No acceleration at all, but runs great?? At the end of my rope. .

[rodb63]

Question, is there any way Valve lash can tighen up as much as .006, .008, .010 or more (?) while racing, and then come back to normal as engine cools? or as engine is now stopped?
Heat can change but only a few, and I compensate for .002, per you guys here.
Last week I set it at .024 (usually .022) and nothing, even at the end, this engine acts like the lash is .010 too tight, or more.

I"m praying to sove my issue, although I'm BEATING my intake seats to death at the moment, that can do it I know, but remember I have 2 twin engines that dynoed great, and neither accelerate in the hydroplane, not at all.

Thanks, it was brought up a day or 2 ago concerning sticky keepers, I"m checking the lash cold tonight, (should be cold 24).
Question, if by cam card I always adjust to .022, can I make it .026 or even 028 just to try it? What is too far?
Thanks for getting me thinking on this.

[SLM98]

This is a flat tappet cam?

[rodb63]

Yes, flat tappet.

[SLM98]

I had this happen, valve lash would tighten up .005 in a night of racing(80 laps). Tried more spring pressure which actually made it worse.Put coated valves in, that almost solved the problem down to .002 tighter. The problem was the intake lobes on the cam were too aggresive and the valve train was out of control.It would hit a certain rpm and wouldn't pull anymore.Lighter valves help this as well as a spring thats matched to the cam.Also don't trust Comp springs, they have changed manufacters of there springs, you may think you are getting the same spring but may be a different frecrency.

[rodb63]

SLM,
I'll be glad to buy a set of new Ti int valves, and pay for the correct seats, but I cannot get the least bit of assurance from my builder, my head guy, the Dyno guy or this board, including comp, Ferrea, Del west, that will say its even probably the solution.
This is why,
The engines (2) are dead from top to bottom acceleration wise, none. Was your engine lacking that the entire rpm band? Wouldnt these Ferrea valves be at least good to 4000? 5000? 6000?
Can someone say "Yes its possible to have the entire rpm band to be down on acceleration", but no one will, so no ti valves, my T&D rockers look great, could they really be slowing me down?
My cam card is a few posts back, was it close to yours as far as too aggressive?
Both engines dynoed well, I posted some Dyno data, same post as cam data.
No response, none, NADA. This and getting my F_____ ass kicked for over 2 GD seasons is why I'm offering money for help. I"ll pay, I sent $150 to Pat at Tech west racing for his help on this, he helped me find voltage drop and that added speed but accelleration is gone still. Money well spent as he gave me a lot of phone time trying to help. I paid Tom McCumber in Oregon $125 0r something like that for his time on the phone, well worth it, smart man and good ford guy but I'm still a pig. I have an engine guy and a head guy, the engine guy does not have a clue, he would be responsible for where the cam is. My head guy keeps fixiung my heads but now I can't get help from him, no response when I asked to look for valve bounce on the heads he has now, NADA, He is waiting for me to decide on Ti valves or not. Crap you think that dumb ass would know more than me. A head guy, I'm almost done with him. Do I go to a dyno again? A better one? The one I went to I don't think had all the data.
I guess I'm cursed and ready to calll it quits.
My lash is ok, although I think it was reduced some over time last year, but I only run about 15 min wide open a weekend,. I think it had to close some, I had sticky keepers, as one poster asked. You know, I had no idea about the tighter lash or keepers sticking, when It happened I never gave it a thought. You guys are teaching me but my Babble is getting long winded and I'm no closer.

QUESTION, does anyone know a FORD N-headed guru that I can PAY him to tAlk with me for an hour.
Sorry, frustrated, I'll stop. Go back, please get my e-mail and I'll stop wasting others time here.
I think people like you are awesome, trying to help, give me advice or their story (which is great) but it stops there, This started in Sept 08, Not a single race went but without me making a valid change, here I sit like a dumb ass.
Sorry guys, I'll try to hire someone to help.
I can't thank you all enough, love this board and the people!
Rod Bourke

[DaveBauerSS6]

Do you have the cam part number? The grind number isnt coming up in the search on Comp cams. The specs on a cam card dont tell you the profile. The cam/ grind number will.

Also do you have the HP/ TQ specs from the first motor?

[362CID]

RodB do you have the specs on all your clearences inside the engine, it sounds to me like either something is just too tight or the cam is just not right, I would be leaning toward changing the cam before i did anything else but thats just my opinion.

[bushracing67]

sounds to me like you have some pre-ignition issues, back the timing to about 28, what are you using for spark plugs ? you might be way too hot on plugs, on my n-head engine i use ngk 5674-8 @.035

what are you running for a cooling system ? fresh water or a sealed system ? pump, restrictor ? what water temp are you running at ?

[rodb63]

Dave, 362cid & Bushracing67 (THANK YOU!!!)
Cam part number 35-000-5, AC Nutter chose this cam for me as he did the clay smith cam, and that Smith cam was a total rocket out of the corners and all down the straight, on the Dyno the Comp cam was about 20 more HP and TQ, I’ll post clay smith dyno data soon. I gave his name because he really knows this subject with respect to Hydroplanes, but now both cams are not doing it. Cam timing? We have checked over and over on that.

