No acceleration at all, but runs great?? At the end of my rope. .

[rodb63]

After 2 years of frustration, I’m offering a 100$ reward to help me find lost acceleration.
I’m the guy racing a Hydroplane out in the Seattle area. I race a Ford N-head (351) stock stroke, I have 2 twin engines basically, at about 12-1 compression and both dynoed at about 580 HP, great numbers and I have the Dyno sheet I”ll try to post. Both are now acting like pigs, I have Zero acceleration.

From 2003 (until I cooked the heads in 06), this boat really accelerated GREAT through the corners and all the way down the shoot like the N-heads do. I was on top of my class. After burning the heads (my fault), I was forced to use RHS 200’s (N-heads were not made for a year or so), anyway the RHS heads were great, won several races but no where near the power, about 510 when dynoed. I bought 2 sets of N-heads in 08 adding a 2nd engine, 2 N-head engines, I was in heaven. One Dynoed at about 580, one at just under that, both at about 12-1 cr. The last 2 races of 2008 through this last weekend, over 2 years, I have no acceleration at all. I can’t touch the Speeds of the former RHS headed engine. Not close. Never misses a beat, runs great, barely getting over 7000 RPM and was getting 8000 abouts back in 2003-2005. I’m saying it goes fast, but I’m getting wiped by my competitors right at the start, waving bye bye. Getting my a$$ handed to me.

Well 2009, 2010 not a race went by where I didn’t try something. After talking with an MSD guru (Pat), we found we had voltage drop. So for 2011 I added an alternator.

Well my first race was this last weekend, and I gained 4-500 RPM, not bad but STILL no acceleration at all. It was just faster but sluggish in the corner and takes the entire straight to get to 74-7500 but still dead. I would not be typing all this if I didn’t get thrown back in the seat a few years back. I really did. I was amazed at the pull down the straight aways, going this slow is unbelievable now.
In fact my equipment back then was not near what I have now, and I threw wires together myself back then. I have a long list below telling what I’ve already done. Keep in mind I have 2 engines, same results, same cam. I even put in the first cam that rocked (Clay Smith) and its dead now too, now I’m running a slightly bigger comp cam designed for my boat and it Dynoed across the board about 20 more HP and TQ better than the clay smith. Flat tappet. .580 lift after lash. About 180 seat pressure. (tried 190) I can add more Data when I get home. Some may think the problem is in the boat, well the thrust bearing is not wearing out fast at all, and the boat is the same, with added grounds, better wiring, grounds, etc.
One recent thought is, use Ti intake valves, as I’m running hollow ferrea steel valves now. I had Ti intakes when it ran fast. steel Ex.
Wouldn’t the steel Ferrea hollow valves at LEAST be fast and accelerate at some point, and up to a certain RPM? like 3000-7000, or 4000 to 7000?
When it was fast it accelerated from 3000 to 8000, no kidding, direct drive prop shaft. Bushings clearances fine, shafts are straight etc.
When I race its between 6200 now to 7400-7500 depending on prop, but that’s with a TINY prop. The bigger prop that I won with (yrs ago) is 12.5 Dia, X 22 pitch, its going at 7000 now, and was at 7800-8000 a few yrs ago.
I’m gaining, getting more speed, probably due to alternator but no acceleration anywhere and runs great, sounds great. No misses. The following is a list of what I’ve tried and changed. Yes I spent some $, that’s in the past.


