What fuel to use in 604?
E85,pump gas,mix racing gas 50/50 with pump gas.What is the fuel of choice for these motors.Getting one in a couple weeks and would like to get pros and cons of each.Thanks Mike
This is always a good discussion area.----opinions will vary but its good to hear what racers are seeing for results from fuel.
all fuels have pros and cons--keep that in mind before making a decission
I will give you the short version of our findings and watch as others reply in
hopefully some folks like Steve and Mike Hendren will come on and let us know what they are seeing as well.
E-85 ........is it in your area???-------cheap in price-------makes good power---------------------
----MUST test it constantly-----MUST have correct components (carb,pump,regulator)
Pump Gas----easy to get -----cheaper than race gas-----power is not terrible but definatly down from other fuels----------very inconsistant-----run chance of failures
pump gas mixed with race gas (high octane)-------good insurance that your engine will not fail due to detonation but still low on power
AV gas or race gas-------safe fuel to race with
oxygenated crate fuel (CHP, MS109, Ratman)--------tuff on engines ----expensive---BUT makes the most power
I know some will argue with me on it, and I'm not saying it's the best fuel in the world, but in my 604 for 2 seasons so far on the same motor I bought USED, I have run Aviation Fuel straight, no mixing, with no problems. Around $5.50 a gallon and I live beside the airport, so it just works for me. I just hate seeing people waste their money on expensive racing fuel in an engine designed to run on pump gas. JMO.
you must decide if you want max power or save money on fuel if you want max power run VP CHP if you want to spend less run 105 race gas pump gas is not formulated for racing in our opinion E85 is to much trouble to run water in fuel issues not always the same it may be working for some people but we do not recomend it to our customers
The following is a direct copy from the Information & Recommendation sheet that we send out with every 604 crate engine that we rebuild. (You can view the entire I & R sheet on our facebook page in the "notes" section. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000435266960)
We recommend the following fuels for the 604 crate engine:
Regular race gas (non oxygenated): Renegade 98 - or any equivalent race gas that does not exceed 105 octane.
Oxygenated race gas (for maximum power): Renegade RatMan Crate 108sr - VP Crate Horse Power (The Renegade Rat Man Crate 108 produces the same power as the VP CHP fuel. Both of these fuels produce more power than any other oxygenated race gas we have tested. However both the Rat Man Crate 108 and the VP CHP require some carb modifications in order to run properly. (We use the Renegade RatMan 108sr in our own house car.) NOTE: On January 1st 2012, RatMan 108sr will be called RatMan Elite)
Renegade racing fuel can be purchased directly from Fordís Fuel Service, INC. They will ship product anywhere in the US. Contact Tim Tyner at 1-800-615-5981 or (843)-756-3918. You can also find them at www.mrracefuel.com
In addition, we recommend using ONLY race gas. Regular pump gas is too unpredictable as far as ethanol content. Since the Federal Government has allowed oil companies to cut their fuel with up to 10% ethanol, we have seen serious performance issues with engines running regular pump gas, as well as some engine failures (i.e. burned pistons). Blending pump gas with race gas will also result in unpredictable mixtures, and NEVER recommend attempting this.
I have run my 604 on shell 91pump with a holley crate carb straight out the box for 3 years with no problems.Not saying i make the most power but i have raced 2 times a week for that span and had lots of fun.Plus only replaced valve springs once.Oh (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) i just jinxed myself!
Actually thru a lot of research we found that Shell had the most consistant fuel form area to area where we ran. Some fuels changed A LOT depending on the emissions standards of the state, the elevation and the time of year.
Originally Posted by zeke23z
EGO you are dead on--------we have cutomers that need to run on pump gas because of funds
we have found shell to be the most consistant but we do recommend some research
1st---the station that you normally buy fuel from----when you see the truck ther delivering fuel that is the worse time to buy fuel BUT it is the best time to stop in and gain some knowledge!!!
ask the driver how much premium he normally drops at that station-----with fuel prices at $4 a gallon not many folks buy premium anymore so the tank might set idle.
if he doesn't drop much premium there he might know a near by station that does move enough premium to keep it fresh
also the truck drivers can be very knowledgable about fuel mixes --even specific gravity tests
my next suggestion to pump gas users is to put 5 to 10 gallons of fuel in your truck before you start filling your fuel jugs---this will flush the lines and pull fuel from the premium tank only---the middle grade gasolines are a blend of premium and 87 so the lines can have low grade gas in them.
back to the beginning ---do not buy fuel when the truck is dumping fuel
ALL underground tanks have water in them and when the truck is dumping fuel it is like a blender inside the tank---it won't take long for the water to settle back to the bottom well out of range of the pick up but during the tank filling you could get a large dose of H2O
even with all that we still recommend a contoled blend with AV gas or race fuel to insure a high enough motor octane to prevent detonation
we have quite a few customers still running pump gas and with the above recommendations (KNOCK on wood) we havn't had any failures
32 degrees is the MAX timing on pump fuels
Fuel of choice for me is CHP, cost is more but on my Superflow Chassis DYno and Gabriels engine dyno it is 10-15HP better than anything I have tested.
