Left Rear Spring Falling Out

[hot_rod]

We are closing in on the upcoming season and I think that I might have an issue with my left rear spring falling out while on the track. We have been building a new chassis for the 2011 season and I think that we have installed the spring bucket to high to allow the 13" spring to work properly. I dont think that we have a coil bind problem. Just the fact the spring probably wont stay under the car when it rolls over in the corner. I currently have a 13" 250lbs in the left rear, we are not done with all of the fabrication yet, but overall weight should be right at 3200lbs with me in the car. We have not been able to set ride heights yet or scale the car. I was hoping someone could give me the rate for either a 16" or 20" spring, knowing what I have currently. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[dirt2]

What rates will you use for the other three springs?
What percentages will you use for left,rear & crossweight?
Out of 18-20 cars that i work with no one has had a spring to
fall out or the left rear or get up off the spring.
dirt2

[hot_rod]

RF - 1100 I am pretty sure that these are the right sides, but maybe vice versa on the front springs
LF - 1200
RR - 200
LR - 250

Percentages are appx's: Rear 55%
Left 51%
Cross 49%
Percentages are without me in the car.

The reason that we are thinking that it might fall out is when the shock is extended all of the way out on the left rear the spring is almost 4" from the spring cup (which floats on the jack because it is screwed onto the bottom of the jack bolt). when the car is just sitting on the ground it doesnt look like there will be an issue, but when we jack the left side up it pretty much falls out. We have been trying to simulate some of the roll over, to see if it will fall out.

[raceman17]

Add a chain to the leftside axle housing to the frame at the length needed to keep the spring in the bucket. Either that or get a longer spring. You dont want to be messing around with a spring falling out of the car everytime you jack up the frame or worse yet is have the wrecker pick you up from the rear of the car and have your springs fall out and roll down the track.

[hot_rod]

What I was asking for was spring rate conversions from a 13" 250 to a 16" or 20" spring. I really dont want to put a chain and limit the amount of rollover that the car will have. I want the weight transfer. If someone could give me a ballpark number of what spring rates I would need in a 16 or 20 that would be the same as a 13" rated at 250lbs.

[stock car driver]

Changing to a taller spring doesnt change your spring rate. put 16s in the back and move on.

[hot_rod]

If I put in a 250lb 16" in place of the 13" 250lb, would that not effect the set up of the car. I.E. ride heights, wheel percentages. The jack bolt would have to be screwed out quite a bit for everything to be the same would it not. I have never tried a 16" spring, hence why I started this thread. I thought that with the whole three wheeling thread the idea was that you wanted a taller lesser rated spring because of compression.

[stock car driver]

Of course you would have to screw the wt jack out.

[dirttrackrocker]

The taller spring won't affect anything. Yes you will have to back the weight jack off some, but it doesn't change anything from a weight to the wheel standpoint. A 250 lb spring means it takes 250 pounds to compress that spring 1" it doesn't matter how tall the spring is.

[hot_rod]

Of course you would have to screw the wt jack out.

That wouldnt leave me much room for changing track conditions on race night.


Would I need to replace both rear springs or just the left side with the 16"s. I have 11" jack bolts but with 16" in the rear I wouldnt have a lot left.

[keithbaker]

I would try to not turn my jack bolts at the track. Just change wheel offset, add remove wheel spacers, mess with stagger, air pressure, etc. If you are putting a 250 16in spring in to replace the 250 13in just leave in the 13in. Shock travel will probably keep it from falling out.

[bushracing67]

hmmm, so far a real lack of help from the peanut gallery..... a longer spring of the same rate would change nothing other than where the jack bolt is set, if you car weighs 3200, assuming about 53% rear with 100# of bite would be 898# on lr=3.592" of compression on the 250# spring. putting you at 9.408" at ride height, to compare a 20" 100# spring would measure about 11.02" at ride height, and a 16" 125" would measure 8.816" at ride height... i hope that answers your question, if you are using harder tires or racing on a dry slick track i would start with the 20" spring, if you are using bigger/softer tires or racing on a tacky track try the 16 first, i have played with the 20" and concluded that it tends to hurts me on a heavy track, i just bought a 16 to mess with in heats and heavier nights to see what it does, as far as moving/changing at the track do not be afraid to make changes, just record what you are doing, if you want to change a spring on one corner of the car simply reset ride height of that corner with the driver in the car and it will not effect the weights of the other 3 corners of the car

[hot_rod]

First off I would like to thank BushRacing67, that is exactly the information that I was looking for. As far as you said about the the slick track/hard tire or heavy track/soft tire, we have to run a stock DOT tire (I try to run BF Goodrich Radial T/A's when I can afford them). The track normal starts out heavy in the heats then turns really dry slick for the features. Our track will normally run 6 classes a night with UMP Modifieds being the main show. So with your recommendation for a 16" or 20" spring, I kinda have a combination of the two. If I was better off money wise right now, I would just buy both and try them. But I am pretty financially restraint right now. I am preparing to separate from the Navy and wont start my new job for a little bit. For the time being (until I can afford both springs) which one would you recommend me to purchase.

Now for the rest of you (Jeff): I have tried to utilize the information that was given, but for the most part failed miserably. Mainly stock car driver, that info was useless. I thought that I was pretty clear as to what I was asking for, but I guess not. I realize that I am only coming up on my second year in a stock car, but I am not to stupid to know that if I put in a spring that has the same rate just taller I would have to raise the jack bolt. I am not trying to do that. You can try it on your car and let us know how it works for you. I dont see how that would help a thing. So if you have anything that is useful, I would greatly appreciate the information otherwise I will use what BushRacing67 has said.