1- Drilled a 1 inch hole in the Distributor cap to see my exact rotor phasing.
2- Tried 2 (newer) MSD distributors. 3 coils, 3 different MSD boxes, all had the correct Coils to match. Incl. (2) HVC box and (1) “6al”.
3- All new battery cables (Welding cables) 2 ga. (Had good 1 ga prior)
4- Disconnected Tachometer to see if this was the cause, (no affect). Also new switches and new MAIN Battery on-off switch.
5- honed out propeller shaft bushings WAY out to make sure there was no rubbing. Shaft straight.
6- Carb, replaced 600 HP (by rule) from TACO with one from “Pro systems”. Both carbs for my application, no change.
7- Changed from 110 Vitron Needle and seat to .120 size, then went to Bo Laws Bottom feed .120 needle and seat to assure no foaming. No change.
8- All fuel lines new, #10 to pump, #8 to reg/carb. Nice BLP Log.
9- With and without power valves with proper jet adjustments.
10- Fuel pressure ok, tried 4 to 9, at 6.5 now per Bill H. (I will miss him, RIP)
11- Bought a 2nd Victor Jr and had it matched and cleaned up, No change (waste of $).
12- Ran with Air filter. different race fuels (C12, Renegade 110, Sunnoco supreme 112, Rocket 111.)
13- Grounds from heads to block, Battery grounded to block, small grounds are on Aluminum engine rail with a #4 cable to block (same place Batt ground is connected).
14- Shaft is perfectly straight with correct clearance. Thrust bearing replaced.
15- Oddessey “925” to a “1200” battery (no change).
16- Changed my fuel filter to 100 microns (was 10 microns). No change
17- Moved Magnetic pick up wire and coil wires away from all others, also shielded wire for msd.
18- Lowered plug gap from .035 to .025
19- Changed to gibbs XP6 synthetic oil. (due to 270 deg oil temps)
20- tried timing from 25 – 31 (31 tops per Bill H. as he knows the N-head)
21- valve lash at .022 cold (Card says .020). Tried .024 cold too, nothing there.
22- Accelerated like raped ape with 1” tapered HVC spacer, have tried others, went back to HVC spacer as a constant.
23- move MSD to front of engine away from other wiring, battery, etc. install to bulkhead of (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit. All Wires moved away from others best I could.
24- Complete rewire of all small wiring (dash and grounds etc). fuel pump & coil housing.
25- Ground coil, Batt to block, straps from heads to block, then to engine rail, from there to Batt.
26- new connectors for magnetic pickup? (Deausch).
27- check spark plug wires 300 ohms a ft. New from “Scotts”. Best I know of.
28- Fuel tank test, Magnafuel 275 pump ran 15 min, removed cap fast, no air. Return line good flow, flow from log good. Pressure good. Sent pump to Magnafuel for check etc. Previously did try back up BG 220 pump, same results.
29- With and without power valves, correct jetting changes.
30- New Valve springs, tried AT and above the pressure that Comp recommends.
31- I tried an air Scoop sealed, no help so now for a constant I’m running a 14 X 5 RC2 race filter.
32- stiffer push rods (from 3/8 .080 wall to 7/16 .165 wall.)
33- Oh, last night I ran it for a minute in the total dark, looking for sparks / arcing, nothing founf at all.
34- The T&D shaft rockers at 1.6, are slightly hitting the retainers/springs, but not terrible, clearance them.


Can there still be a wiring issue besides a bad tach?
Questions, ask away. If you want my timing to go up, you don’t know a lot about the N-heads, that’s not the problem. Bill recommended at 31. Most of what I read is N-head people like 25 deg to about 29 deg timing.

I’m open for suggestions to try this weekend, going to another race but only tests for me to figure this out once and for all.
Thinking of trying float bowl extensions, try my 2003 Mels Distributor with my HVC Black MSD box. Ran it that way in 2003 only, the boat was fast with 2 different MSD Distributors though.
Any ideas.
Thank you all so much. I’ll gladly call anyone who wants more info.
Rod, rodb63@yahoo.com (206) 650-6774

[4bangerhotrod]

have you tried to advance the cam a few degrees. that should help with bottom end

[rodb63]

My Builder has done everything he can, assuring me its in the same placce it was when it was fast. He has changed the cam timing. Made it worse actually. Maybe I failed to really say what my problem is. I"m not down on acceleration, I have none, I"m being walked away from like a rope tied to my waist, TOTALLY no power coming out of the corner. None. Tuning tricks have been done, believe me. Jetting, air bleeds, timing up and down. Air scoop to forse air in, a pro stock style scoop, cam timing, but all those are small changes. I do have some rpm but zero acceleration. My apologies for repeating myself.
Runs great though. I"m one of the better starters as we use a clock with the hydros, timed. I start, and REALLY just wave goodbye right there.

