Oiling issues!

[TeamTerminator]

How long should it take for oil to get up to rockers? I primed the oil system for almost 20 mins and didnt get oil up to rockers on number 1 and 2 valvetrain and rocker on number 3 cylinder while the rest had oil. The intake pushrod on cylinder 1 was also (ground) down. and 3 roller rockers had the steel insert gounded out like someone used a drill bit and drilled hole thru it.

Motor has melling 55hv oil pump, restrictors, comp lifters w/ oiling hole, PRC pushrods, and PBM roller rockers.

Is the rocker issue do to the lack of oil? should i run motor without restrictors? Leave restictors but drill bigger holes in it and take the o rings off? Any info would be nice!!!

[stock car driver]

lots of opinions on restrictors.. generally its said if you run oiling lifters dont run restrictors.

i always drill them out to 1/8 which isnt much of a restrictor when I do run them though.

I also never run a hv pump just hp. hv takes hp and its my understanding leads to higher oil temps.

loose lash can damage pushrods and the rockers, did you have that?

[TeamTerminator]

Each time i check the valve lash a few where loose but only like a few thousandth. I drilled out the restrictor .125 and took rubber seal off and put back in. should i just take out restrictor? Im guessing my rocker issues were the cause of the lack of oil to the rocker? I have oil pan off right now (rear main seal leaked terrible). Think ill change oil pump while its off. Thanks for the suggestions Jeff always appreciate ur expertice.

[stock car driver]

Your restrictors arent doing much like that, I would say they didnt cause you oil issues.


check inside your pushrods for gunk they can be too full inside to allow oil to flow, silicone can block them easily.

other than that I would lean towards loose lash hurting the rockers and pushrod ends. also brand of pushrods can be a factor.


Ive ran 20$ pushrods for years, the hardened ones with the balls on the ends and recently went to 119$ ones for peace of mind and because Ive broke a few balls off at times over the years.

[Egoracing]

Here are some articles for you to read that may help you with oil pump choices. The one thing that most engine builders will tell you is that you want a lot of oil, Oil cools ans lubricates and also adds a layer of protection that keeps the metals apart. High pressure indicated that it is moving oil quickly but in no way indicates how much oil. High pressure can damage the bearings and not allow enough oil to cool the surface, think of a pressure washer trying to put out a house fire compared to a 4 inch water line at 20 psi. The pressure washer is putting out MUCH more pressure but it not nearly enough volume to cool and put out the fire. This is the same in the engine, all you want is about 10 PSI per 1000 RPM with standard equipment. Some engine builders are at 3-6 PSI per 1000 and drag cars are into the 1-2 PSI using thin synthetics.
I would take a very good look at the pushrods and lifters, remember thought that those areas are the farthest point on the oiling system and you may have issues closer to the pump that are stopping oil flow from them, bypass valve on the oil filter adapter may be blocked open or the sping may be soft, bad adapter not sealing to the block or a bad or blocked bypass spring on the pump.. When you did the pump up with the drill did you turn the engine over by hand during?
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...mps/index.html
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...oil_pumps.aspx
http://www.stockcarracing.com/techar...ock/index.html

High-pressure pumps are really stock-volume pumps with a stronger spring backing up the pressure relief valve. This means that an oil pump must raise its pressure to a higher level before the relief valve opens and dumps oil back into the pan. If this extra pressure is not needed, then the engine is using horsepower to pump oil to a peak pressure that is unnecessary--thus resulting in less power to the wheels. An additional loss is that windmilling the unneeded oil back into the pan aerates the oil and raises its temperature. A higher oil temperature can also affect the engine by raising the water temperature.

[Emma121]

Re: Oiling problems, blown motors and the NHTSA
A couple of comments:

1) NHTSA is looking into it, because the failure of the oil line may cause an accident. You could argue that an engine failure at speed could do the same, but I don't think they will look at it the same way if the failure is contained.

2) If you really want to complain, go to the NHTSA site and register each of your complaints there.

ed

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[perfconn]

Ego is right on.