My second choice is Sunoco Crate 98.
I have made some good power with 1G-e85 + 4G Chevron Premium but it is pretty scarce in the world out there ( almost as good as CHP ). You have to have a premium source of e85. I have also tested with my own mixture making Me85 with very pure methanol mixed with Chevron93 and made more power than e85/gas mix but it requires some carb work and your fuel system needs to be pumped on a weekly basis to keep your fuel cell and fuel from picking up moisture.
I will be testing the 260GT Unleaded as soon as I get some more in. I tested it for 2-604's I sent to Canada last year and it was almost as good as MS-109, but I only had 10 gallons and it burned up pretty quick.
When you figure pump premium at about $4 and race gas $8 and CHP $10 you have to see if you can come up with an extra 10-20HP for the same price of about 5-7 gallons of fuel cause that is about weekly burn at a local track.
I am not figuring how e-85 is cheaper than race gas as it is almost $4 gallon here and you burn twice as much of it to make the same power so it ends up being $8 gallon also...
Do tracks out there allow you double the burn off in fuel if your run e85???
Maybe you can't get E-85 to work because you're trying to use, as you put it, twice as much fuel as with gas. That's absolutely wrong, and I would think that someone that claimed to build E-85 carbs awhile back would realize that. E-85 works great with the 604 as long as you're not drowning it lol. CHP, Rat Man or Sunoco 260 GT Plus works equally well but costs a little more.
Last edited by 50j; 05-03-2012 at 09:07 AM.
Time for a little schooling on fuel chemistry.
Ethanol has 1/2 the BTU's of GAS. That is an empirical fact.
In order to make the same power out of an internal combustion V-8 engine you will have to burn twice as much to get the job done. That is also an empirical fact.
Alcohol late models take twice as much fuel to run a race as their gas counterparts, wonder why that is???
Unless your e-85 is different than all the rest of the e-85 around it takes almost twice as much of it to get the job done. Yes there is 15% gas in it so lets say 1.7 times more e-85 than GAS.
If you are making more HP with less fuel that has less BTU's you need to go the the US government because you have just broken the fuel research barrier and that should net you BILLIONS.
I have built plenty of Alcohol and e-85 carbs and my own Me85 carbs. In every case the fuel gauge on the dyno reads about double in #/hr burned and the A/F Ratio is about 1/2 what gas is.
As far as the other fuel goes you might want to check a couple important factors when you test fuel. One of the most important is BTU/# . From that you can calculate the HP. If a fuel supplier does not have that information to provide for you they are either lying to you about your fuel, too cheap to do proper testing, or not serious about racing fuel.
The other thing about fuel testing, most common methods will produce common results and curves will almost overlap without showing any difference. Fixed acceleration and fixed rate RPM testing is not an accurate method to determine the burn rate of fuel. I have a single cylinder engine on my small inertia dyno that closely replicates one cylinder of a V-8 even though it only make 40-50HP it is over 2HP / " so it works for almost everything I have ever attempted to test. Spark plugs, engine oil, spark timing, valve springs, cam timing, fuel curve testing.
The bottom line is you can only test things your system is designed to test. Water brake dynos are steady state machine with a computer on them to calculate HP numbers off of the torque arm at a given load rate and given RPM load with a calibrated water valve controlled by a solenoid to allow more or less water to the torque converter or water brake.
An Inertia dyno is a real life measurement of how much work it takes to accelerate a known mass. The information gathered is real time and is an actual interpretation of energy required to spin the mass up to a certain speed. This never stays the same, is not controlled by valves or solenoids. If you can spin the mass to 100mph in 6 seconds you can do that amount of work on the track.
That is why other folks fuel testing only yields small differences, I see big differences in my fuel tests. When I follow up at the track I see the same big differences.
Not saying I am any more right than the next guy, but my test results closely mimic the results in real time racing on the track so I guess the results are pretty accurate and precise. I have done fuel testing for some major manufacturers and producers and have had very good correlation to less than 1% in most cases.
I guess that is why they keep sending me stuff to test.
I am just finishing up with a new round of testing for a new fuel that has 7% more BTU's than anything I have tested to date and I can tell you it smokes the competition. My guys will be running it next week. That fuel should be released to public 2013.
Nope. Ethanol is around 76,100 btu/gallon. E-85 is around 81,800 btu per gallon and gasoline is around 114,000 btu per gallon. Watch the BSFC numbers on a dyno sometime at best power with methanol, gas and e-85. Methanol will use around twice the amount of fuel as with gas, but not E-85 as it's ethanol based. Go to the corner and assume the pointed hat lol.
Last edited by 50j; 05-05-2012 at 09:46 PM.
once again dyno posting incorrect information. he doesnt even know the basics of fuel but yet he claims to blend his own? now hes gone from being a snake oil salesman to giving out info that could cost people lots of money. makes you wonder if its intentional?
Im confused.... the manual that I got with my 604 says only use unleaded fuel..... Renegade 98 it says is leaded????
Once again you guys are the ones spouting off mis-information. Most race fuels have more BTU's than you have quoted but who is to argue with 2 of the greatest minds on the internet.