Its really that bad, I look great by myself, but the good news is I gained about 5-6 MPH, now its a matter of finding what is slowing me down like a Break.

Thank you, I do appreciate your input a lot!

[rodb63]

A few more items, We have checked the balencer, its not moving at all. The flywheel has had lightening holes added to it.

In 2005, I was racing a fast bioat and had nothing coming out of the corners just like now, but it would take off half way down the shoot like crazy, then I'd loose it every corner and have nothing until half way, well my valve lash was suppose to be at 020 and I for some reason had them all at .016, way off. Well the part where I had nothing then, is ESACTLY the feeling I have now but it NEVER takes off. Thats the feeling, like my lash is at 16.
Here is something though, my T&D rockers are hitting/scraping the spring/retainer area, I've clearanced that, knowing I'm not suppose to really cut at that area, but it has done that recently. I"ll check in a few hours when I get home to see if its still doing that. Had T&D rockers ever slowed anyone down?

My Intake valves were really beating the seats hard last year in this current engine now, to a point where the seats had to be cut fairly deep to clean them up, so my builder put a basic valve job on it instead of what he does for race engines normally because he wants to see this problem solved without spending more $. Can my Ferrea steel valves be bouncing even though they have good spring pressure (180 on seat)
last year and never went over about 7000 RPM?

I'm guessing someone is going to get on this and tell my I have more than one issue. WEll, I never get towed in, keep my program running pretty good actually, but PLEASE fire away, I like getting it straight.

[fast_crew]

By chance where the valve locks stuck in the retainers?? This and the seat pounding are sure signs of valve float and bounce. Maybe the Ti valves where enough to keep the valve train under control and soften the closing of the valve so that it didn't bounce. It is generaly normal practice to clearance the rockers alittle if they are touching. What is your open pressure and what springs are you running?

[rodb63]

Josh, interesting,
The locks were sticking somewhat in the retainers, not bad but it rings a bell.
I was thinking the Ferrea hollow stnls were just a little heavier but after reading they are substantially hevier than Ti. I'll buy Ti intakes new, but I'm looking for used right now. I've been running 190, and now 180 pressure, I"ll check when I get home on the open pressure. I want to see if they are rubbing still anyway.
A friend asked if my T&D rockers were there when the boat went fast.
No, I had crower stud mount rockers. I've only used this one set of T&D the last 2 years plus with this set up. And the boat is acting like I have the lash WAY too tight, only the cam never comes to life. Then again it dynoed great, hows that if the valves are bouncing.
When I ran the RHS heads, I had Ti intakes still, after the RHS heads the Ti intakes were starting to tulip, so to save $ on 2 engines we went to ferrea.
My head guy told me the intake seats were hammered on REALLY bad, really hard. There were also signs of heat getting into the intake ports.
Is that big? I was going to run this weekend and pull these heads, check them out and then maybe put ti intakes in the other engine by next race in 5 weeks.

[hpontap]

Were the orginal set of N heads orted and by whom? Were both sets of heads flowed and if so, did the numbers change? It really sounds to me like you have a set of heads that are opened up too much or in other words, the port velocity is down. If the port speed is down until the RPM's come up, then there will be no acceleration until the engine gets up in the RPM range to pull the air in.

[rodb63]

In 2003 I ordered them I think, from that place that sells Ford parts and went out of Business, popular place, I talked with the owner and know the place if you say it. Anyway I had them sent to Kenny troutman, he did some opening by my request porting, and these I have now were from the new batch in 08, (Stan at FPA got them for me out here) not ported at all but flow very close to the old ones I'm told. I can only run a 600 HP holley by rule, but I think I'm ok.
Yes they were all flowed.

Can this engine do well on the dyno but in the boat have valve bounce to affect Tq and acceleration? It Dynoed by the way not only 580 HP but went to 8200 RPM (against my will) but it SCREAMED! then in the boat dropped way off dead.
Can it not have that bounce on the Dyno, but have Valve bounce all the way down to 4000 RPM in the boat? I
Thanks.

