Looking into crates and have a ?

[lyons17r]

What are the things you can do to a 604 crate to get thoe most power with the rules of Fasttrax or the nesmith rules or something like that, like what are the crate guys doing to cheat it up. I know ppl won't tell everything but what do you all thing the biggest hp diff is in a stock 604 crate to the top crate guys motors?

[pcope98]

cheated up,ummm ok , look elsewhere like shocks , hubs, headers,carbs its all a package deal,and last but not least traction control.... really the biggest thing is all the ultra lite parts for these cars and a great shock package, thats what wins most of the time...i have had several 604's worked and gm direct the power differance isnt that big of an issue until you get a one from Dynoman 14........then lookout you will be king of the crates lol....

[Egoracing]

What are the things you can do to a 604 crate to get thoe most power with the rules of Fasttrax or the nesmith rules or something like that, like what are the crate guys doing to cheat it up. I know ppl won't tell everything but what do you all thing the biggest hp diff is in a stock 604 crate to the top crate guys motors?

From a BAD generation1 factory 604 to a top end blueprinted gen 2 engine.....maybe 25-35hp From an average new 604 to a top blue printed unit....Maybe 15hp. If you buy one and have 390-400hp at the rear whells it is not going to get much better, and yes you can get that out of a straight from GM 604.

As far as cheating, it will gain you a year ban, you will loose the cheated parts or engine and it will cost you money. They seem to nail someone every year that thinks you can not win with a legal motor because they are the best driver ever and they are gitting beaten every week so ALL the other cars are cheating.

There is more HP to be found in what you bolt to the engine than you will find cheating, and it will cost less.

[lyons17r]

Thanks, for some reason my area keeps pushing away crates, and everyone says it's because of ppl cheat in and don't really want to tach them, well I run the steel block late model and I would love to run crate but there is no one close that runs them. I am getting over powered by at least 100 or so hp of not more, and I love the thought of all on the same motor.

[Egoracing]

Depending on the track you can get away with less and sometimes A LOT LESS! We won open motor races on a hard, flat track running a crate. Glen Yann won a Super late model race at Screven running a crate, he started mid pack and passed Jack Pennington on the outside with a few laps left and drove away from him. That would have equaled around a 400hp defecit and he won. On a place like Eldora, Golden Isles or Bulls Gap it wont happen but at some tracks it can be done.

[lyons17r]

Well I mostly plan on runnin Portsmouth, BMC, Southern Ohio Speedway, and Jackson County Speedway

[dynoman14]

Lyons,
Legal HP is usually not easy or cheap but what is in racing.

The largest single gain you can make on any crate engine is matching the carb you run to the fuel you run. I do it on the chassis dyno and get different results than most folks do on an engine dyno. Getting it right is 15-20RWHP.

The next biggest gain is geting your distributor built to the right timing curve to match the engines acceleration after you get the carb right. If you are firing too soon you bind up the engine if you fire too late you run too rich. Getting it right is as much as 10-15RWHP.

There are big gains in selecting the right belt drive systems and components and that can run 10-15RWHP running low drag WP, PS Pump and belt drive.

Headers can be very big if you hit on the right combination, I have seen as much as 25RWHP in the 6000-7000 range, if you have an engine that will turn up that high.

I see as much as 10-15RWHP in fuels.
Oils and other lubricants, getting this right in the engine transmission and rear end is 10-15RWHP.

Driveline alignment and tire stagger can be as much as 25RWHP.

If you sit down and total everything up you are over 100RWHP, although I have only seen this on a couple cars as the engine has to be capable of increased HP to that level and stable at higher RPM's. I have only seen bone stock engines move from 400RWHP to about 440max. I have seen re-built engines starting at 420 move on up to 480+. With some jacked up fuel it is pretty easy to make another 10HP and you are pretty close to 500RWHP.

These results are on my Superflow chassis dyno, that I have owned for 20+ years and have had CUP, BGN, CTS, NHRA & IHRA Winners and Champions on in the last 20 years. Crate results have been backed up with National and Regional Champions in Fastrak, UMP and ASA.

I used to run a bunch of cars on a regular basis, an that on and off the dyno is a pain in the butt. Now I only take on R&D, Parts Testing, and Development projects booked by the week. Since I am a one man shop I have had to streamline my processes, to try and keep up with parts demands and get all of my other work done.