[stock car driver]

Here are some articles for you to read that may help you with oil pump choices. The one thing that most engine builders will tell you is that you want a lot of oil, Oil cools ans lubricates and also adds a layer of protection that keeps the metals apart. High pressure indicated that it is moving oil quickly but in no way indicates how much oil. High pressure can damage the bearings and not allow enough oil to cool the surface, think of a pressure washer trying to put out a house fire compared to a 4 inch water line at 20 psi. The pressure washer is putting out MUCH more pressure but it not nearly enough volume to cool and put out the fire. This is the same in the engine, all you want is about 10 PSI per 1000 RPM with standard equipment. Some engine builders are at 3-6 PSI per 1000 and drag cars are into the 1-2 PSI using thin synthetics.
I would take a very good look at the pushrods and lifters, remember thought that those areas are the farthest point on the oiling system and you may have issues closer to the pump that are stopping oil flow from them, bypass valve on the oil filter adapter may be blocked open or the sping may be soft, bad adapter not sealing to the block or a bad or blocked bypass spring on the pump.. When you did the pump up with the drill did you turn the engine over by hand during?
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...mps/index.html
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...oil_pumps.aspx
http://www.stockcarracing.com/techar...ock/index.html

High-pressure pumps are really stock-volume pumps with a stronger spring backing up the pressure relief valve. This means that an oil pump must raise its pressure to a higher level before the relief valve opens and dumps oil back into the pan. If this extra pressure is not needed, then the engine is using horsepower to pump oil to a peak pressure that is unnecessary--thus resulting in less power to the wheels. An additional loss is that windmilling the unneeded oil back into the pan aerates the oil and raises its temperature. A higher oil temperature can also affect the engine by raising the water temperature.

Yeah for Google and copy paste Ego!!! Good job.

[hogracer3d]

We drill the restrictors to .078, when used with oiling lifters.

We used to mill a small vertical flat on the side of the lifter, before they did the hole thing

[Egoracing]

Yeah for Google and copy paste Ego!!! Good job.

If I post something you say it is wrong with No proof, So I post proof to what I said, Sorry that you were wrong and can not argue about it.

[stock car driver]

If I post something you say it is wrong with No proof, So I post proof to what I said, Sorry that you were wrong and can not argue about it.

What was I wrong about?

Anyone can use google, generally on these types of forums people are looking for advice from people with experience thats not you, lol..

[stock car driver]

http://tinyurl.com/424vz82

[fast_crew]

Something I haven't seen asked is if he has tried rotating the engine while priming. The oil band on the lifters may not always be lined up with the oil galley, to high or to low (can't remember which is more common now). The oil band is different on some lifters and the base circle and lobe lift used sometimes causes this. Try turning the crank a 1/4 turn and try priming again, try another 1/4 turn if still no oil flow. As far as oil restrictors, very few engine builders still use them, with a good pump and proper clearances they just aren't needed, the valve springs need as much oil as you can give them. Something that Bill Hendren (RIP) swore by, and I tried and found to really help: Put stand pipes in the small drains in the valley around the lifters, then open up the rear drains around the distributor, I don't mean just the casting flash!! Open them up like you would an intake port if you didn't know what you where doing Then lower the bottom of the front drains leading to the timing chain area. Crankcase pressure goes up through the stand pipes and oil goes down the drains. Other wise with the case pressure coming up the drains the oil has a hard time going down the drains. Plus this helps keep the oil off the crank shaft and in the pan where it belongs. Like putting a funnel in a bottle and trying to fill it.


And something that Ego (or whom ever wrote that) didn't think of is, that when you have a leak or a bunch of them (bearings, lifters, the distributor hole, etc, etc) you need volume to make pressure, what I am getting at is If it's making the pressure you want, it has volume for the given amount of flow through the leak/s. (if not it wouldn't make the pressure, why do you think the pressure goes up with rpm) Take the nozzle (very small leak) off that pressure washer and now you have a 1/2" fire hose. I would agree though and shoot for no more then 50-60psi, any more is a waste of HP, and hard on the dizzy gear.

