602 cooling lines question.

[stockcar5]

dyno has been getting laughed off of the speedtalk forum lately. i figured it was only a matter of time before he slithered back over here.

dyno tried to tell a guy over there that he goes into hendricks all the time and they let him scour through the parts room..lol. little did he know he tried telling that to a guy that has work at hendricks for 15 years...opps...lol.

yea c'mon

[dynoman14]

Looks to me like the guy didn't know much about a water pump, the associated ports for in and out on water, and also not much about cooling a SBC Crate as his buddy just got this one.

If the answer had more information than you could handle or process or wanted to know about, skip over it. Like I said if you don't like my posts or threads tune out.

As for Speedtalk, not so sure anybody over there has called me out, kinda funny when I mentioned playing poker with his boss on a regular basis he kinda never answered me back. He wanted to know why he had not met me and I guess the folks I was dealing with might have been above his pay grade. no biggie. My feelings are not hurt cause he don't know me. Who the hell is he and what does he do? Did he ever say??? He might be a parts washer for all I know, not downing the job as they make $50-60K a year as it is a very important job in tear down and cleaning. Next job is usually engine builder apprentice.

There are over 2000 employees at HMS and probably another couple hundred at different off site shops that perform testing and manufacturing for different parts of the company. This dude was one of the many I never met because I only dealt with at most 10 people at HMS during my 25 years of dealing with them. The first person I ever met there was a driver for the team and his name was Rick Hendrick, my first visit there I sold him $2500 worth of new style one piece pushrods that were big OD, thin wall and swedged with heat treated tips. My comission was 25% of what I sold. I had my 89 Suburban full to the roof with them at at the end of the week after visiting 27 CUP engine builders, I had sold $67,000.00 worth of pushrods. They were the new thing and Bill Nolan was making them out of his house in FLA after being let go by Crane Cams. Nolan told me to keep $20K and bring him down the rest. It was 100% cash business and that is the way it was back then.

Shortly after that I started selling rocker arms for Bill and his partner Larry. Rick bought about $30K worth of them first order and it was on like Donkey Kong. The rocker arm shop became known as T&D and HMS still uses them by the thousand.

I loved it cause it was like the old gold mining days, nobody to compete against and I had a ton of sales contacts. I made about $50-60K commission a month for probably for 5 years and sold the business to another guy and he ran it into the ground. BSR, CV, RDI and a bunch of others then came along and sucked up all the accounts.

I bought a house, SuperFlow Bench and Superflow Chassis dyno and the rest is history.

Now all I do is sit around an buy & sell Bank Of America stock 30-40 times a day before lunch and then play with crate engines and whatever else I want to do. I have 11-604's in the floor to get finished in the next month so I will be busy for a while.

[stockcar5]

getting called out by mike jones of jones cams on your crate camshaft/rpm theories was funny as well!

[dirty white boy]

if ya cant impress them with talent,..baffle them with bull chit....

[sj valley dave]

I know what you mean Stockcar5...there are a few guys over there that listen and seem to really think about Dyno's theories, but there are more than twice as many that hammer him for the non ending name dropping, exaggerated claims, etc...I have said before, he will bring up a few things that will make you think, ummhh, interesting, but for the most part...

[DaveBauerSS6]

I know what you mean Stockcar5...there are a few guys over there that listen and seem to really think about Dyno's theories, but there are more than twice as many that hammer him for the non ending name dropping, exaggerated claims, etc...I have said before, he will bring up a few things that will make you think, ummhh, interesting, but for the most part...

I agree..

DYNO: My question stands the same. You are thought provoking and I bet if I redirect your energy, we can get a answer that you and I could explain to our buddies. At this point I still have questions and since I am running low on energy, I need your help.

I understand running lines out of the drains. That will not solve the problem of air being trapped below the pass cylinder head. I do know the purpose of the line is to vent air , not water flow.