[fast_crew]

Where the old rockers also 1.6 ratio, have you verified the ratio? Heat in the intake port, has to be reversion from something I would think. Intake valves not sealing or bouncing, lack of velocity, to early of an IVO event, to much exhaust back pressure, Restriction in exhaust, that wasn't present on the dyno? Just some more ideas.

[rodb63]

Yes Josh, they were also 1.6 ratio, I am running headers, 1 3/4 into 3 1/2 coll.
IVO event?? Whats IVO?
leads me to a question, 2 of the things that changed from FAST to SLOW, 1- went from Ti intake valves to Ferrea Steel, 2- went from Crower stud mount roller rockers to T&D shaft rockers, both 1.6.
Could going to shaft rocker have caused all this?
Could going to steel Intake valves cause a complete loss of accelleration?
I have spent enough $ trying to find the gremlin.
No Accelleration for 2 seasons, those Steel intakes should have been just fine, so since they HAMMERED the seats hard, maybe they hammered on them all the way from 4000 rpm to 7000, is that possible?
OK I'm starting to sound like an idiot, my mind goes back to "Great dyno pulls".
Its easy for me to say the problem has to be in the boat, but I've gone through about everything possible (List in first post). With this intake valve issue and heat in the intake ports, I can't help but to think thats a HUGE problem that should be the culprit. Good valve springs, tested. Reversion? could that be whats slowing me down?
Once again, its like having too tight of valve lash that eliminates bottom end, and never comes on.
Has anyone ever Dynoed great, and at the track had zero acceleration?

[rodb63]

Verified Ratio? thats interesting, no I haven't. How do I do that?
I'll call T&D, never know.
Dyno performance should not have been so good if it was 1.5 I would think...
Every I think of something or someone gives a good path to follow, theres always something that proves "It can't be that".
Thanks for tolerating me on this, 2 GD Seasons plus, I get out of the boat after every heat pi___d. .................. "HYDROPLANE FOR SALE!"

[SLM98]

I have seen anything about header sizes, I'm sure differnt headers were used on the dyno than ended up in the boat.

[rodb63]

Same Headers used on Dyno are used in boat. Dyno did not have N-head headers avail so I drilled holes for EGT.
I bought another set, same size.

Open headers, 1 3/4 primary and 3 1/2 Collectors. no steps.

[rodb63]

I've been reading the last few hours searching etc.
Found something. All last year I saw tiny black spots on the Porcalain of my plugs, not shiny metal but small black spots. I read there excessive heat gets into the cylinder area and messes with the rings ?, then oil starts to get by the rings and causes those black spots. Wet plugs too? I think I see wet sometimes.
Can it be my intake valves pounding, letting Exhaust heat into intake areas, and this is getting into the piston area and messing up rings?
GD the other night doing a compression test I sware I heard slight scraping on one cylinder, scared the crap out of me. I can't hear it now. No metal in filter, I use a Pure power filter, cleanable, very nice to look for metal.

Thanks guys. I know I have power, and I have a new engine waiting, but I"m NOT putting it through this crap at all. Running this weekend, will watch hard. Can detonation cause valve bounce at all? Or is it the other way around like I"m assuming from logic.

[DaveBauerSS6]

I am assuming this is a single engine craft. Is the torque curve similar between the previous engine and present? As you know torque vs prop selection is critical.

You mentioned EGT; do you have a data recorder for them??. High or low temp will indicate tuneup and some mechanical issues. Verify temp on several cylinders for balance.

If the craft bottom has not been changed and is maintained, it sounds like its in the drive.

Change the prop, untill the motor is maxed out at the end of the straight. That will the improve your corner exit.
Good luck.