[dirty white boy]

bare in mind,..dyno14 dynos on a deferent scale than most other dyno operators according to his novels he always posting,an any dyno operator can alter there graphs at will,....you can buy legal motor an run it as is,.or buy a legal motor an spend a lot more money blue printin it for 15-20 more hp,..or you can cheat one up,..buy cheater seals an bolts an get caught,..fined,..suspended an carry the name cheater as long as you race anywheres...better gains in shocks than in the crate an its legal!

[dynoman14]

DWB and all the rest of you haters and back-stabbers, since 2002 I have built 237 GM crate engines for ASA, SCCA, NHRA, Fastrak, NeSmith, UMP and OutlawLMS.

Last year alone I had over 100 race winners in the tech shed at various tracks in the US and Canada, every one of them called me on the phone in the middle of the night to let me know they were found legal. In a couple cases I offered to sell the engine for $6500 instead of the tear down and it was refused, in every case my customer got $1000-$1500 in tear down fees and the win and the points and I re-freshed the engine for only the cost of parts. My labor & dyno time was free.

If any one of those engines would have been found illegal in a tear down don't you think every know-it-all blabber mouth on here would have announced it from the highest mountain???

DWB, you especially after I told you I would help you build your carb and a set of heads for free and try and get you enough stock engine parts for your street stocker to help you get going...I guess there is a Judas in every crowd.

I sell parts to some of the winningest teams in Crate racing on Dirt and Pavement. The fact that they want to keep things on the Down Lo is fine with me as long as I get paid for my parts and services. During my 30 years I have never advertised and never needed to as my phone mail, e-mail and pm's here and on a couple other sites fill up on a weekly basis with good folks that have questions and comments about my posts and want further information.

I have been staying off 4m for just this reason, folks on here don't want to learn anything they just want to bash and bully on the internet because they are inadequate and unsatisfied in every other part of their life.

Anyway, I have been in business for 30+ years an have hundreds of satisfied customer and I am about tired of taking crap off a bunch of red-necks that don't know their A$$ from a hole in the ground. I have had a couple disgruntled folks that were unhappy with me that I actually held their parts or engines until they were paid for but like I said before if you want something for free go to the welfare office.

Correction, I still offer free dyno pulls on your carb if you want to see where you are at in relation to the couple hundred I have done in the last year. I used to keep a running average but after 1000 carbs last year I started over.

And no, I don't steal ideas off other carbs or learn from other racers' JUNK because my stuff is so different than anything else out there if you knew what you were looking at you would understand. There is only about 1 in 50 carbs that makes more power than an out of the box 650HP or an 80803 so that should tell you something about what you are spending your money on.

If you don't believe it pool your money together and go buy a day on an engine dyno for $500 with 10 folks at $50 ea. you can easily dyno 10 carbs in about 4 hours and then you can spend the other 4 hours figuring out how much power you lose with a 4 blade fan, a crappy water pump, a dead battery, a crappy locked out distributor, that junk water oil everybody is trying to sell...ooops you just went over 8 hours...

Hope this was not too much for most of you to read, if so take a break rest your ADD and come back in 5 and read the rest or just bypass all of my posts from now on.

[stockcar5]

If any one of those engines would have been found illegal in a tear down don't you think every know-it-all blabber mouth on here would have announced it from the highest mountain???

you dont have any engines. you dyno rice grinders for a nominal fee so some kid can go make a 14sec 1/4 mile pass down the highway. good for you. your lies wont get you much here. everybody is on to you. no more free lunches for you.

[DaveBauerSS6]

Please excuse the hijack, My thoughts have been provoked.

DYNO:
The next biggest gain is geting your distributor built to the right timing curve to match the engines acceleration after you get the carb right. If you are firing too soon you bind up the engine if you fire too late you run too rich. Getting it right is as much as 10-15RWHP.

I run a Super Stock, 625 HP, iron head 4 bbl ; 4900 to 7600 on our average tracks. Are you saying it would be beneficial to run a timing curve ( not fixed) at that RPM range?? I run a tach recorder and am surprised at how long the rpms are in the lower range.