[Egoracing]

Something I haven't seen asked is if he has tried rotating the engine while priming. The oil band on the lifters may not always be lined up with the oil galley, to high or to low (can't remember which is more common now). The oil band is different on some lifters and the base circle and lobe lift used sometimes causes this. Try turning the crank a 1/4 turn and try priming again, try another 1/4 turn if still no oil flow. As far as oil restrictors, very few engine builders still use them, with a good pump and proper clearances they just aren't needed, the valve springs need as much oil as you can give them. Something that Bill Hendren (RIP) swore by, and I tried and found to really help: Put stand pipes in the small drains in the valley around the lifters, then open up the rear drains around the distributor, I don't mean just the casting flash!! Open them up like you would an intake port if you didn't know what you where doing Then lower the bottom of the front drains leading to the timing chain area. Crankcase pressure goes up through the stand pipes and oil goes down the drains. Other wise with the case pressure coming up the drains the oil has a hard time going down the drains. Plus this helps keep the oil off the crank shaft and in the pan where it belongs. Like putting a funnel in a bottle and trying to fill it.


And something that Ego (or whom ever wrote that) didn't think of is, that when you have a leak or a bunch of them (bearings, lifters, the distributor hole, etc, etc) you need volume to make pressure, what I am getting at is If it's making the pressure you want, it has volume for the given amount of flow through the leak/s. (if not it wouldn't make the pressure, why do you think the pressure goes up with rpm) Take the nozzle (very small leak) off that pressure washer and now you have a 1/2" fire hose. I would agree though and shoot for no more then 50-60psi, any more is a waste of HP, and hard on the dizzy gear.

You are correct and I did ask if he turned it over. You do gain pressure with volume BUT a high pressure pump is not a high volume pump. If you take the nozzle off of a pressure washer it will only spray a few feet and still will not match the volume of the higher volume supply.

Stockcar, You do NOT want a high pressure pump you only volume, pressure cost HP, not volume as you stated, you can easily have high volume at a much lower pressure and move more oil and high pressure pumps will increase oil temprature.

[stock car driver]

Stockcar, You do NOT want a high pressure pump you only volume, pressure cost HP, not volume as you stated, you can easily have high volume at a much lower pressure and move more oil and high pressure pumps will increase oil temprature.

Not sure what your talking to me about this for BUT... a high pressure pump means it has a higher bypass spring pressure before it DUMPS excess oil back in the pan...

THIS EXCESS dumping is what causes the extra airation in the pan and increases the oil temp.

SO running a high pressure spring means it DUMPS less into the pan, produces less oil temp rise etc.

If you ran a stock pressure high volume pump you would be dumping a lot more oil back into the pan raising the temps. Causing aeration etc. Read your own copy paste, lol its right in there last paragraph.

Try your google search again...

[Egoracing]

Not sure what your talking to me about this for BUT... a high pressure pump means it has a higher bypass spring pressure before it DUMPS excess oil back in the pan...

THIS EXCESS dumping is what causes the extra airation in the pan and increases the oil temp.

SO running a high pressure spring means it DUMPS less into the pan, produces less oil temp rise etc.

If you ran a stock pressure high volume pump you would be dumping a lot more oil back into the pan raising the temps. Causing aeration etc. Read your own copy paste, lol its right in there last paragraph.

Try your google search again...

Wrong, Increasing pressure increases the temp when it dumps a high volume pump running less pressure will NOT dump and add air and temp. Read the articles, increased pressure equals more bypass and higher oil temps and a high volume running less pressure is cooler. PERIOD no other way around it. That last paragraph is talking about running a HIGH PRESSURE PUMP, just read the first sentence!!

[stock car driver]

Wrong, Increasing pressure increases the temp when it dumps a high volume pump running less pressure will NOT dump and add air and temp. Read the articles, increased pressure equals more bypass and higher oil temps and a high volume running less pressure is cooler. PERIOD no other way around it. That last paragraph is talking about running a HIGH PRESSURE PUMP, just read the first sentence!!