[rodb63]

My EGT's ha ve been VERY hot, I have a guage to my Left front Cyl.
Its been 1400 deg, I got it down to just over 1350 last weekend so I think I'm getting that under control. a little.
I don't have a data collector, I should I know but pricy.
If you guys decide the best thing for me is Ti intake valves I'm spending 800.
I'd like to not get a data collector.
Last years engine showed HUGE amounts of valve pounding, could thids have something to do with EGT's. I"m always wondering if I'm jetted too high with fuel burning in the header or just lean.
With 6.5 power valves, I'm at 88 jets. Altitude 1000 feet or so.

[DaveBauerSS6]

If you guys decide the best thing for me is Ti intake valves I'm spending 800.

You'll just be burning more money.

A 580 lift cam with the correct spring will run fine in the 7000 rpm range with steel valves. If You want insurance and have money to spend, get the TI. The builder would have identified a problem on the dyno if something was wrong.You stated it was a pig from the builder.
Compare torque curves and consider that this is a boat. Tremendous drag needs torque. If the torque curve on the new motor is very steep it wont accelerate fast. It can be so steep that you may never feel the power at the top end, because you run out of track. Most dirt track guys complain that the motor pulls hard after the flag stand, same problem. Reducing the duration of the cam will correct this.
Bet you put that motor in a mustang with 4.11 gears and it will take your breath.

[DaveBauerSS6]

Torque curve

[rodb63]

Dyno and Cam info below
OK this is a Hydroplane, it is race only, full on race and requires a crane to get into the water. It rides on the water and air as a 3 point hydroplane, no drag believe me as it is on top of the water. I race circles with it, at sanctioned APBA races, google my name or see pictures on Face book its Rod Bourke not many of those. I hide nothing on FB so all pics should be there. OK my engine is VERY Similar to Late Model, but I"m required to have a 600 HP holley. I have dyno sheets, and a cam card with me now, I'll post some data here but I"ll gladly send the dyno info to anyone who e-mails me at
rodb63@yahoo.com
OK in 2003 I started, and this engine ROCKED and ROLLED all the way through the corners and through the shoots (3000 to 7800 rpm), went like a raped Ape, 351 N-headed Ford. In 2006 I reversed a water valve and COOKED the heads, big cracks through both so the only thing available at that time was RHS heads for me so I chose 200's. That was my first Dyno, 510 HP, have sheet. That 510 motor did not have the n-head power, but won a lot of races, OK N-heads came available in 08 so I had a 2nd engine built so 2 n-headed engines. One with new comp cam one with CLay smith cam that previously rocked as far as tq curve. The comp cam had about 20 more hp and tq all the way from 4000 rpm on up. BUT these engines would not push the boat at all, even now. It goes fast but with a tiny 20 inch pitch prop barely over 7000 rpm. Before I was getting a 22 inch pitch prop easiyl to 7800, and 8200 at the kilo records (Straights). So what you've read to now has been my issue since getting these 2 new n-heeaded engines going, I'm wearing them out with no get up and go, just some speed but getting left at the start finish like no tomorrow. The 22 inch pitch prop goes only to 6800 now, 1000 rpm off, and yes its a PIG. The cam is in it just like the dyno and when it ran great years ago.
As said before, its like my lash is too tight, but when I actually did that in 2005, the cam kicked in half way through the straights, now it never kicks in, just struggles to accelerate. All I can see is a little detonatin, and severe valve bounce, but can this valve bounce be all the way from 3000 on up? or is it only at high RPM? The springs are new, 180 spring pressure at seat. Comp calls for 170 tops.
Here you go, below;
4600 rpm 472 tq 413 hp
5000 rpm 493 tq 469 hp
5500 rpm 495 tq 519 hp
6000 rpm 474 tq 542 hp
6500 rpm 465 tq 575 hp
7000 rpm 437 tq 582 hp
7500 rpm 400 tq 571 hp
7700 rpm 389 tq 570 hp

Cam card. comp cam grind FW 6032 SN# L 4959-07
gross lift .600 both, lash .020 Dur at .050 = 270 / 270
lobe lift .375 Lobe Seperation 107
107 intake centerline

[SLM98]

Ever have trouble with the intake valve lash tightening up?