Balancer Question

[tsnmotorsports]

I have an internally balanced 406. The question I have is can I knock the weight off of a balancer and just run the inside of the balancer without the weight?

I was told since it was internally balanced then all I need is a place to hook up the lower pullies and that the balancer part was just a waste of weight.

Thanks for your help.

[Egoracing]

Can you = Yes
Do you want to = No

The ballancer has little to nothing to do to "Ballance" the engine, it is a harmonic absorber. The crankshaft flexs like a spring while the engine is running, this flexing induces harmonics (just like a spring) into the engine. Sprint cars get away without a ballancer but the rear tires actually end up acting as a ballancer on the engine due to the direct drive. It will run for awhile but the engine will suffer and eventually fail because of it.

[stockcar5]

Can you = Yes
Do you want to = No

The ballancer has little to nothing to do to "Ballance" the engine, it is a harmonic absorber. The crankshaft flexs like a spring while the engine is running, this flexing induces harmonics (just like a spring) into the engine. Sprint cars get away without a ballancer but the rear tires actually end up acting as a ballancer on the engine due to the direct drive. It will run for awhile but the engine will suffer and eventually fail because of it.

sprint cars get away with it because they run a crank driven water pump which absorbs vibration into the water. not because of direct drive...

[Egoracing]

By your theory of direct drive......wouldn't someone who is running a bert or a brinn be considered some what of a direct drive as well?

I was told by an engine builder a long time ago it was because the limited amount of slop in the locked in drive of the sprint would let the harmonics hit the rear tires, with the slop a trans it would not make it to the tires. Correct or not???? But the guy only built sprint motors and his stuff won a TON of races in and around Florida.

[stockcar5]

i know you hate being wrong ego but here is more info since you dont seem to want to believe us.

quote:Many engines, including virtually all V8’s, V6’s and inline 6’s, use a device on the free end of the crankshaft to attenuate the amplitude of what could otherwise become destructive torsional oscillations of the crank. Without an appropriate absorber, the life expectancy of the crankshaft in a typical American V8 engine at full power can usually be measured in minutes. (The flywheel-less Sprint Car V8 engines with the water pump attached to the nose of the crankshaft are indeed a special case by virtue of the substantial alteration in natural frequencies by the lack of a flywheel, coupled with the natural damping effect of a water pump.).

here is the source:http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._absorbers.htm

[joedoozer]

I was told by an engine builder a long time ago it was because the limited amount of slop in the locked in drive of the sprint would let the harmonics hit the rear tires, with the slop a trans it would not make it to the tires. Correct or not???? But the guy only built sprint motors and his stuff won a TON of races in and around Florida.

No way are the tires absorbing vibrations. Even with and "in and out box" you are still going through 7 plus feet of metal shafts to get to the tire. I am sure your engine builder buddy just misspoke.

[Egoracing]

i know you hate being wrong ego but here is more info since you dont seem to want to believe us.

quote:Many engines, including virtually all V8’s, V6’s and inline 6’s, use a device on the free end of the crankshaft to attenuate the amplitude of what could otherwise become destructive torsional oscillations of the crank. Without an appropriate absorber, the life expectancy of the crankshaft in a typical American V8 engine at full power can usually be measured in minutes. (The flywheel-less Sprint Car V8 engines with the water pump attached to the nose of the crankshaft are indeed a special case by virtue of the substantial alteration in natural frequencies by the lack of a flywheel, coupled with the natural damping effect of a water pump.).

here is the source:http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._absorbers.htm

I had already put correct or not ???? as in I never questioned it I will easily admit that the waterpump could do it but that would make me wonder why they use ballancers on jet powered boats as they are also a crank driven water pump. No issue at all with admitting right or wrong I was just posting what I was told by someone that raced and built the engines, I have never messed with a sprint car so???

Jodeozer, where are sprint cars running 7 feet of shaft??? Maybe total rearend width + Drive length?

