Instead I watched many people in crate try to throw the car around, hang out and then claim the guy in front was cheating because he had so much more power, when in reality they were giving away speed being erratic and ill handling.

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Is any type of cantilever legal now for Lucas/Woo? Thought they'd eliminated anything Rocket didn't create.

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Originally Posted by KTMLew

Is any type of cantilever legal now for Lucas/Woo? Thought they'd eliminated anything Rocket didn't create.

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By the letter of the rules, I believe you are correct. There's a lot of little details that would make cantilever cars I've seen be illegal

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Originally Posted by MasterSbilt_Racer

By the letter of the rules, I believe you are correct. There's a lot of little details that would make cantilever cars I've seen be illegal

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That would make the old-school Rayburn or the MRE (I think), 5th coil cantilever, illegal. Believe it was MRE that had a rocker link to 5th coil with the shock lying down parallel to ground. Not sure that was at all beneficial. But I always believed/still believe the 5th coil has huge influence on bite even though everyone here says no. Shocks & bar angles are the prevailing propaganda here.

Feel free to correct me on that. Been 30+ years since anyone tried anything truly different.

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Originally Posted by KTMLew

That would make the old-school Rayburn or the MRE (I think), 5th coil cantilever, illegal. Believe it was MRE that had a rocker link to 5th coil with the shock lying down parallel to ground. Not sure that was at all beneficial. But I always believed/still believe the 5th coil has huge influence on bite even though everyone here says no. Shocks & bar angles are the prevailing propaganda here.

Feel free to correct me on that. Been 30+ years since anyone tried anything truly different.

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The 5th coil ultimately provides resistance to the axle wrap. Where it attaches to the rear end and the chassis does affect how it redistributes the load on the rear tires. It does this by removing load from the lr and rr coilovers. There are things that can clearly go wrong in that scenario, but as long as the load distribution is correct and you don't have any violent changes in load, there's not really anything big to gain.

[QUOTE=MasterSbilt_Racer;2481690 Where it attaches to the rear end and the chassis does affect how it redistributes the load on the rear tires. It does this by removing load from the lr and rr coilovers.[/QUOTE]

I believe this translates to, it lifts the chassis at the attachment point of the 5th coil. It's a lever prying the chassis up off the rear suspension. Does a pullbar do it differently? From my understanding they "feel" different. Due to height of forward attachment point or...?

There is a 'feel' associated with each one. I am old enough to have been through a huge variety of 'lift' devices, from reece bars and the fiberglass 'fishing poles' to torque arms and back to fifth/sixth coils. Each has their benefit and issues; personally haven't ran a torque arm (now called pull bar) in about 30 years, but will say they worked well back in the day. I would put it on the list of things you need to make sure are functioning correctly; wrong length, placement, pinion angle, etc. will most definitely cause you issues. Not saying it is a huge change piece at the track for tuning (although there is some use for that), but miss on the other pieces and you will be chasing your tail-literally.

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Originally Posted by EvelB7

There is a 'feel' associated with each one. I am old enough to have been through a huge variety of 'lift' devices, from reece bars and the fiberglass 'fishing poles' to torque arms and back to fifth/sixth coils. Each has their benefit and issues; personally haven't ran a torque arm (now called pull bar) in about 30 years, but will say they worked well back in the day. I would put it on the list of things you need to make sure are functioning correctly; wrong length, placement, pinion angle, etc. will most definitely cause you issues. Not saying it is a huge change piece at the track for tuning (although there is some use for that), but miss on the other pieces and you will be chasing your tail-literally.

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Somehow I completely missed the OP's YouTube link.

Question? How much does the rear-end housing move laterally once car is on the bars? When car is "up" is the J-Bar flat (ends at same height) so no more lateral movement induced assuming track is fairly smooth?

What I'm wondering, since the car is On-The-Bars soon as it's rolling now, any deck height increase when on the track HAS to be from lift arm? Again...assuming the RR lower link starts at couple degrees down when viewed from RR. I mean frame attachment end closer to ground than birdcage. That way even with some "up" angle (couple degrees) of upper would be a wash. The RR wheelbase doesn't change that much in roll due to bar angles? Most of roll steer is from LR bar angles.

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Originally Posted by EvelB7

There is a 'feel' associated with each one. I am old enough to have been through a huge variety of 'lift' devices, from reece bars and the fiberglass 'fishing poles' to torque arms and back to fifth/sixth coils. Each has their benefit and issues; personally haven't ran a torque arm (now called pull bar) in about 30 years, but will say they worked well back in the day. I would put it on the list of things you need to make sure are functioning correctly; wrong length, placement, pinion angle, etc. will most definitely cause you issues. Not saying it is a huge change piece at the track for tuning (although there is some use for that), but miss on the other pieces and you will be chasing your tail-literally.

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I'm 66. So right there with you. Only problem I have is nobody will let you look at their cars now. Last trip to pits, nearly 10 years ago, car I wanted to look at had guard dogs threatening to whip my arse. Not friendly bunch at all.

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Originally Posted by KTMLew

Somehow I completely missed the OP's YouTube link.

Question? How much does the rear-end housing move laterally once car is on the bars? When car is "up" is the J-Bar flat (ends at same height) so no more lateral movement induced assuming track is fairly smooth?

What I'm wondering, since the car is On-The-Bars soon as it's rolling now, any deck height increase when on the track HAS to be from lift arm? Again...assuming the RR lower link starts at couple degrees down when viewed from RR. I mean frame attachment end closer to ground than birdcage. That way even with some "up" angle (couple degrees) of upper would be a wash. The RR wheelbase doesn't change that much in roll due to bar angles? Most of roll steer is from LR bar angles.

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The j bar is at max angle at max hike. It's flattest at ride height.

The bars have some angle as soon as you roll. As thrust load increases, you gain angle until your chain stops the climb. Once your acceleration is low, thrust is also low.

Typically, no chassis height comes from the lift bar, at least on the lr, as it will max from bar geometry. The lift bar can definitely impact rr height.

Yes, most of the steer is from the left side.

The difference in a pull bar and a lift bar is that the lift bar is lifting and the pullbar is adding compression load to the suspension links. That added compression then alters tire load according to the suspension geometry.