On your e-85 crate carbs what jets do your run or recommend??? And how many #/HR does that burn on the dyno.
It is a well known fact that it take about twice as much alcohol to make the same power as race fuel.
It may not be exactly 2:1 but close enough in my book to be when the A/F ratio is about 1/2 on the dyno what does that mean since you are such an expert at watching the gauges on the dyno???
As far as the fuel chemistry goes I am well aware of the differences between Methanol and Ethanol as I spent 12 years of my life working in a Bio-Chemistry and Alternative fuels lab that I built myself when I was 20. I was whisked off to Germany for a couple years to continue research there for Daimler-Benz at the Biologische Anstalt Helgoland. After having all the fun I could have there and taking advantage of all the assets I could on the nude beaches and country club swimming pools. I decided to come back to the wonderful USA as I was offerred a wack job running QC for Kraft Foods, stayed a couple years there and got bored, bolted to Domino's Pizza and made crazy bonuses 25 times my salary, cause they were opening 50-100 stores a month. I got a bonus 1 month of $243,000. That only lasted a couple months until they changed the bonus structure and cut them by a factor of 10.
So when I say 1/2 it is roughly 1/2 if it is 54% or 58% that is pretty close to half.
What jets do you run in the E-85 carbs you build ???
The last Braswell 850 Late Model alcohol carb I took in had 138 jets in it and made 821 on the dirt SB-2. The same Dirt SB-2 made 847 on C-16 and has 85 jets in it. The area of the jet is about 2.5 times bigger in the ALKY carb and the # / hr on the fuel flow meter was approx 420 on gas and 810 on methanol.
Using BLP jets in both carbs the number is the gauge size so I think the alcohol jet is actually more than twice the area of the gas jet.
You will find the burn rate and fuel consumption of ethanol is very close to the same as methanol even though it has one extra carbon chain results are pretty close. There used to be an IHRA Alcohol funny car out of Canada that was Champ for many year sponsored by Ethanal. I know the numbers from there and they are pretty close to the methanol numbers other cars used to run. There are several reasons why EtOH is better but I am sure you experts already know so never mind.
Have either one of you armchair rocket scientists ever even built an alcohol engine??? Or did you just look at one on google and cipher all them magic numbers out.
What do you think it takes to convert fuel BTU's into HP???
Last edited by dynoman14; 05-10-2012 at 10:58 PM.
What did I post that will cost people a bunch of money???
Maybe the fact that I was charging $1000 bucks a day for chassis dyno time and recently signed a deal for triple that for 3 years with a contract for engine development.
That cost a lot of money, but telling people that they need to jet up for e-85 and how I do it won't hurt a thing if they do it properly.
One thing you are missing big time is the ability of an engine to assimilate the fuel you dump into it. What do you think happens to the intake manifold and runners in the head when you have to dump almost twice the amount of liquid / vapor in there and the volumes do not change???
Why do you think alcohol heads have intake volumes over 325cc, with 8 throttle blades 2 1/2" ???
telling people you need 2x more fuel with e85 when in fact you need only 30% more will cost guys money by not only wasting fuel but causing them poor finishes because there motor runs like a turd.
maybe if you actually spent time on a dyno with e85 and e98 like i have you would know this.
maybe thats how you claim to pick up some much power with peoples carbs, make it run like dog poo then retune it to run right and all is happy in the world?? kinda like a jewler marking stuff up 200% and giving you 50% off makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
The jet size of the methanol carb is irrelevant. That's methanol, not E-85 which is ETHANOL and GAS. BSFC means brake specific fuel consumption, and shows the rate of fuel consumption divided by the power produced. If you learn to watch this number, you'll find that it's a little bit higher with oxygenated fuel, and a little bit higher than that with E-85 but not near what you're claiming. E-100 is closer, Methanol is there.. I'm not even going to tell you the numbers because next week you'll be repeating them and claiming that you discovered it when you were head of the Dept. of Energy, before you went to work delivering pizzas. Armchair? No. I've been using it for over a decade. I'm not going to continue sparring with you, because I feel sorry for you. Joking aside, you need some help and I hope you get it.
Originally Posted by dynoman14
Last edited by 50j; 05-11-2012 at 03:55 PM.
Can anyone field this question? Why does GM only recomend using unleaded fuel in these engines? Because Renegade 98 is leaded.
PS... Ive never work for Dominos but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.
Be happy to . The crate motor idea was sold to racing on the premise that it would save a lot of money , both in engine costs and in fuel costs . GM doesn't say not to use race gas , they RECOMMEND that you use 92/93 pump gas thereby making the crate motor less expensive to run . Most crate motor racers use racing gasoline . It isn't mandatory that you do , but it's going to be difficult to win races against the guys that do use race gas . The Renegade Race Fuel is very carefully designed to make power and torque in crate engines .
Originally Posted by jason29a
Keep in mind that ALL pump gas specs change from spring to summer and from fall to winter . It's to keep stock street engines performing well in all temps and humidity . That means that the gasoline content stays the same , but the ethanol content changes . And that means the octane changes . Pump gas is not a consistant race fuel .
Last edited by Mike Croley; 05-17-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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