I only ran one engine all last year, 9 races totaling about 15 minutes wide open each weekend, that’s about it (4 heats each). The bearings were “like new” according to builder and that engine is in the boat now with an lower end having 2 seasons on it and a valve job after last year pounding on the seats terribly. Yes it sounds like its too tight somewhere, but it’s the same builder as when it went fast. Can it be tight and no wear showing? Boats need a bit more bearing clearances, he knows that but I don’t know what mine are. Should I call my builder and ask him? I thought that about the cam myself last year, we put back in the old Clay Smith cam (That cam had awesome acceleration) last year for 2 races, it had a total of .555 lift after lash, it was also dead, no acceleration at all. My apologies for not having that on the list, I thought it was. I even hogged out the shaft and mid strut bushings to a point where the inspectors told me to replace my bearings or I’ll pound them out. I said no, they are fine and if they pound out I’ll replace them as its not a safety issue at all, boats don’t go fast with a tight bushing around the shaft even though I had it that way first.
Cid I’ll think very hard about your note, really.

Bush, I have backed the timing all the way to 25, including 26 and 28. Looking at your plugs Bush you have the older heads that use the shorter spark plug reach? the heads I have need .908 reach, I’ve been using AR474, 473 a few times and B8EFS stock 1049 for a few times. NGK doesn’t have a race plug for this size, that’s why the B8EFS. Water is forced through the engine from the Lake/river, through a tube at the bottom of the rudder, cold. Not like a car at all. Most go IN at the water pump location and out at the heads, I just changed mine to go in at the Thermostat area and out the WP location. Both work fine for me, prefer the heads cooler and block warmer really. Water goes out between 180 and 185, I measure if just outside the block in a manifold I had made. water pressure is 30. I restrict it going in, (.185 hole) and out is at .200 or .215 .

I should probably only focus on what is wrong at this time, Valves are Pounding Hard on the seats, and signs of heat are in the intake ports , from valve bounce? Probably. Have a little detonation so I”ll go back to 27-28 timing or lower.

Question, can Valve bounce occur all the way down to 3000 RPM even with good springs?? I have ferrea hollow valves, and the cast iron seats in the head. (is this not a good combo?) When the boat was fast I only had Titanium valves, it never has accelerated at all with these Ferrea valves, not picking on them but I have to look at whats wrong. My head guy gave me an extra set of springs, said they are different because that’s all that comp cams had at that time, WTF??? I still can’t believe that.
Valve bounce is obviously a problem, Maybe if I fix that I’m fast again?

Comp cam
5000 rpm 493 tq 469 hp
5500 rpm 495 tq 519 hp
6000 rpm 474 tq 542 hp
6500 rpm 465 tq 575 hp
7000 rpm 437 tq 582 hp
7500 rpm 400 tq 571 hp

Older clay smith cam
5000 rpm 487 tq 463 hp
5500 rpm 485 tq 508 hp
6000 rpm 468 tq 534 hp
6500 rpm 447 tq 553 hp
7000 rpm 423 tq 564 hp
7500 rpm 386 tq 538 hp

[rodb63]

I have put water in both ways and both were equal, even when it was fast. I have to admit that I only dynoed with it going in the Water pump location, but yes I simulated the same cooling on dyno by using a hose/faucet and adjustable valve, .125 hole going out to get a 180 temp out.
Is it better for the head to get the warmest water or the block? I thought the block but I really don’t know. I want this right. Thanks. I like that you’re questioning which way my water direction is. A ford racer did reverse years ago and liked it (heads first) but he was old school, never dynoed.
One reason for going into heads first was I think they are hotter than normal. My oil has been 280 + degrees, that’s why I’ve been using Gibbs XP6. I have a marine oil cooler I plan to put in, that should cool it plus heat the water a tad maybe? (going in). I can’t get the cooler put in for this weekend. June 11-12 is next.

[rodb63]

The Motor starts, runs fine, takes off from shore as usual, no bogging down at all, I get going, warm up a but, hit the throttle at 4 or even 5000 rpm and it slowly speeds up, no get up and go at all.
its the same accross the board, slowly speeds up. It doesn't bog down at all, once its on plane its not pushing any water at all, its on top. Its just like being in a race car, and someone adjusted the lash at .012 instead of .020, (for example) and its just dead.
I"m going to try putting the valve lash at .026 tomorrow. (Calls for .020) just to try it, should be ok.
I'm always wondering if I"m getting hot EGT's from burning fuel, I'm sorry but I failed to tell you I use max Jets, sorry. 88 Max = 80 Holley. My apologies.
My head guy called me a while ago, he recomended putting back in the Clay smith cam since that was working good, and he also said he gave me the intakes, and that though they are a little tuliped, he said 1 race won't hurt trying them and seeing. Guess what I"ll be doing after pulling into the driveway, going right to the garage looking for those. Can't try them until June 11 though. Saves me $800.
After the race this weekend he will inspect the valves hard, and know if they are still pounding after changing to a 7/16 push rod, .165 thick.

Thanks!!