To Keith Baker: I appreciate your opinion, but the shock travel is the main reason why I am thinking that I will have the issue or the spring falling out. The way that we have the shock set up it has a lot more rollover travel than the spring will allow. As far as jack bolt changes, I dont have any spacer or different offset wheels. Right now, I have enough wheels to go racing and not tear any up. Jack bolt changes if recorded are a pretty cheap of making adjustments. All you have to do is reset all of the jack bolts to the way that it was set up on the scales and you are pretty much back to where you started (within a small margin of error).

[bushracing67]

on the dot tires i would go with the 20" spring, it was slowing me down in heavy heat races, but i run american racer late model tires, so i have a lot more drive right off the bat, glad i could help..... i thought your question was pretty clear lol

[stock car driver]

Now for the rest of you (Jeff): I have tried to utilize the information that was given, but for the most part failed miserably. Mainly stock car driver, that info was useless. I thought that I was pretty clear as to what I was asking for, but I guess not. I realize that I am only coming up on my second year in a stock car, but I am not to stupid to know that if I put in a spring that has the same rate just taller I would have to raise the jack bolt. I am not trying to do that. You can try it on your car and let us know how it works for you. I dont see how that would help a thing. So if you have anything that is useful, I would greatly appreciate the information otherwise I will use what BushRacing67 has said.

Boy you told me.

I answered your exact question in your first post... you clearly asked for what rate 16 or 20 inch spring to put in to replace your 13 based on the information you gave........ If you fail to see that I answered your EXACT question you are in fact STUPID.... Go read your first post if you can find it.


Like I said boy you told me, bahahaha!!!

It is true there is no such thing as a dumb question, JUST DUMB guys asking them and even DUMBER guys who when you answer their question want to argue with you, lol...

[stock car driver]

I was hoping someone could give me the rate for either a 16" or 20" spring, knowing what I have currently. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

SEE right there above??? I quoted from your first post....

This is what I answered even though you forgot to put the ? at the end...

[hot_rod]

Jeff
Yes, you answered my exact question. I already knew that I could just put another 250lb 16" spring in the back, but if you had read on to the other post that I had posted (the one before you had posted) and it clearly states that I was asking for a "spring rate conversions from a 13" 250 to a 16" or 20" spring". Not for someone to tell me that I need to put the same spring only longer in it. I realize that you are the Champion of the Ice Bowl and Bama Bash and I am not any kind of champion in racing. You have been around racing long enough to know that you don't want an 11" jack bolt sticking 10" out of the jack plate, that's just stupid. I do apologize if I wasn't clear enough in the beginning. I am trying to be perfectly clear now, all I wanted was the spring rate for a 16" or 20" that compress and be the same length as my current 13" spring. That question has already been answered in some detail by another fellow racer. So again let me apologize for being a beginner racer and not knowing that others couldn't interpret what I was asking. Oh ya let me apologize for leaving the question mark off at the end of my sentence, I didn't know that grammar was such a hot topic on 4m.net.

[Dirtrunner35]

First off I would like to thank BushRacing67, that is exactly the information that I was looking for. As far as you said about the the slick track/hard tire or heavy track/soft tire, we have to run a stock DOT tire (I try to run BF Goodrich Radial T/A's when I can afford them). The track normal starts out heavy in the heats then turns really dry slick for the features. Our track will normally run 6 classes a night with UMP Modifieds being the main show. So with your recommendation for a 16" or 20" spring, I kinda have a combination of the two. If I was better off money wise right now, I would just buy both and try them. But I am pretty financially restraint right now. I am preparing to separate from the Navy and wont start my new job for a little bit. For the time being (until I can afford both springs) which one would you recommend me to purchase.

Now for the rest of you (Jeff): I have tried to utilize the information that was given, but for the most part failed miserably. Mainly stock car driver, that info was useless. I thought that I was pretty clear as to what I was asking for, but I guess not. I realize that I am only coming up on my second year in a stock car, but I am not to stupid to know that if I put in a spring that has the same rate just taller I would have to raise the jack bolt. I am not trying to do that. You can try it on your car and let us know how it works for you. I dont see how that would help a thing. So if you have anything that is useful, I would greatly appreciate the information otherwise I will use what BushRacing67 has said.

To Keith Baker: I appreciate your opinion, but the shock travel is the main reason why I am thinking that I will have the issue or the spring falling out. The way that we have the shock set up it has a lot more rollover travel than the spring will allow. As far as jack bolt changes, I dont have any spacer or different offset wheels. Right now, I have enough wheels to go racing and not tear any up. Jack bolt changes if recorded are a pretty cheap of making adjustments. All you have to do is reset all of the jack bolts to the way that it was set up on the scales and you are pretty much back to where you started (within a small margin of error).

How much is your spring compressed now ?

[keithbaker]

Try this equation for spring rates, force/(spring height - compressed height)=spring rate

[stock car driver]

Jeff
Yes, you answered my exact question. I already knew that I could just put another 250lb 16" spring in the back, but if you had read on to the other post that I had posted (the one before you had posted) and it clearly states that I was asking for a "spring rate conversions from a 13" 250 to a 16" or 20" spring". Not for someone to tell me that I need to put the same spring only longer in it. I realize that you are the Champion of the Ice Bowl and Bama Bash and I am not any kind of champion in racing. You have been around racing long enough to know that you don't want an 11" jack bolt sticking 10" out of the jack plate, that's just stupid. I do apologize if I wasn't clear enough in the beginning. I am trying to be perfectly clear now, all I wanted was the spring rate for a 16" or 20" that compress and be the same length as my current 13" spring. That question has already been answered in some detail by another fellow racer. So again let me apologize for being a beginner racer and not knowing that others couldn't interpret what I was asking. Oh ya let me apologize for leaving the question mark off at the end of my sentence, I didn't know that grammar was such a hot topic on 4m.net.

You forgot to apologize for being STUPID.