A high pressure pump is a STOCK pump with a higher pressure spring.. read your own articles and copy paste, lol. Your right its right there in the first sentence...

It has a higher psi spring and DUMPS excess oil at a higher pressure than a hv would.

Its your own post and you cant understand it?

Here Ill copy paste it for you...

"High-pressure pumps are really stock-volume pumps with a stronger spring backing up the pressure relief valve. This means that an oil pump must raise its pressure to a higher level before the relief valve opens and dumps oil back into the pan."

fyi- Bill Hendren is the one who told me to run the m55a years ago. Which is a high pressure pump only...

[Egoracing]

If this extra pressure is not needed, then the engine is using horsepower to pump oil to a peak pressure that is unnecessary--thus resulting in less power to the wheels. An additional loss is that windmilling the unneeded oil back into the pan aerates the oil and raises its temperature. A higher oil temperature can also affect the engine by raising the water temperature.

Seems you conveniently forgot the rest, the part that proves you wrong, that the added pressure if not needed adds heat and uses horsepower. A standard Chevy oiling system has adequate pressure with a stock pump BUT there is not enough volume for many racing applications. ANY pressure over 10 psi per 1000 RPM is doing NOTHING but using HP.

“You don’t really need a high volume pump if you are running stock bearing clearances. This will save power compared to a high volume pump. But if you are running a lot of rpms or are building an engine with looser clearances, then a high volume pump would be the best choice.”

This is STRAIGHT from one of the articles posted above, not high pressure but high volume, earlier in the article the RPM for a stock pump is noted as 3000 RPM and anything over 5000 they reccomend a billet pump. The quote is from Mike Osterhaus of Melling Oil Pumps.


Rydjord pointed out that the use of a high-pressure pump would not affect the idle oil pressure. It would only show up at an rpm where the pump capacity overcomes the pressure relief valve. He said that although each engine might be different, the relief valve would probably start to open around the oil volume that could be used at 3,500 engine rpm. So, consider that too much oil pressure wastes horsepower.


I asked Osterhaus about using high-volume pumps in stock level racing engines. He responded, "The stock pump can take care of the bearings on most stock or near-stock engines. There are two good instances where a high-volume pump should be used. In a case where the bearing clearances have been opened up, allowing more oil to flow through, the higher-volume would be a benefit. This situation is not as prevalent now as in the past. Most engine builders seem to tighten up the bearing clearances now. The other situation is when an oil cooler, or some other restriction, is added to the oil system. Then, additional flow is needed."


Read more: http://www.stockcarracing.com/techar...#ixzz1TjuomiHu

[stock car driver]

If this extra pressure is not needed, then the engine is using horsepower to pump oil to a peak pressure that is unnecessary--thus resulting in less power to the wheels. An additional loss is that windmilling the unneeded oil back into the pan aerates the oil and raises its temperature. A higher oil temperature can also affect the engine by raising the water temperature.

Seems you conveniently forgot the rest, the part that proves you wrong,



that the added pressure if not needed adds heat and uses horsepower. A standard Chevy oiling system has adequate pressure with a stock pump BUT there is not enough volume for many racing applications. ANY pressure over 10 psi per 1000 RPM is doing NOTHING but using HP.[/url]

Ego its not even fun being in a battle of witts with you as you are clearly un-armed.

A m55a pump which is the melling high pressure pump is a oem pump the only difference is the spring pressure which makes it dump pressure later, lol..

Nothing above that you quoted proves me wrong on anything.. IF, huge IF here I realize. IF you actually raced and actually owned a motor at some time with a m55a pump you would know that the spring pressure it is set at provides you about 60 psi pressure with a common wt oil, lol..

oem stock pumps are about 45psi, lol.

Were all racing at 6000rpm or more even those of us with 436ci motors and a 4412 or 7448 carb...

AGAIN I speak from experience of having a race car with a race motor in it.

[Egoracing]

Evidently you can not read as it clearly says high pressure pumps are not needed. Sorry for you inability to comprehend what is CLEARLY written. There are on-line classes and local programs for free that can help you with this issue, good luck and I hope you can conquer your issue.