[rodb63]

I didn't think of lightening the springs, I"ll do that. Each spring has about 1/8 thick of spacers under them. Maybe I can remove about .060 on each? I have a "Seat" spring pressure checker, with the dial.
Does removing .060 sound about right to try? I guess it depends on what the difference is.

Thanks!

[rodb63]

With that, ...... So from 2003 - 2007 (well not full seasons) but in that time my Titanium intake valves are tuliped, is it possible that we had a little too much pressure on thost Ti valves, but they were ok, now with the Ferrea steel valves they don't like it?
Worth a try to remove some shims.

[362CID]

Thats something i missed too, 180 lbs on a flat tappet cam is way to much, anywhere in the 120 to 140 range is great, most every flat tappet cam i have calles for 120lbs seat pressure. this could definatly be where i am figuring something is too tight. that is also why your valves are pounding the seats in the heads, the ramps and ramp speed, closing speed of the valve on a flat tappet cam is not designed for that much spring pressure and could be the answer to that problem as well. I would look at getting the seat pressure down to somewhere between 120 and 140 lbs

[DaveBauerSS6]

!80 seat pressure is more than a normal grind should run.
The part number for your cam is a custom cam casting number and you grind is custom. A grind search is null on Comps site.
I would call comp and verify the seat pressure for this grind. That may help the valve seats.
I ve ran very high seat pressures on some custom grinds and never had this problem.
My guess was the TQ charts and it looks close enough to say that is not the problem.
On your method of readjusting the seat pressure; get your head man to measure the installed heigth of the spring, measure the springs and get the right shims from him. You dont do this right, you'll end up with junk.

[rodb63]

All, and the last 3, Thanks a bunch, well I have the tools to measure inst height, and its on black ink inside the head too, and I'll be careful. I just bought that red anodized Seat spring pressure checker. I thought he put them in at 180 but they are reading at 150, (intakes) but that is with the LSM hydraulic checker so it could be off. I also have that cheap Moroso Bending metal with a needle, not what I'm taking with me. That read 240.
Anyway this is what I have. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Hydrau...tDisplayId=601

I have some shims, and I"ll be very careful but I have to try it. I'll only adjust the intakes, should be good with that. When it was fast I only used Ti Intakes and Steel Exh, and they (ex) aren't showing bounce.
We will be in web cast, ULHRA.org we are low on boats this weekend, and its only a test for me. One heat in the afternoon (2 Sunday). I am red and white, number 5. I'm the only small block, not my normal class but its fun to run with these guys. Anyone wanting to watch text me, leave a first name and I'll know what it is and I"ll text you about 20 min before my heat. (206) 650-6774. I won't change the springs until Sunday Morning.
I feel like I'm getting close, I've tried too many things to get this acceleration back, we shall see though.
Thanks, I hope someone sees it but its a small show. (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) I can say you guys are pretty sharp at this, I'm learning a TON.
Rod

[jmdrace]

the last valve springs seems the head master as you say ground the seats and mite have done some bowl work did he do the angles on the valve and did he re shim or did he just fix and reinstall ........ i say no ignition issues no intake issues its in the valve train ,,,,,,,depending on pressure u can take a tweek outa the rockers but retainers be better,,,,,,,, also recheck the rocker ration and push rod length

[rodb63]

A tiring weekend but some results.
I had a test session Saturday and 2 heats Sunday so this gave me time for 2 tests, First Saturday I decided to make my Lash at 26, I normally put it at 22 cold (iron heads). It seemed to have a little more speed than a week ago, but still wasn't accelerating hard at all. Saturday night was my first chance at trying less spring seat pressure. I took out .060 shim from one intake spring and that reduced it from 180 lbs seat pressure to 160, I decided to take out .030 more and it was at 150 seat. Changed all intakes to 150. I was really hoping this would make a difference, no dice. Same dead Acceleration. I was wrote off line about possibly dynoeing again. Also that my problem may be in the boat. I have done several things in the boat, both loose and tight on the strut and mid strut bushings, my grounds are much better than before all new wires and tested by a friend who repairs multi meters for Fluke, he gave me a nice Fluke meter. I've dissconnected tack, using a switch on that, and yes I forgot to TOTALLY didconnect the switch, just forgot but I"ll remember next time. I'm forgetting somewhat where we left off here but I made some valid changes, dang I thought the spring pressure was a big possibility, but some didn't I know.
I apologize if anyone went to ULHRA.ORG and didn't see any "webcast". They didn't do Webcast for this race, I had no idea.
I talked to one of you by phone on my way over the mountain, WOW that guys knows a lot. Will be talking with him more, after my head clears from the weekend. Next race 5 weeks. Should I Dyno again, start at a better Dyno? I know of another thats suppose to be real good. The engine in the boat now is the candidate for that right? Not the one thats 99% ready.
Titanium valves? I'm very tempted. All the help I've recieved here has been incredible, far beyond what I was hoping for. Again, pictures are on facebook under my name. Rod Bourke, even a new one from the weekend.

Rod

[ptodd]

titanium valves is not gonna fix your problem. i would put it back on the dyno and see what happens

[SLM98]

Have you ever done a leakdown test?