What I don't know is, can air be vented from the passage below the outlet of the pass of the water pump. Water is flowing out of the water pump, air is being trapped below the cylinder head which is above the pump output. The air would have to go down and around the water flowing to the block to vent to the intake.

Next question, air transfers the the lower passage in the pump into the bowl area of the pump. The recommended placement is the fitting just above the lower radiator hose. That is on the side of the bowl. Seems the fitting should be on top of the pump for the best chance of getting more air????? GM chose this side placement, why. I know thier answer, but I'm not convinced.

[drtrkr244]

Hey, Dynoman sHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Don't let all of the secrets out! I like to have an advantage every now and then. LOL

You've certainly riled up the peanut gallery tonight.

Me and Stan(our buddy from Holley) are laughing all the way to the bank1

[dynoman14]

I am not afraid of getting called out by anybody on crate questions or testing because my claims are backed by UMP, Nesmith and Fastrak wins.

Maybe you should check your facts there on that 604 Crate Cam thread; a couple posts later where I asked him to explain how his cam would check the same as stock on the cam doctor and still make +15 more HP. Still no answer to that.

One of my engine customers bought one of the cams he is talking about and we Cam Doctored it at Darrell Gabriels' and it was illegal on lift and duration and also the easiest measurement of all it had a reduced base circle.

Is that simple enough for you to understand???

Mikes questions to me were about cam loft with a hydraulic lifter, if you are not smart enough to figure that out maybe you might should find another business other than selling cheated up cams to racers as Fastrak legal cams.

I still see the peanut gallery here is composed of the same folks. It's a shame they are street stock racers and most have never sat in a Late-Model or Crate Late.

Dave B,
As you will note, my quote referenced as purge surge tank that returns water into the top of the water pump from an overflow container mounted above the level of the cylinder heads. That is for most cases, in the case of using Hi-pressure water pumps air pockets or bubbles are usually not present due to the operation of the system. If you fill the top radiator hose until water comes out of the radiator and then burp the system once or twice after initial start-up you should never get air into the system unless you over heat and suck air back in.

Thanks 244,
I know you guys are rolling...I guess them 20 year old issues are not so easy for most of the lemmings to google search and find. If you want to learn about water pumps call Howard Stewart and he'll tell you. Ooops does that count as name dropping. When I was a Regional Manager for Domino's I used to take him pizza's to his place in High Point. That and a couple C notes would usually get me a master carton of 12 pumps.

[dirty white boy]

lolololololololol,..dayuumm!

[DaveBauerSS6]

I am not afraid of getting called out by anybody on crate questions or testing because my claims are backed by UMP, Nesmith and Fastrak wins.

Maybe you should check your facts there on that 604 Crate Cam thread; a couple posts later where I asked him to explain how his cam would check the same as stock on the cam doctor and still make +15 more HP. Still no answer to that.

One of my engine customers bought one of the cams he is talking about and we Cam Doctored it at Darrell Gabriels' and it was illegal on lift and duration and also the easiest measurement of all it had a reduced base circle.

Is that simple enough for you to understand???

Mikes questions to me were about cam loft with a hydraulic lifter, if you are not smart enough to figure that out maybe you might should find another business other than selling cheated up cams to racers as Fastrak legal cams.

I still see the peanut gallery here is composed of the same folks. It's a shame they are street stock racers and most have never sat in a Late-Model or Crate Late.

Dave B,
As you will note, my quote referenced as purge surge tank that returns water into the top of the water pump from an overflow container mounted above the level of the cylinder heads. That is for most cases, in the case of using Hi-pressure water pumps air pockets or bubbles are usually not present due to the operation of the system. If you fill the top radiator hose until water comes out of the radiator and then burp the system once or twice after initial start-up you should never get air into the system unless you over heat and suck air back in.

Thanks 244,
I know you guys are rolling...I guess them 20 year old issues are not so easy for most of the lemmings to google search and find. If you want to learn about water pumps call Howard Stewart and he'll tell you. Ooops does that count as name dropping. When I was a Regional Manager for Domino's I used to take him pizza's to his place in High Point. That and a couple C notes would usually get me a master carton of 12 pumps.