[joedoozer]

I had already put correct or not ???? as in I never questioned it I will easily admit that the waterpump could do it but that would make me wonder why they use ballancers on jet powered boats as they are also a crank driven water pump. No issue at all with admitting right or wrong I was just posting what I was told by someone that raced and built the engines, I have never messed with a sprint car so???

Jodeozer, where are sprint cars running 7 feet of shaft??? Maybe total rearend width + Drive length?

Exactly that. Axle plus driveshaft. Even if it's closer to 5 feet, it still doesn't make sense.

[Chico]

I've heard both theories that being said I started driving skeeters back when I was 18 and a lot of weird ideas were floating around But we did have more HP with a Bal (this was before Crank driven wps were common in our area) and the longevity was very pronounced an engine builder told us that as said it helped drive train stability He also said he thought it may act as a weight does on some machines as once the mass was moving it helped it maintain the momentum Now I don;t know yea or nay on that But I do know if the bal wasn't ran the motor didn;t last very long at all sometimes a week sometime a month sometimes most of a season But with all the money you put in a good motor why not take advantage all factors that will help you with ROI cause usually you'll never use all the HP you make anyway jmo

[sj valley dave]

2 things....Joe D, sprint cars have not ran an "in/out box" for years! Super Modifieds ran those in the 60's and 70's...A slider QC just engages the spur gear or not.....Living Truth, a Fluid Dampner is not the dampner of choice...An ATI Super Dampner is the preffered dampner of most major engine builders for circle track engines...the Fluid Dampners do well in drag racing however...

[Hammer]

I have an internally balanced 406. The question I have is can I knock the weight off of a balancer and just run the inside of the balancer without the weight?

I was told since it was internally balanced then all I need is a place to hook up the lower pullies and that the balancer part was just a waste of weight.

Thanks for your help.

IMO just buy the best one you can afford this is one area i don't chimp on for a race motor theres alot of harmonics going on. i think ati are the best in my Little mind

[TBRE]

Like stated above, they are dampers, not balancers.
When it comes to dampers, there's ATI, and then there's all the rest.
We do use the little Powerbond on some lower classes that run lower RPM's.
Back in the day, there were some fluid dampers getting out with no fluid in them. They do have (if they have fluid) some applications where they work good (which is what they were designed for). In constant RPM's, like a diesel engine in a truck, or a highway cruiser.
Back in the time I was refering to, Chevrolet did a damper test, on a cup car, at a track, and found that the Fluid Damper was doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to take the harmonics out of the engine. Not trying to slam anyones product, just trying to save you guys from wasting your money.
As far as not running a damper, yes sprinters do it, but even with the water pump on the front, their life expectancy isn't what other avenues see.TB

[perfconn]

Nothing to rebuild on an ATI except o-rings

[stpmotorsports]

We just sent our ATI super damper in for a freshen and they sent it back and said it was worn beyond repair. It looked fine on the outside and showed no signs of damage. There must be something in them that wears.

[perfconn]

Had many of them apart and there is nothing to wear out except o-rings.It could have had a groove wore in the hub where the timing cover seal runs but all that would require would be a new hub.

[stockcar5]

ati told me they recommend rebuilds every time the motor is rebuilt. i think this is overkill. i do mine every other year (80 nights). ati will also recommend what durometer of orings to use based on your application. they also sell a rebuild tool kit to make it easier.

[sj valley dave]

We just had our current SB2.2 gone through and when Hendrens pulled the ATI off the crank, it was galled...Could not pull the hub off the outer, so we got a new aluminum hubbed ATI...saved a little reciprocating weight! LOL

[Graff Spee]

We have a limited engine that we use a solid aluminum ballancer on. (we made it on the lathe) This engine has a crower ultra lite weight 4340 crank in it. It has been run for many years like this with no bearing issues. We have also run this in selected late model shows with a forward to mid pack finish. Why have we not had problems? It is a small cube (358) 18 degree engine. What are we doing wrong?