[sj valley dave]

Hey Dave, do you have a separate tach recorder? We just picked one up and will have it on the DLM next race....A 10 minute or so recording?

[dirty white boy]

dyno,..you want folks to believe your the smoky yunick of the 2000's,...prove it!! know ya wont cause ive seen you back step an run an hide when bill h offered to buy an test some your space age products, don't want folks not believe your crazy sounding long winded name dropping post,..put some meat up beside them taters an prove it!! long as you go on acting an lookin like a con man the world will belive you are,...so step up an prove this hole bored wrong or let it go... i mean theres smart azz's an azz holes an know it alls an know nuttun's, has beens an never was's on here tryin to help an share in this race'in dreams we all share,..words dont get the respect you crave,results dose! an you act like results is high priority security when every body else boost theres an wounder why nobody puts stock in what you offer,....yeah years ago when i first found 4m i asked you a question bout heads after reading a post that you flow benched heads an you never really ansewd my question but offered to dyno my carb i didn't even have to "match it" to my motor,...im no genius or nuttun but even a redneck knows youd need my motor to match a carb to it....so you can quit acting like you did me some big favor,...you was still wanting to charge for any tunning an parts after one free dyno pull...fish'in for business!! nuttun more!!

[DaveBauerSS6]

Hey Dave, do you have a separate tach recorder? We just picked one up and will have it on the DLM next race....A 10 minute or so recording?

Autometer, stand alone. They don't make it anymore. It records 22 minutes. Always tells the truth, even when the driver lies!! I think Perrin just found a similar one , cant remember who makes it. You can learn a lot from it.

[sj valley dave]

Yep, that's the one..They are no longer being manufactured..We just picked up the harness and will get it installed..

[DaveBauerSS6]

Good find. You will like it.

[dynoman14]

dwb,
Sorry you took.my offer to build your cylinder heads for free and run and build your carb for free. I guess if you are looking for someone to blame because you can't race I am just as good as any.

As far as my post and comments go Mr Hendren, I have told him and others aI don't need the springs tested as I am selling more than I can treat@ 25+ sets a week.

Don't know your sources on what engines I build but I have 11 - 604s and 3 -602s in the floor to get done in the next 4-6 weeks. Some Fastrak, Nesmith UMP& SCCA.

I appreciate all the negative comments the world loves an underdog so keep on keepin on.

[dynoman14]

Dave
In regards to you original question, why do you think I posted what I did? It is a simple test even for you drag racers. You can try it at a test and the session and let us knw the results. I would offer to show you on the chassis Dyno but I have already done it 100 times. Thstbis why I shut my biz down to the public because most folks don't have a clue or even know where to find one. Like I said before to you run a flat fuel curve in your carb??? If so you"re missing the boat the too.

[dirty white boy]

From a BAD generation1 factory 604 to a top end blueprinted gen 2 engine.....maybe 25-35hp From an average new 604 to a top blue printed unit....Maybe 15hp. If you buy one and have 390-400hp at the rear whells it is not going to get much better, and yes you can get that out of a straight from GM 604.

As far as cheating, it will gain you a year ban, you will loose the cheated parts or engine and it will cost you money. They seem to nail someone every year that thinks you can not win with a legal motor because they are the best driver ever and they are gitting beaten every week so ALL the other cars are cheating.

There is more HP to be found in what you bolt to the engine than you will find cheating, and it will cost less.

this bout the best reply to the original question,...to stay with in the rules blue printing the thing an stay on top of tune up an valve springs,...an run all light weight an low drag components....the money you save on motor youll spend on light weight parts an high dollar shocks,..way it is round here anyways,...its easy to straght out cheat up a crate but when checked its just as easy to get caught!! better vavle springs,..better cam,...mill the heads deck block,..porting an such same as you do a open motor to make more power but illegal...plenty of places to get seal bolts on the net....

[Egoracing]

Dyno can say all he wants and he claims a LOT but is never proven anything. The car I worked on won 2 nights of Nesmith races at East Bay one year and he claimed that he had parts on the top 5 cars in all 3 races. I can assure you there was NOTHING he had ever touched on our car. Once confronted with the facts his reply was that he was talking about another Nesmith race that same weekend, There are NO other Nesmith races running when they run the 3 day races at East Bay.