Dyno, Thanks for the response. You used two words in your reply that MAY give me trouble.

Usually, if you used the word Eliminated I would feel better.
Should, if you used Will I would feel better.

I understand there are no guarantees in racing. I am at a loss as to why GM didn't recommend a high pressure remote system, instead of the by pass line. My guess is the head blocks the normal path of bleeding air .

Would it be possible for you to ask Howard his views on this??? Looks like there are alot of questions.

Thanks, Dave

[dynoman14]

Dave,
Since I don't understand your cryptic response, I will let some of the other experts that obviously know more than me here help you out. All I know is what solves the heating problems associated with the SBC, not the semantics on how to say it right so you feel more comfortable.

BTW the small hole under the water pump opening is a pressure bypass hole in case of blockcage of the system so the hoses on your radiator and heater etc don't blow up everywhere.

GM recommends 6200rpm max on a 604 crate, How many people do you think follow that??? My engine customers stuff runs 6800-7000 and lives and nobody I know recommends that.

Do you really think GM recommended 50-100psi water systems to CUP teams??? It was the normal progression of learning to cool siamesed cylinder engines as well as high-output engines with minimal suface area to vent in cooling air. Especially when the 2 exhaust valves are together on the exhaust like almost all GM v-8 engines.

As far as Howard goes, he sold the water pump company to some guys in Michigan, buy a pump from them and you get a book on how to use it. Looks like your time might be better spent picking up a physics book and learning about the water molecule and how pressure affects molecular changes in water.

I sure don't need GM to explain to me that increasing pressure increased the BP of water and that once you increase the BP and Pressure you reduce the chances of air pockets getting in the cooling system. Why do you think cars now have closed systems with no radiator cap and a purge bottle on the fenderwell???

BTW, My calls to Howard are about family, fishing, stock trading and how things are going. Water pumps are the furtherest things from our discussions.

[DaveBauerSS6]

Dyno,,, I don't mean to be cryptic; My point is I listen/ read words said.
The statement " This might work" is completely different then " This will work". Some may see these as the same. I don't.
I have a lot of irons in the fire and I have no problem sourcing out my answers. And I in turn share what I know.
I understand racers will run the motors over the suggested limit by GM. The number was for a standard to gauge by. GM's intent is for these motors to live and racers to have a motor to race with. The bypass line is same. But you will not loose a race/ hurt the motor if the line is venting air. Over reving the motor will shorten the life. I feel this is worth understanding. I do know that the GM tech line answer for the line was to purge trapped air under the head. According to the physics book I read as pressure increases, all that will happen is the air "bubble " will compress; and without a passage will continue to live there, creating a hot spot. This high pressure system isn't reasonable in a crate type application. The nitrogen cooling system would be more reasonable then that.

Do you have any ideas as to who we should talk to? You seem to know a lot of people.


BTW,
"Why do you think cars now have closed systems with no radiator cap and a purge bottle on the fenderwell???"
My answer is that there are radiator caps on cars. They look a little different, made of plastic, no relief lever, seals with o ring on the side as opposed to a flat washer, and they all vent on over pressure to the ground. The radiator caps are mounted on a purge bottle to the fenderwell for the purpose of being higher then the motor. Here again the ability to purge air from the motor to a higher point. Try looking at a 97 Chevy Monte 3.1, plumbing everywhere, 2 vent screws all to get the air to the purge tank. The designers keep lowering the noses of the darn cars.
Thanks for you help, Dave

[Egoracing]

Are they running 50-100 psi systems on the restrictor plate tracks?

[DaveBauerSS6]

Good info on that video. Thanks. I'll try PRC on Monday for some more.

[stockcar5]

jeff have you tried the de-aeration kit? seems pretty simple. if so how do they work?

[dynoman14]

Ego,
NASCAR has come in and regulated pop off pressures to make the cars run hot. Have you not been watching the races for the last couple years.

NASCAR is regulating how teams cool engines to limit hooking 2 cars up for longer that a couple laps.

Those engines lose tons of HP once they get too hot. Problem is once they pop they go from 250* @ say 30psi to 350* at atmospheric. Once that happens you have to refill the system under pressure or the water will never build up the proper pressure once it has bypassed the original boiling point of 212*F.

That is why non-pressurized system cars that run hot always run hot. I always put a schrader valve on my thermostat housing and if needed the water system could be topped off and once closed off you jack the air pressure to about 25# and let it eat.

People always asked me why I put air in my radiator top radiator hose and I said I was setting the hose stagger so the thing would corner better.

[stockcar5]

oh yeah... fyi I talked to krc a few weeks ago about pro series serp pulleys, they are not harder or coated any different, they look different depending on the color mix that day I was told.

I was at the track with my hobbys and tried to move the fan on one and couldnt. It had double v belts. I can always turn mine easily so I called krc to see if the pro series would help.

Based on talking to them I switched to the 4.5 diameter pulleys as well as bought a idler from them. The larger diameter pulleys and the idler both give the belt more surface area on the pulleys. They said I shouldnt be able to move the fan until the motor moves to take up the chain slop... With it all installed now I cant move the fan period. I used the idler only to take up the belt slack so my ps pump is now fixed in position and I wont have to mess with it.

Just thought I would pass this on since I know your running the same pulleys and me and you told me the pro series were better.. jj

yep thats the same thing krc told me. larger puller=more surface area. they said all of their pulleys are hard coated. i noticed way less wear on my pulley this year and i hink i had to retighten my belt once or twice this year. not enough times to remember anyway.

[Egoracing]

Ego,
NASCAR has come in and regulated pop off pressures to make the cars run hot. Have you not been watching the races for the last couple years.

NASCAR is regulating how teams cool engines to limit hooking 2 cars up for longer that a couple laps.

Those engines lose tons of HP once they get too hot. Problem is once they pop they go from 250* @ say 30psi to 350* at atmospheric. Once that happens you have to refill the system under pressure or the water will never build up the proper pressure once it has bypassed the original boiling point of 212*F.

That is why non-pressurized system cars that run hot always run hot. I always put a schrader valve on my thermostat housing and if needed the water system could be topped off and once closed off you jack the air pressure to about 25# and let it eat.

People always asked me why I put air in my radiator top radiator hose and I said I was setting the hose stagger so the thing would corner better.

FYI the pop off valves are 25psi.

[brad hibbard]

The port is on the drivers side between the head and the thermo housing. Its a 3/8 pipe plug with a hole about 3/16 to 1/4 size behind it to the water jacket. You can see the port thru the thermo mount. Several guys that have bought new 602s say it is in the info that comes with the motor. We are looking for a copy. GM recommends it be plumbed to the lower hose area of the water pump?
Sorry about the vagueness of the question.
Thanks for any help.

OK --back to the original question
I sold a 602 today and pulled the factory supplied information from the crate----read it word for word and then letter for letter and never saw anything about cooling lines

If anyone can quote a certain GM bulliten or reference please do so---i would really like to see what they are talking about in there informational hand outs before I approach the engineers.

thanks
Brad

[DaveBauerSS6]

Have the manual that comes with a 602 purchase.

Quote.
Title: CT350 Circle Track Engine 19258602- specifications
Rev 19ja10
Part # 8896057
Page 2 of 33
Cylinder heads: Last paragraph - Any small block engine, regardless of year , that uses Vortec heads, will require an external coolant bypass line from the intake manifold to the 5/8" hose nipple on the water pump (passenger side). Suggested routing is from the 3/8 NPSF boss on intake manifold to the water pump.
End Quote.




Some guys read this and have the bypass and others don't. Will call GM hot line Tuesday and question the purpose and the placement.

This was off the manual that came with a 602 purchased here in Cali 30 days ago.